C.P.L. Fund

mikestilly · Oct 1, 2009

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In my opinion the money for defense and civil suit fund makes sense this doesnt. I dont feel welfare for cpl licenses is a good idea. Is a pistol fund next then an ammo fund, then a holster fund, then a going to the range fund. A fund is a good idea but not for licenses. Even though I feel we are strong armed with the fees if someone cant afford a CPL how can they afford everything else? I dont have a ton of money being in debt and trying to get out but I budgeted for my CPL and everything else and there is no reason others cant do it. Dont flame me this is just my opinion.

How on earth would it even be fairly distributed when you get a million people in the welfare line. Or lazy cheap libs who drive a mercades in line? More bad here then good.

autosurgeon · Oct 1, 2009

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I agree with Mikestilly... I think this is a slippery slope and could quickly get out of hand and also could cause hard feelings.

Defence fund I can see other than that I am not in agreement with this type of fund.

If instructors want to cut MOC members a good deal on the class that also seems ok but a fund to pay for CPL's for people who cannot afford them seems like it could go south in a hurry...

CoonDog · Oct 1, 2009

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I'm not comfortable with this idea either, as I don't see any oversight as to how the funds will be spent. Having said that, I am willing and would enjoy helping other members out, so I've created the following guidelines for myself:

I'll donate $5 for a CPL class or application to any member with the following credentials, as funds permit:

1) MOC member for 6+ months
2) Contributed 100+ posts.
3) Demonstrates 3+ picnics/events/police encounters/ordinances re-written

autosurgeon · Oct 1, 2009

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That is the way it should be... one person helping another... I know from my experience with the Gun Club that funds will come up missing or someone will feel that money is not being spent correctly and then we will have problems... I also worry some about the defense fund and feel it should be handled very carefully so that we don'r have problems along these lines as well!

springerdave · Oct 1, 2009

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I think the spirit of this was to train CPL class INSTRUCTORS that would then educate as many as they could for free/plus materials so THOSE folks could then go get their own CPL. Am I wrong with that idea? Or was the intent of the OP to just pay for select members' CPL's?springerdave.

qqq1 · Oct 1, 2009

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It appears some people aren't reading the posts in this thread. We are not talking about buying one person a cpl. I don't think that's a good idea (unless it's mine you are buying). We are talking about buying instructor training so EVERYONE can benefit. No one is forcing you to donate if you don't like the idea and it's nothing like a fund to buy someone a gun or ammo.

autosurgeon · Oct 1, 2009

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Paying to train instructors .... I guess I can see that.... but based on where this started ..no disrespect to anyone involved! I think you can see why we thought paying for individual CPL's came from!

Guest · Oct 1, 2009

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The OP did start the thread as a individual funding. Bronson proposed the concept of instructor funding in return for free instruction to MOC members needing help.

I offered to donate to Bronson's instructor training because of his proposal.

I'm still in for it if it flies.

Banger · Oct 1, 2009

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I definitely like the idea of raising money to train someone or even a couple people as instructors and then perhaps starting a fund to cover the cop or lawyer who comes in to teach that part of the class as well as perhaps funding the packet for the class for MOC members. That way the only thing the individual has to come up with is the $105 to file.

Bronson · Oct 1, 2009

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Not to be the wishy-washy flip-flopper but I'm wondering if this is really something we should do.

Does this really fit in with the stated goals of MOC? Which are:

[*]To educate and desensitize the public and members of the law enforcement community about the legality of the open carry of a handgun in public.

[*]To exercise a natural right to self defense using the most efficient and common tool, a handgun.

[*]To demonstrate to the public at large that gun owners are one of the most lawful segments of society and they have nothing to fear from the lawful carry of a firearm.

[*]To protect our right to self-defense.

First off I would have to respectfully remove myself from any consideration. My job requires me to work every weekend so I wouldn't be available to teach classes when most people would be available to take them. I also do not have access to a range that would be cost effective. Plus I do not have a lawyer or LEO contact that could teach the legal section. On that note ...

I don't think it's reasonable to expect to find a lawyer or LEO to donate all of their time for these classes. They should be paid for their training and expertise and time. So, considering their portion of the class fee plus material costs and possibly range rental the most we could really hope to offer MOC members would be a (hopefully) hefty discount on the class. With a little digging I believe more affordable classes can already be found throughout the state.

If this is something that MOC decided was a good idea the logistics of running it could be complicated and we are an all volunteer group.

I think that IF this is done there should most definitely be consideration given to poplulation density of MOC members. IF we pay to have instructors trained I feel the first ones should be in places that have the highest number of members. And IF we sponsor instructor training they should have to pass some sort of quiz to make sure they are knowledgable and have a correct understanding of firearms laws as they relate to open carry before being green lighted. See how complicated this could get?

I still haven't fully convinced myself that this is an area where we should focus our energy. Right now I'm feeling more positive about a legal defense fund for OC related cases.

I don't know ....perhaps I'll change my mind again tomorrow :lol::banghead:

Bronson

cabman1 · Oct 2, 2009

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Bronson wrote:

Not to be the wishy-washy flip-flopper but I'm wondering if this is really something we should do.

Does this really fit in with the stated goals of MOC? Which are:

[*]To educate and desensitize the public and members of the law enforcement community about the legality of the open carry of a handgun in public.

[*]To exercise a natural right to self defense using the most efficient and common tool, a handgun.

[*]To demonstrate to the public at large that gun owners are one of the most lawful segments of society and they have nothing to fear from the lawful carry of a firearm.

[*]To protect our right to self-defense.

First off I would have to respectfully remove myself from any consideration. My job requires me to work every weekend so I wouldn't be available to teach classes when most people would be available to take them. I also do not have access to a range that would be cost effective. Plus I do not have a lawyer or LEO contact that could teach the legal section. On that note ...

I don't think it's reasonable to expect to find a lawyer or LEO to donate all of their time for these classes. They should be paid for their training and expertise and time. So, considering their portion of the class fee plus material costs and possibly range rental the most we could really hope to offer MOC members would be a (hopefully) hefty discount on the class. With a little digging I believe more affordable classes can already be found throughout the state.

If this is something that MOC decided was a good idea the logistics of running it could be complicated and we are an all volunteer group.

I think that IF this is done there should most definitely be consideration given to poplulation density of MOC members. IF we pay to have instructors trained I feel the first ones should be in places that have the highest number of members. And IF we sponsor instructor training they should have to pass some sort of quiz to make sure they are knowledgable and have a correct understanding of firearms laws as they relate to open carry before being green lighted. See how complicated this could get?

I still haven't fully convinced myself that this is an area where we should focus our energy. Right now I'm feeling more positive about a legal defense fund for OC related cases.

I don't know ....perhaps I'll change my mind again tomorrow :lol::banghead:

Bronson

With bronson puting it that way I can see that it would still be a costly venture because I am not a lawyer or police officer.So maybe sticking to donate to someones cpl fund might not be a bad idea!!!

UCWT · Oct 2, 2009

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Bronson wrote:

Not to be the wishy-washy flip-flopper but I'm wondering if this is really something we should do.

Snip**
I don't know ....perhaps I'll change my mind again tomorrow :lol::banghead:

Bronson

Yeah unless a LEO and lawyer get on board. I can see the issue that's pointed out. Didn't really grasp the time one would have to donate to be the instructor and make this happen either.

It would be a awesome thing to ease the burden of the class part of the monies for those less fortunate since not everyone is a employed agent of the government.

***
I was right Bronson I'll read that on sunday when I get to a PC. my Blackberry don't let me read my pms

autosurgeon · Oct 2, 2009

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There are several problems with this venture that I can see.

1. this has little to do with MOC's goals

2. At best this would only discount the cost of a class.

3. What if MOC provided training to a person like Harlan Drake and then he went off. NOW I know this really shouldn't be a reflection on MOC but I can be sure that is how it would be spun by the media.

4. My final point is (and this my not be popular) Save a little each week until you can afford the costs... that is how I get the things I want! Even if you just save your pocket change in a pop bottle eventually you will have the 250 or so it takes.

Guest · Oct 2, 2009

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Looks like this isn't going to get off the ground.
Offer withdrawn.

hopnpop · Oct 2, 2009

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I, too, am seeing several slippery slopes here. That sounded Dr. Seuess-ish. I like the ideas here simply because they're so well-intended but when we get to the actual logistics and details, many complications arise. Allotment/oversight is a big one. There's no way we could all buy our non-CPL members CPL classes. ...Or even only those deemed worthy. I don't think it would be feasible to "make" a handful of instructors either. We could, but then we'd be relying on them a LOT and they could be subjected to a ton of scrutiny. I'd provide alternative solutions if I had any. I like the idea of a legal fees fund, too, but again, it comes down to who gets it and who doesn't. This is a bummer - great ideas on paper, but apply to real life and there's much more to it.

Just a note on the pro-bono attourney idea for CPL class... In my CPL class, one of the instructors was friends with an attourney who was "fluent" in gun law(s). He was a recently retired attourney, I believe, and provided his knowledge pro-bono as a friend to the instructor. Great, money-saving idea and he had credentials. Unfortunately, a few of us in the class had to correct him on several counts where he was giving us inaccurate information, outdated laws that had since been rewritten and changedandsunsetted, and his personal opinions. Without a few very knowledgable people in the class to correct him, many would have been mislead and misinformed. In fact, those of us who knew of at least some of his inaccuracies were pretty darn pissed about it. I mean pissed. We were there for instruction and knowledge; not his personal opinions that had no bearing nor the misinformation he projected to us. SO - I'm leary of anyone willing to do something like this pro-bono.

UCWT · Oct 2, 2009

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autosurgeon wrote:

There are several problems with this venture that I can see.

1. this has little to do with MOC's goals

* Maybe not a 100% But it does make it a lot easier to transport and places it can be legally done. ie places you can't OC without a CPL to achieve the final goal of a larger range of places that can be available for educating the masses about OC.

2. At best this would only discount the cost of a class.

* Just half the cost being donated as far as the class will get those that need a little help half way there.

3. What if MOC provided training to a person like Harlan Drake and then he went off. NOW I know this really shouldn't be a reflection on MOC but I can be sure that is how it would be spun by the media.

* after thinking about this also I came up with maybe not MOC being the provider or provide ads/sticky of said service but only the media source for the members to find it that search about it and could use the help. I would hope that if there is the possibility of someone being nuckin futs! it would be caught in this way as by the typical CPL course/background check.

4. My final point is (and this my not be popular) Save a little each week until you can afford the costs... that is how I get the things I want! Even if you just save your pocket change in a pop bottle eventually you will have the 250 or so it takes.

* see your point on this but in the event of being lower middle class or limited or fixed income just the class part of the cost could be a world of difference for some.

just thinking out loud here. trying to weigh the pros and cons after thinking about/ reading posts. UCWT

hopnpop · Oct 2, 2009

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UCWT wrote:

autosurgeon wrote:

There are several problems with this venture that I can see.

1. this has little to do with MOC's goals

* Maybe not a 100% But it does make it a lot easier to transport and places it can be legally done. ie places you can't OC without a CPL to achieve the final goal of a larger range of places that can be available for educating the masses about OC. +1

2. At best this would only discount the cost of a class.

* Just half the cost being donated as far as the class will get those that need a little help half way there. +1

Click to expand...

I'd be in favor of 1/2 cost, but again, I don't think that would be an achievable goal.

autosurgeon · Oct 2, 2009

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The biggest problem I see here is how to decide who gets what... and that is always a problem with giveaways..

Also I have no problem with individuals helping another member if they feel they want to but to have MOC running it seems like a bad idea...

IMOP only!

hopnpop · Oct 2, 2009

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autosurgeon wrote:

The biggest problem I see here is how to decide who gets what... and that is always a problem with giveaways..

Also I have no problem with individuals helping another member if they feel they want to but to have MOC running it seems like a bad idea...

IMOP only!

...or at least has a lot of potential of being a bad idea. It would have to be orchestrated very carefully. Too much room for error...

DanM · Oct 2, 2009

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CV67PAT wrote:

Looks like this isn't going to get off the ground.
Offer withdrawn.

You guys who want to organize and contribute toa CPL scholarship or loan fund, or a CPL instructor scholarship (for the return on investment of getting reduced cost or free instruction), should go forward with exploring your idea amongst yourselves.

While I want my MOC contributions to go specifically to MOC's stated goals (which are OC related, of course), I encourage the growth ofother groups and organizations with other missions and goals related to growing the exercise of the RKBA. I see the activities of a CPL scholarship/loan fund organization as being distinct from the activities of an OC promoting/defending organization, but the former is still a great idea and has merit as something to be explored as a separate organization.

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