Question: If I am OCing and someone makes a move for my gun....

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Ian wrote:

You can't be serious. Protecting your weapon IS protecting your life. You bet your ass that if someone trying to get your weapon from you (Non LE) it is a THREAT TO YOUR LIFE. If someone reaches and tries to grab my pistol, I can clearly present a case that I was in fear of my life. Now, they might choose to cease being a threat when they are faced with the possibility of "lead poisoning," so lethal force may not be necessary once I re-assess the situation. Of course, I carry in a level 3 Serpa, I doubt anyone trying to take my gun could even figure out how to get it out of the holster.

On another note, if you're carrying a gun and you're not a police officer I wouldn't suggest carrying anything else such as a taser or pepper spray. If you do end up having to use deadly force, you could have some trouble in court and the jury could be made to believe that you wanted to kill the perp because you had other non-lethal means to defend yourself.

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Sonora Rebel wrote:

Pepper Spray?Get serious! Defensive display is recognized most places... 'n the next step is to shoot the SOB. If you cannot DO that... don't carry a gun.

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Do you guys actually think these things through? How about defensive scenerio training? What do you plan to do when the scenerio does not justify deadly force? Youcannot justify "defensive display" of a firearmas some lower level of self defense. This implies that you are prepared to use deadly force and you must be in a situation where this deadly force can be justified. It is all wonderful and great that you are carrying and are prepared to shoot someone, butyou had better be prepared to defend your actions in court. If you can not justify deadly force, you are screwed. Pepper Spray gives you a less than lethal option when deadly force is not justified.

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Carnivore wrote:

I would call that an assault on your person, and you not only are in the right to protect yourself, you are obligated to make sure you don't make your firearm available to anyone that you don't know their intentions or legal status.

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Having the right to protect yourself and having the justification to use deadly force are 2 different animals.

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Interceptor_Knight wrote:

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Sonora Rebel wrote:

Pepper Spray?Get serious! Defensive display is recognized most places... 'n the next step is to shoot the SOB. If you cannot DO that... don't carry a gun.

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Do you guys actually think these things through? How about defensive scenerio training? What do you plan to do when the scenerio does not justify deadly force? Youcannot justify "defensive display" of a firearmas some lower level of self defense. This implies that you are prepared to use deadly force and you must be in a situation where this deadly force can be justified. It is all wonderful and great that you are carrying and are prepared to shoot someone, butyou had better be prepared to defend your actions in court. If you can not justify deadly force, you are screwed. Pepper Spray gives you a less than lethal option when deadly force is not justified.

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If somebody's trying to take your gun... you have every justifiable right to kill 'em if that's what it takes to stop 'em. Now you can wander around with a belt fulla ninja gadgets... 'n ahead fulla imaginary what-if scenarios,but I just carry a pistol. If someone tries to take that pistol... I'm gonna seriously ruin their day or die in the attempt. You do not surrender the pistol... You do not play games... While you're fartin' around with a spray can you're just as likely toget ventilated with your own gun. While you're all worried up about Court... the perp is gonna do you. You're talkin' in 'seconds'... fractions of seconds to make decisions. I already know I'm a junk yard dog. BTDT!

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If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. If you are a Junk Yard Dog, then you certainly do not need to draw your weapon if all someone is doing is lunging for it......

A gun is a tool. You should have more tools that just a gun at your disposal. You are apparently more eager to spend time in prison than am I.....

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Realistically speaking in this situation the OP was aware he was being eyeballed and should have met any lunge head on with his gun hip turned back away from attack. IF someone does manage to get a hand on your gun the easiest defense is to seize hold of their thumb and bend it sharply toward them while holding downward pressure against your holster (think peeling). You will quickly break or at least dislocate the thumb and not only will they probably lose all interest in your gun they likely won't even be able to grab it with that hand.

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Interceptor_Knight wrote:

If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. If you are a Junk Yard Dog, then you certainly do not need to draw your weapon if all someone is doing is lunging for it......

A gun is a tool. You should have more tools that just a gun at your disposal. You are apparently more eager to spend time in prison than am I.....

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Someone lunges at me... 'constitutes an attack. I will respond in kind or whatever seems appropriate. A good lawyer can get me outta jail... but notthe cemetary.I suspect you'll hesitate... and that'll get you hurt. 'Been carryin'a pistol for a long time dude... used it to effect as a cop. 'You snooze... you'll lose.

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Sonora Rebel wrote:

I suspect you'll hesitate... and that'll get you hurt. 'Been carryin'a pistol for a long time dude... used it to effect as a cop. 'You snooze... you'll lose.

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As a cop, you may have been trained to shoot first, but that will not fly out here in the world of the common citizen...

I can assure you that I do not hesitate to act. As you should be, I am both trained and experienced in the use of varying levels of force. In the Corps on guard duty Ihad my M16 and a club. Often times only a club. If I would have shot every drunk that lunged at me, I would still be in federal prison. As a bouncer in the 1st Civ Div I was not allowed to carry any weapons and I did just fine, even against mulitple drunks.

Being ready to shoot at thefirst sign of trouble and having the gun as your only tool is the stereotypical cowboy that the anti gun people arepredicting will be out there if we allow unrestricted open carry everywhere.

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If somebody's trying to take your gun... you have every justifiable right to kill 'em if that's what it takes to stop 'em. Now you can wander around with a belt fulla ninja gadgets... 'n ahead fulla imaginary what-if scenarios,but I just carry a pistol. If someone tries to take that pistol... I'm gonna seriously ruin their day or die in the attempt. You do not surrender the pistol... You do not play games... While you're fartin' around with a spray can you're just as likely toget ventilated with your own gun. While you're all worried up about Court... the perp is gonna do you. You're talkin' in 'seconds'... fractions of seconds to make decisions. I already know I'm a junk yard dog. BTDT!




amen +1

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AvianP wrote:

If I am OCing and someone makes a move for my gun, what are my legal responses. Can I unholster my weapon to protect it w/o being charged with brandishing?

I am concerned because I noticed a guy checking me out at a store yesterday, and then over the next 15 minutes, he tried to stay at my 6 o'clock as much as he could. He didn't seem intimidated at it, and the look I saw in his eyes when he saw my gun was "I want that". If he had moved up behind me and placed his hand on the handle of my gun, I would break a few of his fingers pretty easily.....but the question remains. If someone lunges at my pistol, what can I do to protect it and me?

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AvianP wrote:

My perception was that the look hung too long. I can't exactly put my finger on what was creeping me out. I intentionally turned around to make eye contact numerous times as he checked out items about 20 feet behind me. The thing that got my attention was that after I turned around the first time to check my 6 and talk to my GF, he was there about 20 feet back, looking at my gun, but moving in the middle of the aisle with us. I went into the next section with my GF(washers & dryers), and leaned face-out on one while my GF looked around. The Guy was the next one to take the left into washers and dryers. I basically chilled there just observing, projecting the fact that I was aware of him. He left the section, but was still hanging a couple of aisles away, facing us when I walked out. We left after that for that reason. I wasn't, nor was my GF trying to force some sort of confrontation.

He was a tall, gangly (not unlike myself), kinda scruffy guy. Not scruffy like a beard but had a very weathered face for what seemed to be his age. I took it as indicative of possible homelessness at one point. Dude looked rough.

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If you had somehow gotten into a beef with this fellow, pulled out the ole pistola and the guy turned out to be a non-threat and you would have gotten charged for some gun violation and you ended up in court.....

...the prosecutor would have a fun time with you and your observations and conclusions.

It would not be fun for you, however.

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For once I actually agree with Hank here, if the guy is 20 feet away you have nothing to worry about unless he is Stretch Armstrong. Anything you did from 20 feet away would get you incarcerated, if the guy was trying to play coy and get right up behind you then don't be shy and tell him to back the #*@% off (make a point of moving first)! If the guy wants to be a problem after that you can unholster the right tool and call a cop to come collect him and toss him in the loony bin because he is obviously mentally incompetent to be harassing someone who is obviously armed.

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FrankC wrote:

For once I actually agree with Hank here, if the guy is 20 feet away you have nothing to worry about unless he is Stretch Armstrong. Anything you did from 20 feet away would get you incarcerated, if the guy was trying to play coy and get right up behind you then don't be shy and tell him to back the #*@% off (make a point of moving first)! If the guy wants to be a problem after that you can unholster the right tool and call a cop to come collect him and toss him in the loony bin because he is obviously mentally incompetent to be harassing someone who is obviously armed.

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Don't forget stretch Armstrong could stretch an arm maybe a foot any further and his skin breaks and he oozes syrup.

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Sonora Rebel wrote:

Interceptor_Knight wrote:

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Sonora Rebel wrote:

Pepper Spray?Get serious! Defensive display is recognized most places... 'n the next step is to shoot the SOB. If you cannot DO that... don't carry a gun.

Click to expand...

Do you guys actually think these things through? How about defensive scenerio training? What do you plan to do when the scenerio does not justify deadly force? Youcannot justify "defensive display" of a firearmas some lower level of self defense. This implies that you are prepared to use deadly force and you must be in a situation where this deadly force can be justified. It is all wonderful and great that you are carrying and are prepared to shoot someone, butyou had better be prepared to defend your actions in court. If you can not justify deadly force, you are screwed. Pepper Spray gives you a less than lethal option when deadly force is not justified.

Click to expand...

If somebody's trying to take your gun... you have every justifiable right to kill 'em if that's what it takes to stop 'em. Now you can wander around with a belt fulla ninja gadgets... 'n ahead fulla imaginary what-if scenarios,but I just carry a pistol. If someone tries to take that pistol... I'm gonna seriously ruin their day or die in the attempt. You do not surrender the pistol... You do not play games... While you're fartin' around with a spray can you're just as likely toget ventilated with your own gun. While you're all worried up about Court... the perp is gonna do you. You're talkin' in 'seconds'... fractions of seconds to make decisions. I already know I'm a junk yard dog. BTDT!

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Exactly, this is a perfectly good example of justification to use deadly force. I can clearly articulate that I feared for my life.

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Ian wrote:

Sonora Rebel wrote:

Interceptor_Knight wrote:

.

Sonora Rebel wrote:

Pepper Spray?Get serious! Defensive display is recognized most places... 'n the next step is to shoot the SOB. If you cannot DO that... don't carry a gun.

Click to expand...

Do you guys actually think these things through? How about defensive scenerio training? What do you plan to do when the scenerio does not justify deadly force? Youcannot justify "defensive display" of a firearmas some lower level of self defense. This implies that you are prepared to use deadly force and you must be in a situation where this deadly force can be justified. It is all wonderful and great that you are carrying and are prepared to shoot someone, butyou had better be prepared to defend your actions in court. If you can not justify deadly force, you are screwed. Pepper Spray gives you a less than lethal option when deadly force is not justified.

Click to expand...

If somebody's trying to take your gun... you have every justifiable right to kill 'em if that's what it takes to stop 'em. Now you can wander around with a belt fulla ninja gadgets... 'n ahead fulla imaginary what-if scenarios,but I just carry a pistol. If someone tries to take that pistol... I'm gonna seriously ruin their day or die in the attempt. You do not surrender the pistol... You do not play games... While you're fartin' around with a spray can you're just as likely toget ventilated with your own gun. While you're all worried up about Court... the perp is gonna do you. You're talkin' in 'seconds'... fractions of seconds to make decisions. I already know I'm a junk yard dog. BTDT!

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Exactly, this is a perfectly good example of justification to use deadly force. I can clearly articulate that I feared for my life.

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How does this relate to the situation described by the OP, I?

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FunkTrooper wrote:

FrankC wrote:

For once I actually agree with Hank here, if the guy is 20 feet away you have nothing to worry about unless he is Stretch Armstrong. Anything you did from 20 feet away would get you incarcerated, if the guy was trying to play coy and get right up behind you then don't be shy and tell him to back the #*@% off (make a point of moving first)! If the guy wants to be a problem after that you can unholster the right tool and call a cop to come collect him and toss him in the loony bin because he is obviously mentally incompetent to be harassing someone who is obviously armed.

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Don't forget stretch Armstrong could stretch an arm maybe a foot any further and his skin breaks and he oozes syrup.

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Mmm syrup

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Actually any justification for use of deadly force by ANYONE (except maybe personnel guarding valuable military or defense assets such as nukes, top secret stuff, or- gag me - "President" Obama - ) or in some cases to stop the escape of a dangerous felon; in most cases MUST be based on fear for innocent life, and all the better if it is YOUR innocent life.

In Virginia, starting an argument that escalates to physical combat can be seen to varying degrees as contributing to the situation and may well diminish or eliminate the self-defense argument. Thus, when I am armed I am the politest, most agreeable person you could ever hope to meet. Somebody tries to engage me in a discussion about our Fearless Idiot Leader, I tell them I don't read newspapers but I am sure they are right.

Trying to snatch a firearm by anyone other than a clearly identified police officer is a threat to your life. A mall security officer who tries to rush you could be an impostor. The advantage one has in that kind of situation is the ubiquitous surveillance; if he says he did so because you were "brandishing" the video should put the lie to it.

Although I understand that the "obligation to attempt to flee" has been modified, I would rather flee than fire. However, I will not flee from or away from my own domicile. Get between me and my castle and it is blammo time.

Any shooting however MUST be backed up by the assertion "I was in fear for my life" OR "I thought he was going to kill her" etc. Protecting precious innocent life is the ONLY sure-fire justification for use of lethal force (I am NOT a lawyer, BTW).

My philosophy about using force is this: "Physical violence is only justified in preventing physical violence against yourself or an innocent third party; and even then; ONLY so much physical violence as is necessary to end the threat".

Questions?

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I'm wondering what degree of insanity a person must be possessed of to NOT seriously and violently damage a person trying to seize a carried weapon.

If someone tries to take my weapon, my retaliation won't cease until s/he is no longer physically capable of doing so.

Broken, fingers, face, ribs, possibly neck... And if needed, 2 to the chest and one to the forehead.

I may ne even get a look at them until step 3 or 4, so Mall Ninjas are no exception. I really can't imagine a Police Officer being that outrageously stupid, but I think I remember reading a report of one in Vermont a few years back. Guy was OC w/ buttcrack CC holster...

I'm strongly considering Crossdraw when my Silent Thunder for PT1911AR gets here... Which brings up a question... Of the few people I've seen OCing long guns, the weapon was slung across the back... I can't imagine this being a very accessible way to carry, and seems it would be entirely operable and accessible to someone behind you before you could even get to it yourself...?

For those who carry crossdraw, do you practice drawing in a way that does not sweep across? How do you compare your speed to being on target with 'normal' position draw?

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Frank C and HankT, im not talking about shooting this random from 20 feet away. He made me aware by eyeballing my gun, and I only happened to catch that because I was looking at the right time. He then showed up in more than one other spot I was in and it raised a question in my mind about the question I had at the beginning of this thread. Im not claiming he was there to disarm me or do anything but look at upscale washing machines and dryers also. He just seemed slightly out of place for what he was doing. From computer software to washers and dryers to the African Tribal music section, it didn't vibe with me.

And HankT, my lawyer would handle all my observations and conclusions before anyone, so no worries there.

There is no way I would let this guy get within 2 or 3 arm lengths of me before I faced him, moved aside and let him pass me while letting him know I'm in no mood for getting eyeballed by him.

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AvianP wrote:

Frank C and HankT, im not talking about shooting this random from 20 feet away. He made me aware by eyeballing my gun, and I only happened to catch that because I was looking at the right time. He then showed up in more than one other spot I was in and it raised a question in my mind about the question I had at the beginning of this thread. Im not claiming he was there to disarm me or do anything but look at upscale washing machines and dryers also. He just seemed slightly out of place for what he was doing. From computer software to washers and dryers to the African Tribal music section, it didn't vibe with me.

And HankT, my lawyer would handle all my observations and conclusions before anyone, so no worries there.

There is no way I would let this guy get within 2 or 3 arm lengths of me before I faced him, moved aside and let him pass me while letting him know I'm in no mood for getting eyeballed by him.

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People who follow me around presuming I don't notice just get a continuous hard stare until they go away. Hasn't a thing to do with a gun or anything else. Creepy people following me around are up to no good and I don't like it. Or, just walk over, say hello, and ask why they are following you around. "Hi. I was wondering why you keep trying to stand behind me, aren't looking at any of the products near you, and are always showing up where I am?"

Unless, I WANT them to think I don't notice... If you're in a situation that might warrant letting them think they have an advantage that they actually don't have... It probably isn't in a store. ;-)

If they don't want to be seen, just make it painfully clear that they are being seen... And be aware that this guy may just be a distraction to hold your attention while someone else you haven't noticed, etc, whatever, you get the idea.

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Carnivore wrote:

I would call that an assault on your person, and you not only are in the right to protect yourself, you are obligated to make sure you don't make your firearm available to anyone that you don't know their intentions or legal status.

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AvianP, that's why I said at the beginning of this thread to break his thumb if he actually tried to take your gun. FWIW I had someone following me inside a store this summer eyeballing my right hip(CC), my response after taking several turns was to turn and start walking toward him. The guys eyes got pretty big and he backed up around the corner of the aisle, I turned around and went back to what I was doing. My point was to attempt to keep others away from your gun before it became a matter of you shooting them.