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Thread: Need Support at St. George City Council meeting TODAY

  1. #1
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    I will be addressing the St. George City Council today.

    Mymain topic is a St. George ordinance that prohibits firearms in city parks (clearly a violation of State firearm laws) I will also make it known that we have every right to posses firearms while at the park as well as all other city/public property and if we choose to OC those firearms, they should respect that right!

    I have open carried a few times but have never seen a cop at the time I was OCing....But I have talked to a few officers and a Washington County Sheriff Deputy. They indicated that they would stop you 100% of the time. and they don't seem to care to much about unlawful detention.I hope I'm not the only person in St. George to OC....but right now I have not seen anyone OC in this area and I have lived here for 25 years.

    It would be nice if I had some support at the city council meeting today.


    Thanks,

    Larry M.





    September 30 2009 City Council Agenda

    NOTICE OF WORK MEETING OF THE CITY COUNCIL

    OF THE CITY OF ST. GEORGE,

    WASHINGTON COUNTY, UTAH
    Public Notice

    Public notice is hereby given that the City Council of the City of St. George, Washington County, Utah, will hold a work meeting on Wednesday, September 30, 2009 commencing at 5:00 p.m. in the City Council Chambers, St. George City Office, 175 East 200 North, St. George, Utah.

    The agenda for the meeting is as follows:

    1. Comments from the public.

  2. #2
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    Good time to brush up on the laws/codes: maybe you're already planning on it but you could take copies/print outs of the different sections in the code... also be a good time to take copies of the OC pamphlet hand that out to various persons. Also be a good opportunity to express your right by OC to the meeting... I know other members have done this

    Let us know how it turns out. Sounds like some of the LE's in Washington County need to be educated.

    I know someone here in the forum was making a list of the different departments/chiefs that they were planning on contacting to get them better informed, perhaps Washington Co needs to be added

  3. #3
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    Washington County Officials need to wake up to State-wide Preemption.

    You have every Right to carry your gun in that Park.

    Just remember though,as I am sure you are already aware, keep it two actions away from firing, unless you have a Permit.

  4. #4
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    Two quick thoughts:

    1-You may want to consider whether to forgo OC tonight so as to be sure to be able to deliver you message on the illegal signage in city parks.

    2-If you do intend to OC and you believe there is a reasonably good chance of being hassled (or worse) by city police or other law enforcement types, then I HIGHLY encourage you to get a couple of people to join you, NOT in OCing, but present with various recording devices to capture the incident as evidence. You should also wear a discrete voice recorder, yourself. You could also consider placing a call to your home or other number where a recorder is running and then leaving the microphone open on your cell phone.

    If possible, I'd suggest two persons with recording devices to accompanying you. One would have an open and visible device like a video camera. The other would have a more discrete device like a cell phone camera, small web cam, or other spy type camera. These people should not be armed or otherwise give police any reason to be able to detain them, credibly shut down or seize their recording equipment, etc. They should drive a different car than you and remain far enough from you as to not be legitimately attached to you if the police dream up some lame excuse other than your gun to hassle you.

    Once you have a couple of people willing and able to act as witnesses/reporters, THEN look for a couple more to OC with you.

    Regardless, and even if you have to go it alone with just your own hidden voice recorder, you must be sure to control your tone, volume, and word choice--along with body language--when dealing with the police. You must not say or do anything to give any credibility to any claims that you posed a threat. You must be the very epitome of peaceful, calm, upstanding and law abiding citizen. I highly encourage a suit and tie as your attire, or at least a pair of slacks/khackis with a button down shirt.

    All the best.

    Charles


    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    I do have a CFP, I'm very tempted to OC but I think I will approach this in as non-confrontational as possible, by keeping it concealed at the meeting*....But i think there is a Patrick Henry get to gather next month at the park...would be a good time to see if the city is obeying the law.

    I will probably use my fanny pack....that is well worn and has the unmistakable imprint that can only be made... by the muzzle of a 45 cal

  6. #6
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    utbagpiper wrote:
    Two quick thoughts:
    ........
    All the best.

    Charles
    All good advise, thanks!

    I am going to conceal tonight, butI will bring up the legality of OC.

    I will let you know how it goes.

    I'm also of Scott/Irish Heritage....should I ask them what there feelings are on carrying a Shillelagh in the park???

  7. #7
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    Best of luck and keep us posted - I would attend if I could, but I am up north.

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    OK then…Here is the report from last night.



    I think it went really well and I will admit that I went in with some pre-conceived ideas of what I would encounter.



    I briefly presented the facts: I read the State Uniform Firearm Law (All laws reserved to the state) and then read the pertinent part that shows the only exception is regulating the discharge of a firearms (state municipal code).



    They, Council and Mayor, basically agreed with me and said that they need to be in alignment with the state code. They also agreed with me 100% that a person has a right to defend themselves by carrying a firearm (legally) while using the parks and trails.



    The OC topic came up because the mayor asked me if I was speaking of (legally) concealed. I responded that for me, I conceal carry 99% of the time but there may be reasons that some people would choose to, or need to OC because they may not be old enough to have a CFP or that they may have other legal reasons to OC. The mayor said he is aware that OC is legal.

    It was a very positive conversation.



    After the meeting I was able to have a conversation with SGPD Chief Stratton and Deputy Chief Russell Peck. They also agreed that the ordinance needs to be changed. They seam to be knowledgeable about CC laws and the legality of open-carry and told me that their procedure is that if there is a call, they will try to talk to the RP (reporting person) to see if the guy carrying the gun is doing something suspicious…(or just buying underwear while just happening to have a gun in view).

    They also went on to say that they wish people would not open carry because it freaks people out and they need to handle the calls (that can become annoying). They made it clear that it was legal and they would respect it but their personal opinion was that Concealed was a better option. They said they loved the fact that honest citizens were armed and have been helped in the past by those that took responsibility in the community.



    Larry M.



    St. George, UT

  9. #9
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    Great Work!!! - if no one brings issues like this up, then the laws will never be changed. Sounds like the city is respectful to law abiding citizens...Thanks for the post.

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    RustyShackleford wrote:
    they will try to talk to the RP (reporting person) to see if the guy carrying the gun is doing something suspicious…(or just buying underwear while just happening to have a gun in view).

    They also went on to say that they wish people would not open carry because it freaks people out and they need to handle the calls (that can become annoying). They made it clear that it was legal and they would respect it but their personal opinion was that Concealed was a better option. They said they loved the fact that honest citizens were armed and have been helped in the past by those that took responsibility in the community.
    LMAO: buying underwear?! why not buying something more masculine like mud flaps for the truck or ammo or something...

    sounds like it was a good meeting, step in the right direction. Now comes the follow up part, making sure they follow through and abide by the code, changing the signs etc.

    The comments from the LE's make me laugh: this is another prime example of "Opinion officers".... freaks people out! hell I'm freaked out when I see a BG walking around with a weapon or an LE with their utility belts loaded with tasers, guns, night sticks & what not. I don't know what the big stink is, I don't think people are as freaked out as they think. I think people are more accepting.. IMO since I've been OC'ing (since April), I've yet to get stopped, detained, or questioned by LE's (Knock on wood), perhaps it's how I conduct myself, or how I look who knows the reasons but IMO i think when someone sees the gun they automatically connect that with someone in law enforcement... oh he's a cop or off duty or military etc

    Good work



  11. #11
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    Thanks,

    I agree with you, And you make a very good pointthe overstocked utility belts that some of the cops wear... makes me wonder what they are trying to prove...I think I saw one guy that had a Sears DieHard Battery strapped to his belt. I think a lot of them love all the goodies and that in itself shows an unnecessary use of force. The officers that have been on the force for a few years finally get over that because it is just too heavy and unneccesary.....

    Open Carry in and around St. George is not common, at least I don't see it. I would like to see more of it (here)so "it doesn't freak so many people out".

    It was good to see that SGPD knows the law. However I'm not to sure about our County Sheriffs Dept. Last Thursday, I was told by a veteran deputy that if they see someone OCing they will stop them. I tried to bring up the recent case in NM and others in our state, that told cops to back off...didn't seam to matter. Last night there was a guy thatIhad conversation with. He said that a county deputy told him he could not OC in the city limits...I handed him a copy of the "Utah Gun Laws" pamphlet...as I did several others at the meeting.

    One thing for certain,we still have a lot of work to do.

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