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Thread: Identification w/CPL required?

  1. #1
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    I couldn't find anything in the RCW to indicate that one must show ID to LEO when showing a CPL. Since my last "incident," I took my CPL out of my wallet and put it in a little hunting license carrier thing, and generally don't carry ID, so next time they ask for ID when they stop me "sorry officer, I don't have any on me, but here's my license, all the I am lawfully required to show you..."
    Is there any legal problems with that? (And I am talking about concealed or semi-concealed.)

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    cynicist wrote:
    I couldn't find anything in the RCW to indicate that one must show ID to LEO when showing a CPL. Since my last "incident," I took my CPL out of my wallet and put it in a little hunting license carrier thing, and generally don't carry ID, so next time they ask for ID when they stop me "sorry officer, I don't have any on me, but here's my license, all the I am lawfully required to show you..."
    Is there any legal problems with that? (And I am talking about concealed or semi-concealed.)
    Not quoting the law, but if they have your CPL... They pretty much already have what they need, to know who you are. It is partly your ID (can be used to ID you).

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    Regular Member killchain's Avatar
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    Always carry your ID. How are they supposed to know who you are? How do they know it's YOUR concealed pistol license?

    If that were the case I could pack my father's license, or yours, or that person's...

    More hassle than it's worth. Just show the officer your identification with it.
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -John Stuart Mill

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    If you are open carrying then leave your CPL in the car. Or if you are walking, leave it at home. Just carry your Drivers License. Don't need your CPL to OC.

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    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    How about, don't carry your CPL if you're open carrying, and also don't carry your driver's license/Wa state ID... Nothing says you have to carry ID with you. Come on... this isn't "cold war Russia". You have no requirement to carry identification.
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    I don't necessarily agree that you have to show any cop who asks for it your CPL if you are open carrying.

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    NavyLT wrote:
    killchain wrote:
    Always carry your ID. How are they supposed to know who you are? How do they know it's YOUR concealed pistol license?

    If that were the case I could pack my father's license, or yours, or that person's...

    More hassle than it's worth. Just show the officer your identification with it.
    It's more hassle than it's worth to stand up for our constitutional rights? And, BTW, what states that "they" "have to know" who we are?

    To the OP,

    We reasoned out here on the board that it is required by RCWto show your CPL anytime a COP asks for it. HOWEVER, you are only required tohave the CPL in your possession if you are carrying concealed or loaded in the vehicle. You are NOT required by RCW to have in your possession any other form of ID, except your driver's license when you are driving. IF you are officially DETAINED, then you are required to provide identification to the officer, IF you have it in your possession.

    So, let's walk through a scenario:

    MWAG call. You are open carrying on foot. You have in your possession, even though not required, your CPL and your DL. Cop asks you for your CPL. You are required by RCW to show it to him even though it is not required to be in your possession. You are NOT required by RCW to show your DL to him until the encounter becomes an official detainment under RAS of committing a violation. Now, if you don't have your CPL in your possession and you don't have any other form of ID in your possession, you are good to go, whether or not it becomes an official detainment, because you obviously can't produce what you don't possess and there is no law requiring possession. The cop is violating the 4th amendment if he coerces you into providing ID in a situation other than an official detainment with RAS of committing a violation, but is not violating RCW in asking for your CPL.
    Not true.

    Washington DOES NOT HAVE a stop and identify statute, so regardless if they have RAS of a crime or not, YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED BY LAW to identify yourself.

    See also: Law Enforcement Digest, Aug '04

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    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    killchain wrote:
    Always carry your ID. How are they supposed to know who you are? How do they know it's YOUR concealed pistol license?

    If that were the case I could pack my father's license, or yours, or that person's...

    More hassle than it's worth. Just show the officer your identification with it.
    Sure, it's "more hassle than it is worth." And, if the nice officer asks if he can just have a little look inside your car, then let him look to his heart's content, because you have nothing to hide, and it is "more hassle than it's worth." And, if a friendly LEO stops by your house and wants to come in, just go right ahead and invite him in. Once again, you have nothing to hide, and it is just "more hassle than it's worth."

    Why do you want to give away your rights so easily? Many brave young Americans have died to protect your rights, but you are more than happy to give them away, because it's "more hassle than it's worth."

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    A Washington CPL is valid as a Washington ID. My last trip to DOL I was required to show 2 forms of ID and was told the CPL was accepted.

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    olypendrew wrote:
    I don't necessarily agree that you have to show any cop who asks for it your CPL if you are open carrying.
    You do not have to show your CPL when you are open carrying, unless you are within/on a vehicle.

    I am still unsure what is requiredin the case where a LEO has seen me come out of a car (past tense). At the time that he asks (while out of the car), I will no longer be required to show my CPL (or even my DL). However, I think that is defining things a bit too strictly. I believe that I will show him my CPL to support the fact that I have not just committed a crime.

    Since I just exited a vehicle, I would show him my DL too. That is about the only time when I think resisting the officer's request for ID is "More hassle than it's worth". At that point, the officer could claim that I was in violation of the law that requires me to provide my DL when operating a vehicle, even though that requirement had passed once I exited the vehicle.

    I'm happy to hear thoughts on this line of reasoning.
    IBTL

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    NavyLT wrote:
    killchain wrote:
    Always carry your ID. How are they supposed to know who you are? How do they know it's YOUR concealed pistol license?

    If that were the case I could pack my father's license, or yours, or that person's...

    More hassle than it's worth. Just show the officer your identification with it.
    It's more hassle than it's worth to stand up for our constitutional rights? And, BTW, what states that "they" "have to know" who we are?

    To the OP,

    We reasoned out here on the board that it is required by RCWto show your CPL anytime a COP asks for it. HOWEVER, you are only required tohave the CPL in your possession if you are carrying concealed or loaded in the vehicle. You are NOT required by RCW to have in your possession any other form of ID, except your driver's license when you are driving. IF you are officially DETAINED, then you are required to provide identification to the officer, IF you have it in your possession.

    So, let's walk through a scenario:

    MWAG call. You are open carrying on foot. You have in your possession, even though not required, your CPL and your DL. Cop asks you for your CPL. You are required by RCW to show it to him even though it is not required to be in your possession. You are NOT required by RCW to show your DL to him until the encounter becomes an official detainment under RAS of committing a violation. Now, if you don't have your CPL in your possession and you don't have any other form of ID in your possession, you are good to go, whether or not it becomes an official detainment, because you obviously can't produce what you don't possess and there is no law requiring possession. The cop is violating the 4th amendment if he coerces you into providing ID in a situation other than an official detainment with RAS of committing a violation, but is not violating RCW in asking for your CPL.
    No we didn't. We determined that if you are concealed carrying and a cop asks, you must, not any time a cop asks. You are not required by law to show ID unless being cited for a civil infraction. Even then, they cannot demand you show your CPL.

    (b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    (b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so
    Ok, so you are saying that the word "or" separates the phrases "to any police officer" and "to any other person when and if required by law to do so". I see what you are saying and I really wish I had a good argument against it...

    I think I have something... The law states "shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license". It goes on to state "shall display the same". The solution: Don't carry your CPL when OCing and you have gotten around the ambiguous wording. You are not "required by this section to have a concealed pistol license" when OCing, and you won't be carrying your CPL, so the words "display the same" does not refer to anything
    IBTL

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    NavyLT wrote:
    I guess you could interpret the "and" in both 9.46.050 and 46.20.017 to mean that it is only required to display either your CPL or your DLupon demand in those specific circumstances where you would be required to possess it. IE: you must have it in your possession AND display it upon demand - meaning only in those circumstances required for possession. That would make more sense.
    That is the way I originally interpreted it and I like that better.

    I don't like leaving my CPL behind (in the car, etc.) even when OCing. I never know when I might need to hop in a friend's car.
    IBTL

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    The State responds that the "when and if required by law to do so" phrase
    in RCW 9.41.050(b) must be read in conjunction with subsection (a), which
    states that a person carrying a concealed pistol also must carry a license
    if the person is outside his or her home or fixed place of business.We
    agree that the two subsections read together give a police officer
    authority to demand to see a concealed pistol license when the officer
    knows a person is carrying a concealed weapon outside his or her home or
    business.See State v. Thorne, 129 Wn.2d 736, 761, 921 P.2d 514 (1996)
    (statute must be read as a whole, giving effect to all of the language
    used, with each provision being harmonized to insure proper construction).
    Under this reading of the statute, the officers were authorized to stop
    Aquino and ask to see his concealed pistol license.

    this from state v aquino; doesnt change my feeling that you only need to show your CPL if the cop knows you "need it", nor do you need to show your DLunless the cop is "investigating a driving infraction".

    its fine to carry sterile, if you know you wont drive, ride the bus, or get in your friends car while you open carry.

    you can carry all your ID even tho the cops have no right to damand to know who you are, this is not a stop and ID state, and only if youre being cited for an actual crime, then you only have to state your name and DOB,.

    Never let any LEO correrce you into divulging your SSN, tell them to pack sand!
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    First off, I was talking about concealed carry, not open carry.

    So you'd carry a CPL by itself when you conceal a pistol, knowing that if the LEO is suspicious of your eligibility of the CPL you would get detained anyway so they can find out if it's yours or not?

    The courts are going to side with a LEO who detains you to make sure you can have a pistol concealed. You can spout RCW all you want, but I guarantee that they will side with the LEO.

    Just because the law is written that you don't have to doesn't mean it's a good idea.

    If an LEO just wants to see your CPL and you show your ID in tandem, that's one long, arduous step that you can avoid. I've done it myself, and I don't feel like "my veterans died in vain" because I chose to show a driver's license.

    And I am a veteran.

    But, if you guys want to be detained and have your identity verified because you refuse to show an LEO your ID in conjunction with a CPL while concealing a pistol, be my guest.

    If you want to open carry with no form of identification, that is your right... I personally don't think it's a very good idea though.

    And really... if you're concealing a pistol competently, you shouldn't be getting stopped and questioned for it anyway.
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -John Stuart Mill

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    olypendrew wrote:
    I don't necessarily agree that you have to show any cop who asks for it your CPL if you are open carrying.
    This is how I read it to only when lawfully required to show CPL you must, if you are open carrying don't carry it I don't I leave it with my license in my car. The only way to get the "authorities" to recognize our rights is to exercise them. It's up to us and like minded folks to change the current mindset of many LEO departments.

    I was told by SAF, that it isn't a good idea but I disagree, the reason given was what if you are hit by a bus, I think at that moment ID is the least of my worries.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    46.61.020 specifies that you must actually surrender your driver's license to the cops for inspection. Notice that provision does NOT apply to the CPL in 9.41.050 - you only have to display it to the cops, it never specifies you have to surrender it to their possession.
    Title 46 only applies to the roads.


    RCW 46.08.030 Uniformity of application. The provisions of this title relating to the operation of vehicles shall be applicable and uniform upon all persons operating vehicles upon the public highways of this state, except as otherwise specifically provided."
    After a pretextual "seatbelt" stop where I was pulled over as a passenger (of course I had my seatbelt on,) I did some research on Title 46, and apparently, there is no law that states a requirement of a passenger to identify oneself, with the exception of:

    A person who is to receive a notice of civil infraction under RCW 7.80.050 is required to identify himself or herself to the enforcement officer by giving his or her name, address, and date of birth. Upon the request of the officer, the person shall produce reasonable identification, including a driver's license or identicard. A person who is unable or unwilling to reasonably
    identify himself or herself to an enforcement officer may be detained for a period of time not longer than is reasonably necessary to identify the person for purposes of issuing a civil infraction. Each agency authorized to issue civil infractions shall adopt rules on identification and detention of persons committing civil infractions.
    Of course, this can be nitpicked with a fine comb, and there usually is a way out, if you're willing to fight back.And note that there is no penalty for not identifying except they get to detain you, in which time you can berate them as to the constitutionality of the stop.


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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    When I was detained at the Museum of Glass in Tacoma, officer Olsen asked, repeatedly, for my CPL. He made a lot of claims, like he wanted to check it for me to make sure it hadn't expired. I refused to show it to him for three reasons.

    I didn't have it with me. I didn't tell him that; he assumed I had it.
    I wasn't carrying a concealed weapon. I don't carry a back-up gun for this reason.
    I asked right off if I was being detained. I wasn't, so no ID or CPL was required.

    This argument is moot if one merely asks if they're being detained. If not, WALK AWAY. If so, the officer must have RAS. Unless he or she genuinely doesn't know that OC is lawful (unlikely) it's time to start demanding for a sergeant.



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    Regular Member Machoduck's Avatar
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    "He made a lot of claims, like he wanted to check it for me to make sure it hadn't expired."

    What a generous offer on Olsen's part! How could you refuse such a magnanimous gesture? I know that I have great difficulty telling which of two dates comes before the other. Don't you? sarcasm/off

    MD

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    olypendrew wrote:
    I don't necessarily agree that you have to show any cop who asks for it your CPL if you are open carrying.
    +1. You only need a cpl when in a car or concealing. You need no license or identification to practice your constitutional right (both federal and state constitutions in our case).

    When we debate stuff like this on frivolous terms it scares a lot of people away because it makes us seem unsteady in our resolve. Open carry is legal in Washington. You don't need to have a CPL to do such.You are not obligated to carry a form of ID unless you are in operation of a vehicle. On top of that you're only obligated to disclose your DOB and name if for some reason you are stopped and detained. If something happens, let them arrest you. There are plenty of people out there with deep pockets that want to hurt agencies that blatantly ignore and abuse civil rights.

    This is America and we have rights. While it may not be the easiest road taken, nothing in life worth while is on easy street; standing up for our rights being one of them.

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    NavyLT wrote:
    G27 wrote:
    olypendrew wrote:
    I don't necessarily agree that you have to show any cop who asks for it your CPL if you are open carrying.

    On top of that you're only obligated to disclose your DOB and name if for some reason you are stopped and detained
    .
    Would you please post the citation to support your statement? That is not all of the information required according to RCWs.
    Again...if you are merely detained for investigative purposes (NOT for the purposes of issuing a citation which is a different scenario altogether) then you ARE NOT REQUIRED BY LAW to tell them anything.

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    Sorry. I poorly worded that sentence. Thanks for correcting me.

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    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    I was just thinking the same thing, only in my case it was forty years ago and the place was the South China Sea/Vietnam.

    It's hard to believe that we have to deal with these issues in our own country.

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    There seems to be a bit of misunderstanding with what I said.

    To all of you who assumed I implied that you need to show a Concealed Pistol License to open carry, you're wrong. I worded that incorrectly.

    To the original poster, the LEO shouldn't have asked for your CPL. You didn't have to show it to him. Open carry is legal in Washington State (as we all know.)

    I was just stating my opinion is that in the event I need to display my CPL I would show my other state/federal ID in conjunction. The only differences between my state ID and my CPL is a picture (at least in Washington State.) Which, well, pictures say a thousand words.

    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -John Stuart Mill

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    I am not sure what the RCWs say but personally I think any responsible adult will carry a current and valid WA DL/ and or other piece of photo ID other than a carry permit. Its just part of being a grown up. What happens if you are walking down the street and get hit by a car or jumped and left bleeding and unresponsive on the sidewalk? What happens when I show up in my Aid car or Fire Engine to help you? It really helps us out when you have somthing with your picture on it. If all I find on your person is a carry permit how it I know its really you? Like stated early in this post that could be any buddys permit.
    Weather its "legal" or not lets not try and fight the police on every little detail. We have bigger and more important battles to fight. Personally every time I get stoped by a LEO what ever the situation my DL is the first thing to come out, they never have to ask me. I would want to see it to if I was on there side
    "Fight like you train, train like you fight"

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