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Thread: Michigan Pastor shoots intruder

  1. #1
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    Nope, it's not me. I just read about it in the paper and thought I'd post it. I don't have any details beyond what's in the paper.

    Joel

    ----------------------

    http://www.miningjournal.net/page/co...014&isap=1


    Pastor shoots, wounds intruder

    DETROIT (AP) — A retired police officer-turned-pastor shot and wounded a man who broke into his Detroit church, police said Monday.

    Lawrence Adams went to Westside Bible Church on Sunday evening and found the intruder inside the building, said Detroit police Sgt. Eren Stephens. The man began swinging an object at the retired police lieutenant, who pulled out a handgun and shot him in the abdomen, he said.

    The pastor, who was not injured, was licensed to carry the handgun, police said.


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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    I wonder what the object was? And why they (police/media)didn't report it?

    If it wasn't a weapon, this would call into play HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense©(HPCSD):

    It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.


    HPCSD always applies. Even in God's house. It's that good....



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    Not.

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    Here are two more reports on the same story that give a little more detail. The BG was armed with a bag of loot, and it was a justified shooting.

    Note the pastor's statement in the second account about being in fear of his life.

    Joel

    -----------------

    DETROIT -- A 41-year-old man shot by a retired police lieutenant turned-pastor during a weekend burglary at a Detroit church has been charged with breaking and entering.

    Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy said in a release Tuesday that Tyrone O. Badey was confronted by pastor Lawrence Adams as Badey was leaving Westside Bible Church Sunday around 6:45 p.m. with a bag of stolen items.

    “When I got out of the car and saw the door open, I already had my gun out. It was behind my back," said Adams.

    Adams, 54, said he hid behind the door and grabbed the man as he walked out with the bag.

    “He swung the bag at me. At the same time I fired a shot at him,” said Adams.


    Adams said he shot the man in the midsection and the two struggled a short time before police arrived.

    Police said Monday that Adams was licensed to carry the gun.

    "Some people would question a man of God, a pastor of a church carrying a gun, but God puts us in the position to protect ourselves," said Adams.

    Members of Adams’ church called him a good man and believe he was within his rights to use his gun.

    Iris Adams said her husband went to the church after a security company reported an alarm had been triggered. She said her husband identified himself as a retired police officer before the shooting.

    Adams was a Detroit beat cop and police academy instructor until he retired in 2006.

    A Detroit police spokesman told Local 4 that Adams will not face any charges in the shooting.

    Badey was in temporary serious condition Sunday and is recovering at a local hospital.

    -----------------------

    A man who broke into a west side Detroit church didn’t get very far in his attempt to rob the place, police said. Lawrence Adams, pastor at Westside Bible Church on Winston near 7 Mile, a retired Detroit Police lieutenant, said he shot the intruder around 6:45 p.m. Sunday in self-defense after responding to a call from the church's alarm company and discovering that the facility's front door was open. Adams said today he saw the man coming out of the church's front door with a large garbage bag, and once the robber saw him, the two struggled. "He took a swing at me," said Adams, who left the force in 2006 after 25 years. "At that time, I fired a shot at him. I was defending myself and not the property or the church." Detroit Police spokeswoman Yvette Walker said the robbery suspect remained hospitalized today in temporary serious condition. Police said they've forwarded their investigation to prosecutors for possible charges.

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    nobucks wrote:
    Here are two more reports on the same story that give a little more detail. The BG was armed with a bag of loot, and it was a justified shooting.
    I'm having difficulty seeing how shooting the man wasjustified...

    There are signs here that the pastor was playing wannabe cop...rather reclessly, too, given what he did and how he did it.

    I mean, he definitely inserted himself into a situation that was a police matter.

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    Live life on the shady side and sooner or later you will get an early invite to explain your actions to your maker.

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    HankT wrote:
    I'm having difficulty seeing how shooting the man wasjustified...

    There are signs here that the pastor was playing wannabe cop...rather reclessly, too, given what he did and how he did it.

    I mean, he definitely inserted himself into a situation that was a police matter.
    It was justified because, if for no other reason, the police concluded that it was.

    A more practical question is, does the Castle Doctrine apply at your place of business, in this case, a church?



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    nobucks wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    I'm having difficulty seeing how shooting the man wasjustified...

    There are signs here that the pastor was playing wannabe cop...rather reclessly, too, given what he did and how he did it.

    I mean, he definitely inserted himself into a situation that was a police matter.
    It was justified because, if for no other reason, the police concluded that it was.
    So, let's see if I've got your view right, nobucks...if the police make a determination on a shooting case (no charges, justified, investigation, send to DA, send to GJ, charge shooter, etc.), then the police action settles the matter?

    We then, according to your decision rule, accept the cops' decision?

    Hmmm. I'll have to keep your logic in mind on future cases we discuss here...

    That would make things nice and, uh.....simplistic, I'll grant you that...

    Easier.....

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    HankT wrote:
    nobucks wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    I'm having difficulty seeing how shooting the man wasjustified...

    There are signs here that the pastor was playing wannabe cop...rather reclessly, too, given what he did and how he did it.

    I mean, he definitely inserted himself into a situation that was a police matter.
    It was justified because, if for no other reason, the police concluded that it was.
    So, let's see if I've got your view right, nobucks...if the police make a determination on a shooting case (no charges, justified, investigation, send to DA, send to GJ, charge shooter, etc.), then the police action settles the matter?

    We then, according to your decision rule, accept the cops' decision?

    Hmmm. I'll have to keep your logic in mind on future cases we discuss here...

    That would make things nice and, uh.....simplistic, I'll grant you that...

    Easier.....
    HankT wrote:
    I wonder what the object was? And why they (police/media)didn't report it?

    If it wasn't a weapon, this would call into play HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense©(HPCSD):

    It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.


    HPCSD always applies. Even in God's house. It's that good....

    Hank... please stop with the constant badgering about your "postulate". It is "simplistic", it does not reflect all real life self defense situations, it is a dangerous concept that ignores the fact that empty hands and feet are dangerous weapons when used in that manner, and those who believe it and hesitate when attacked because of that "postulate" could suffer great harm or death because of that hesitation.

    Should an 80 year old frail woman not use her gun to defend herself against an 18 year old man armed only with empty hands and feet attempting to strangle her?

    Hank.. with respect... your "postulate" in reality is an anti self defense concept that is dangerous... and definitely not very good.

    Hank... please rethink that "postulate".
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Bikenut wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    nobucks wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    I'm having difficulty seeing how shooting the man wasjustified...

    There are signs here that the pastor was playing wannabe cop...rather reclessly, too, given what he did and how he did it.

    I mean, he definitely inserted himself into a situation that was a police matter.
    It was justified because, if for no other reason, the police concluded that it was.
    So, let's see if I've got your view right, nobucks...if the police make a determination on a shooting case (no charges, justified, investigation, send to DA, send to GJ, charge shooter, etc.), then the police action settles the matter?

    We then, according to your decision rule, accept the cops' decision?

    Hmmm. I'll have to keep your logic in mind on future cases we discuss here...

    That would make things nice and, uh.....simplistic, I'll grant you that...

    Easier.....
    HankT wrote:
    I wonder what the object was? And why they (police/media)didn't report it?

    If it wasn't a weapon, this would call into play HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense©(HPCSD):

    It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.


    HPCSD always applies. Even in God's house. It's that good....

    Hank... please stop with the constant badgering about your "postulate". It is "simplistic", it does not reflect all real life self defense situations, it is a dangerous concept that ignores the fact that empty hands and feet are dangerous weapons when used in that manner, and those who believe it and hesitate when attacked because of that "postulate" could suffer great harm or death because of that hesitation.

    Should an 80 year old frail woman not use her gun to defend herself against an 18 year old man armed only with empty hands and feet attempting to strangle her?

    Hank.. with respect... your "postulate" in reality is an anti self defense concept that is dangerous... and definitely not very good.

    Hank... please rethink that "postulate".
    HPCSD is not simplistic.

    It is simple.

    That's why it always applies....

    It most certainly, btw, is NOT anti-self defense.

    Please reread HPCSD, BN. With an open mind this time...

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    HankT wrote:
    Bikenut wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    nobucks wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    I'm having difficulty seeing how shooting the man wasjustified...

    There are signs here that the pastor was playing wannabe cop...rather reclessly, too, given what he did and how he did it.

    I mean, he definitely inserted himself into a situation that was a police matter.
    It was justified because, if for no other reason, the police concluded that it was.
    So, let's see if I've got your view right, nobucks...if the police make a determination on a shooting case (no charges, justified, investigation, send to DA, send to GJ, charge shooter, etc.), then the police action settles the matter?

    We then, according to your decision rule, accept the cops' decision?

    Hmmm. I'll have to keep your logic in mind on future cases we discuss here...

    That would make things nice and, uh.....simplistic, I'll grant you that...

    Easier.....
    HankT wrote:
    I wonder what the object was? And why they (police/media)didn't report it?

    If it wasn't a weapon, this would call into play HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense©(HPCSD):

    It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.


    HPCSD always applies. Even in God's house. It's that good....

    Hank... please stop with the constant badgering about your "postulate". It is "simplistic", it does not reflect all real life self defense situations, it is a dangerous concept that ignores the fact that empty hands and feet are dangerous weapons when used in that manner, and those who believe it and hesitate when attacked because of that "postulate" could suffer great harm or death because of that hesitation.

    Should an 80 year old frail woman not use her gun to defend herself against an 18 year old man armed only with empty hands and feet attempting to strangle her?

    Hank.. with respect... your "postulate" in reality is an anti self defense concept that is dangerous... and definitely not very good.

    Hank... please rethink that "postulate".
    HPCSD is not simplistic.

    It is simple.

    That's why it always applies....

    It most certainly, btw, is NOT anti-self defense.

    Please reread HPCSD, BN. With an open mind this time...
    Let me ask again Hank..

    Would an 80 year old woman be justified in shooting an 18 year old man who is attempting to strangle her with his empty hands?

    That one hypothetical scenario shows your "postulate" to be false in that it does not "always" apply.

    And.. as I asked in another thread that contained your "postulate"...

    Are you shrouding an anti gun agenda behind a pseudo intellectual "postulate"?
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    The shooter is not going to have to defend himself in court. The bad guy will be charged with at least breaking and entering, if not assault. The matter is settled by the police decision not to charge the shooter.

    If they charged him, then it would be a matter of determining whether or not it was a justified shooting. Because he's not being charged, there is no question as to whether it was or not. Any discussion re:the shooter is, ultimately, moot, because he doesn't need to defend himself in court.

    BTW, I do read your postulate with an open mind and I understand (I think) where you're coming from with it, which is why I didn't say it doesn't apply here. We might, however, disagree whether or not the bad guy was armed.

    IMO, the question as to whether or not the bad guy was armed here was, again, answered by police. It was assault, and they were satisfied that the shooter was in fear for his safety.

    Joel

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    Hank... I'm beginnin' to hope that you'll be randomly victimized shortly. One of two things are gonna happen.

    1. In the final flash of your life... you'll realized how 'dead wrong' you are.

    2. You'll live to recant all your 'postulant' BS!

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    HankT
    That's why it always applies....
    NOT. The funny part is, you can't see where your logic is busted stuff.



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    HankT wrote:
    I wonder what the object was? And why they (police/media)didn't report it?

    If it wasn't a weapon, this would call into play HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense©(HPCSD):

    It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.


    HPCSD always applies. Even in God's house. It's that good....

    What does that matter, I bet I could render someone defenseless with a Whiffle ball bat, and after that their at my mercy, Tell us HANK T what exactly is a weapon? A weapon is any object that is utilized as an extension of ones own appendage, that is unless you're a Ninja nut, or a registered/sanctioned boxer, then you're own appendages are lethal weapons, and recognized so by the laws.. Someday we're going to read an article that states an internet troll that hides in invisible mode on the WWW was slain with a kitchen spatula and found dead lying on top of his loaded PISTOLA:celebrate



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    HankT wrote:
    nobucks wrote:
    Here are two more reports on the same story that give a little more detail. The BG was armed with a bag of loot, and it was a justified shooting.
    I'm having difficulty seeing how shooting the man wasjustified...

    There are signs here that the pastor was playing wannabe cop...rather reclessly, too, given what he did and how he did it.

    I mean, he definitely inserted himself into a situation that was a police matter.
    I continue to hope you NEVER serve on a jury where a firearm owner shoots in self-defense. Hopefully, juries continue to use "reasonable person" as a yardstick, and not "hankT unreasonable person" as a yardstick. Your postulate posturing is useless.

    Of course, in this case, the reports are that the BG was armed.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    nobucks wrote:
    The shooter is not going to have to defend himself in court. The bad guy will be charged with at least breaking and entering, if not assault. The matter is settled by the police decision not to charge the shooter.

    If they charged him, then it would be a matter of determining whether or not it was a justified shooting. Because he's not being charged, there is no question as to whether it was or not. Any discussion re:the shooter is, ultimately, moot, because he doesn't need to defend himself in court.

    BTW, I do read your postulate with an open mind and I understand (I think) where you're coming from with it, which is why I didn't say it doesn't apply here. We might, however, disagree whether or not the bad guy was armed.

    IMO, the question as to whether or not the bad guy was armed here was, again, answered by police. It was assault, and they were satisfied that the shooter was in fear for his safety.

    Joel
    Hank's from New Jersey. He used to post his location but was shamed outta it. You can't carry a paperclip legally in New Jersey. He's never been in a real life threatening situation... so all of this postulant stuff is so much imaginary crapola. It's doubtful that Hank would pull onna BG 'cause his heads too fulla 'ideas'. I dunno if Hank's a Brady or a FUDD


    "I mean, he definitely inserted himself into a situation that was a police matter.'

    No Hank... it was a personal matter. His church and his property and a criminal act in progress. Now... you could retreat to the nearest corner and wet your pants while clinging to your cell phone... but some people have actually grown a pair and will defendthemselves and their property. I realize that must be an alien concept now in NJ... but I'm sure the 'mob' would agree.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Carnivore wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    I wonder what the object was? And why they (police/media)didn't report it?

    If it wasn't a weapon, this would call into play HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense©(HPCSD):

    It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.


    HPCSD always applies. Even in God's house. It's that good....

    What does that matter, I bet I could render someone defenseless with a Whiffle ball bat, and after that their at my mercy, Tell us HANK T what exactly is a weapon? A weapon is any object that is utilized as an extension of ones own appendage, that is unless you're a Ninja nut, or a registered/sanctioned boxer, then you're own appendages are lethal weapons, and recognized so by the laws.. Someday we're going to read an article that states an internet troll that hides in invisible mode on the WWW was slain with a kitchen spatula and found dead lying on top of his loaded PISTOLA:celebrate

    Thank you for helping me make my point about empty hands and even feet being deadly weapons when used for that purpose. The only difference between a registered/sanctioned boxer and a street punk's fists are the boxer's fists are "registered" just like our guns are "registered". Both the boxer's and the street punk's fists are equally as deadly if used to inflict harm.

    And I stated this common sense fact in a different thread that Hank's "postulate" has yet to address... each and every human being who is born physically normal is equipped at birth with the weapons of fists and feet ... hence there is no such thing as an "unarmed" person. There is only a difference in the weapon that is being used to inflict harm.

    By the way.. to Hank.. please answer how your "postulate" proves that it would be a bad strategy for an 80 year old frail woman to shoot an 18 year old man who is strangling her with his bare hands?
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  19. #19
    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    nobucks wrote:
    ...
    DETROIT (AP) — A retired police officer-turned-pastor shot and wounded a man who broke into his Detroit church, police said Monday.
    One thing popped into my mind when I read this story. (and it wasn't hanks postulate) If the pastor wasn't a retired police officer would hehave been charged or at least referred to the DA for investigation?

    I guess you can look at it two ways, 1) since he was a retired police officer he knew and behaved inside the law or 2) he got preferential treatment from the boys in blue.

    I have always been told that if you use your gun you WILL wind up in court even if it is a righteous shoot. It just struck me odd to have the police upfront not even consider other more common paths. It should be that way for all righteous shoots!

    I am glad the BG was caught and am also glad the good guy didn't have to suffer through pain and legal cost of an anti-gun DA but it did strike me as odd.

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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    Hank's from New Jersey. He used to post his location but was shamed outta it.
    I've never posted my location here.

    You are mistaken. Again.

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    Hank's from New Jersey. He used to post his location but was shamed outta it.
    I've never posted my location here.

    You are mistaken. Again.
    http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:AbVabJBznZcJpencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php%3Fid%3D29056%26forum_id%3D26%26jump _to%3D521709+hankt+%22are+you+from+joisey%22&c d=1

    G00gle's cache
    And?

    Doug, your point is?????

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  24. #24
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    Doug Huffman wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    Hank's from New Jersey. He used to post his location but was shamed outta it.
    I've never posted my location here.

    You are mistaken. Again.
    http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:AbVabJBznZcJpencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php%3Fid%3D29056%26forum_id%3D26%26jump _to%3D521709+hankt+%22are+you+from+joisey%22&c d=1

    G00gle's cache
    And?

    Doug, your point is?????
    :celebratePWNED!:celebrate


    Gawd, it's so easy..... sooooo easy....it's really not even close to being fair....



  25. #25
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    --

    Why does every thread seem to turn into a thread about HankT?

    My original question: Does the Castle Doctrine apply to your workplace?

    Joel

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