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Thread: same old question, open carry in a car without a concealed permit

  1. #1
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    so i have been oc for the last 2 weeks now,but every thime i get back in to my car i have to unload the gun and put it back in the trunk

    the question is

    can i keep my smith and wesson while its loaded over the passenger seat even if i don't have a concealed permit


    thank you all



    i live in falls church virgina

  2. #2
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Why are you doing all that?

    You may carry it openly on the seat next to you, the dash, on your beltor anywhere else in your car where it is not hidden from common observation.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    ok thank you i will try it even when the gun is black as the night skyand the seats are black too

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    led.. I know you are new.. you might also try the search to get answers.. I search in the VA forum for OC in a car and got lots of hits, including this one:

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=31197
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
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    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

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    im on it thank you

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    led for breakfast wrote:
    ok thank you i will try it even when the gun is black as the night skyand the seats are black too
    So is my heart, but it is not hidden from common observation - I wear it on my sleeve.

    You may OC a camo gun in a camo holster while wearing BDUs and sitting on camo seatcovers. You might be called a wannabe, but your gun is NOT concealed.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  7. #7
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    led for breakfast wrote:
    ok thank you i will try it even when the gun is black as the night sky*and the seats are black too
    So is my heart, but it is not hidden from common observation - I wear it on my sleeve.

    You may OC a camo gun in a camo holster while wearing BDUs and sitting on camo seatcovers.* You might be called a wannabe, but your gun is NOT concealed.

    ***** Yata hey
    Now that I disagree with because you are hiding the "true nature" of what you are carrying.. just like the North American Arms belt buckel pistol in PLAIN SITE have been considered concealed.. (because the reasonable man does not even know it is a real gun)>
    Ed
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
    - - - -
    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

  8. #8
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    ed wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    led for breakfast wrote:
    ok thank you i will try it even when the gun is black as the night skyand the seats are black too
    So is my heart, but it is not hidden from common observation - I wear it on my sleeve.

    You may OC a camo gun in a camo holster while wearing BDUs and sitting on camo seatcovers. You might be called a wannabe, but your gun is NOT concealed.

    Yata hey
    Now that I disagree with because you are hiding the "true nature" of what you are carrying.. just like the North American Arms belt buckel pistol in PLAIN SITE have been considered concealed.. (because the reasonable man does not even know it is a real gun)>
    Ed
    The NAA belt buckle is deceiving - it looks like well, a belt buckle.

    A camo 1911 like a camo AR15 still looks like a gun - no question in my mind. Its the same as black gun, in black inside the waist band holster, worn with black shirt.

    I see nothing establishing that the color of the gun related to the color of the clothing makes any difference between OC and CC.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  9. #9
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    ed wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    led for breakfast wrote:
    ok thank you i will try it even when the gun is black as the night skyand the seats are black too
    So is my heart, but it is not hidden from common observation - I wear it on my sleeve.

    You may OC a camo gun in a camo holster while wearing BDUs and sitting on camo seatcovers. You might be called a wannabe, but your gun is NOT concealed.

    Yata hey
    Now that I disagree with because you are hiding the "true nature" of what you are carrying.. just like the North American Arms belt buckel pistol in PLAIN SITE have been considered concealed.. (because the reasonable man does not even know it is a real gun)>
    Ed
    The NAA belt buckle is deceiving - it looks like well, a belt buckle.

    A camo 1911 like a camo AR15 still looks like a gun - no question in my mind. Its the same as black gun, in black inside the waist band holster, worn with black shirt.

    I see nothing establishing that the color of the gun related to the color of the clothing makes any difference between OC and CC.

    Yata hey
    I agree with Grapeshot here. His examples are spot on.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  10. #10
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    ed wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:

    You may OC a camo gun in a camo holster while wearing BDUs and sitting on camo seatcovers. You might be called a wannabe, but your gun is NOT concealed.

    Yata hey
    Now that I disagree with because you are hiding the "true nature" of what you are carrying.. just like the North American Arms belt buckel pistol in PLAIN SITE have been considered concealed.. (because the reasonable man does not even know it is a real gun)>
    Ed
    Grapeshot-spot on

    I Oc'ed @ the Fairfax County fair wearing all black to include gun and holster, the only thing that stood out was my GSL button.

    I don't carry my permit (or ID)when I OC.


    [line]

    ETA:
    Running the plates on my car wouldn't reveal that someone driving it has a permit.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

  11. #11
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Agent19 wrote:
    ed wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:

    You may OC a camo gun in a camo holster while wearing BDUs and sitting on camo seatcovers. You might be called a wannabe, but your gun is NOT concealed.

    Yata hey
    Now that I disagree with because you are hiding the "true nature" of what you are carrying.. just like the North American Arms belt buckel pistol in PLAIN SITE have been considered concealed.. (because the reasonable man does not even know it is a real gun)>
    Ed
    Grapeshot-spot on

    I Oc'ed @ the Fairfax County fair wearing all black to include gun and holster, the only thing that stood out was my GSL button.

    I don't carry my permit (or ID)when I OC.


    [line]

    ETA:
    Running the plates on my car wouldn't reveal that someone driving it has a permit.
    May I suggest you reconsider doing this? The reason is this. What if you are within 1000' of a school doing this? Technically you are in violation of federal law and an LEO could arrest you for doing this.

    And we really need you out and about and free to carry the cause.


    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  12. #12
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    led for breakfast wrote:
    ok thank you i will try it even when the gun is black as the night skyand the seats are black too
    SNIP So is my heart, but it is not hidden from common observation - I wear it on my sleeve.
    QFT :P
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  13. #13
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Agent19 wrote:
    ed wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:

    You may OC a camo gun in a camo holster while wearing BDUs and sitting on camo seatcovers. You might be called a wannabe, but your gun is NOT concealed.

    Yata hey
    Now that I disagree with because you are hiding the "true nature" of what you are carrying.. just like the North American Arms belt buckel pistol in PLAIN SITE have been considered concealed.. (because the reasonable man does not even know it is a real gun)>
    Ed
    Grapeshot-spot on

    I Oc'ed @ the Fairfax County fair wearing all black to include gun and holster, the only thing that stood out was my GSL button.

    I don't carry my permit (or ID)when I OC.


    [line]

    ETA:
    Running the plates on my car wouldn't reveal that someone driving it has a permit.
    May I suggest you reconsider doing this? The reason is this. What if you are within 1000' of a school doing this? Technically you are in violation of federal law and an LEO could arrest you for doing this.

    And we really need you out and about and free to carry the cause.
    Local LE enforces federal laws?

    That and he did not say that he OCs indiscriminately.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  14. #14
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    led for breakfast wrote:
    ok thank you i will try it even when the gun is black as the night skyand the seats are black too
    SNIP So is my heart, but it is not hidden from common observation - I wear it on my sleeve for all to see.
    QFT :P
    In case there was any doubt, I fixed it.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  15. #15
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    led for breakfast wrote:
    ok thank you i will try it even when the gun is black as the night skyand the seats are black too
    So is my heart, but it is not hidden from common observation - I wear it on my sleeve.

    You may OC a camo gun in a camo holster while wearing BDUs and sitting on camo seatcovers. You might be called a wannabe, but your gun is NOT concealed.

    Yata

    I gotta try that look its gotta be priceless !!!!!

  16. #16
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Agent19 wrote:
    ed wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:

    You may OC a camo gun in a camo holster while wearing BDUs and sitting on camo seatcovers. You might be called a wannabe, but your gun is NOT concealed.

    Yata hey
    Now that I disagree with because you are hiding the "true nature" of what you are carrying.. just like the North American Arms belt buckel pistol in PLAIN SITE have been considered concealed.. (because the reasonable man does not even know it is a real gun)>
    Ed
    Grapeshot-spot on

    I Oc'ed @ the Fairfax County fair wearing all black to include gun and holster, the only thing that stood out was my GSL button.

    I don't carry my permit (or ID)when I OC.


    [line]

    ETA:
    Running the plates on my car wouldn't reveal that someone driving it has a permit.
    May I suggest you reconsider doing this? The reason is this. What if you are within 1000' of a school doing this? Technically you are in violation of federal law and an LEO could arrest you for doing this.

    And we really need you out and about and free to carry the cause.
    Local LE enforces federal laws?

    That and he did not say that he OCs indiscriminately.

    Yata hey
    From what I understand county and local police would be expected to enforce this federal law, but I am not sure about this. Perhaps is why you almost never here of anyone being arrested for doing this.

    I was just mentioning this so that people might know that it may not be a bad idea to carry one's permit as a "just in case" thing. If they happened to encounter an LEO who for whatever reason, just does not like citizens to be carrying guns, he might be looking for situations where he could make someone's life miserable. Carrying the law to the letter could save someone from such nonsense.

    So I hope you're right in your questioning this one.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  17. #17
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    And we really need you out and about and free to carry the cause.

    Thanks for the concern.

    I don't see anywhere in thelaw where it states I have to have my permit on my person when I'm in a school GFZ, I just need to posses a valid one.

    Beside I believe it is impossible to comply with the GFZ acts.

    [line]

    Back to the OP's question:

    I don't believe a firearm carried openly would be consider concealed when seated in a car or booth in a Restaurant/club.

    IANALNDIPOOTBT.


    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

  18. #18
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Agent19 wrote:
    I don't see anywhere in thelaw where it states I have to have my permit on my person when I'm in a school GFZ, I just need to posses a valid one.

    Beside I believe it is impossible to comply with the GFZ acts.

    [line]
    but to carry concealed, you must have that permit on your person with a government issued photo id
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  19. #19
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    That is true but we aredicussingOpen carry.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

  20. #20
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Agent19 wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    And we really need you out and about and free to carry the cause.

    Thanks for the concern.

    I don't see anywhere in thelaw where it states I have to have my permit on my person when I'm in a school GFZ, I just need to posses a valid one.

    Beside I believe it is impossible to comply with the GFZ acts.

    [line]

    Back to the OP's question:

    I don't believe a firearm carried openly would be consider concealed when seated in a car or booth in a Restaurant/club.

    IANALNDIPOOTBT.

    Excellent! I just re-read U.S. Code 18,922, q.2.B.ii and it clearly states that the,

    "..individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license"

    As you pointed out, it does not say you must be carrying your "license" at the time you are carrying your firearm in the school zone. Great catch, Agent19!

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  21. #21
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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Agent19 wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    And we really need you out and about and free to carry the cause.

    Thanks for the concern.

    I don't see anywhere in thelaw where it states I have to have my permit on my person when I'm in a school GFZ, I just need to posses a valid one.

    Beside I believe it is impossible to comply with the GFZ acts.

    [line]

    Back to the OP's question:

    I don't believe a firearm carried openly would be consider concealed when seated in a car or booth in a Restaurant/club.

    IANALNDIPOOTBT.

    Excellent! I just re-read U.S. Code 18,922, q.2.B.ii and it clearly states that the,

    "..individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license"

    As you pointed out, it does not say you must be carrying your "license" at the time you are carrying your firearm in the school zone. Great catch, Agent19!
    can anyone other than federal law enforcement enforce the gfsza?

  22. #22
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Dunno about them enforcing the GFSZ, but I know the local Sheriff's Dept can (and does) enforce speeding and parking laws (Federal laws)on Federal Land in Yorktown, VA. The Park Service also enforce the same area. Some of the areas overlap and both have been granted jurisdiction.

    For those afraid to OC in Yorktown, there is ONE area you can't carry in town and that's at the picnic area "downriver" of the fishing pier, but it says right on the Brown National Park-type sign "No Weapons" (or firearms, I'm not exactly sure of the wording).

    There are so many schools around here that the SD doesn't try to enforce the GFSZ. They're busy enough enforcing other laws...

    msc
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

  23. #23
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Woah... Dida Mozambique... Repaired...
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

  24. #24
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Double-Tap fixed...
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

  25. #25
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    nova wrote:

    can anyone other than federal law enforcement enforce the gfsza?
    Don't know but none of the local/state or feds that see me walking daily have yet to try and enforce it, going on 5yrs now with no problems.

    I think their scared of my dog,he's only 13" @ the shoulder and weights <50 lbs.


    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

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