Results 1 to 21 of 21

Thread: Empty magazine vs Empty magazine well

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Vista, California, USA
    Posts
    516

    Post imported post


    This my 1st post...be gentle.

    I believe in open carry. What I would like to know is, why have an empty magazine in a semi-auto? If something happens that you need to defend yourself, removing the empty magazine is a step that can be eliminated by starting with an empty magzine well.

    Just practice drawing your weapon with one hand and a loaded magazine with the other. If your holstered pistol has the slide back and locked (my holster permits this), chambering a round can be done quicker by releasing the slide.

    If there is a flaw in my method, feel free to let me know.

  2. #2
    Regular Member A ECNALG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Orange County, California, USA
    Posts
    138

    Post imported post

    Canyou tell from a casual glance whether a holstered revolver on another person is loaded ?

    Probably not.

    I feel that the same applies to a semiauto bearing an unloaded magazine.

    An empty magazine is easily and quickly ejectedasthe firearm is drawn, and live magazine inserted, in one simple, practiced movement.

    The whiney pantywaists who decry UOC claim with unwavering certainty that the bad guys will just take the gun away from you if they can see that it is unloaded. O.K., fine. And empty mag in the mag well will keep the bad guys from seeing that the firearm is unloaded. Whiney pantywaist concern is rendered moot.

  3. #3
    Regular Member coolusername2007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Temecula, California, USA
    Posts
    1,660

    Post imported post

    Some prefer installed empty mags as some sort of added deterrent...one can't tell if thegun is loaded.

    I prefer an empty mag well. My rationale is sooner or later the public will become aware of the unloaded requirement of our open carry. So I don't try to fake it. I tend to agree with you, an empty mag well eliminates one more additional step in a process already hindered with way too many steps.


    ETA: ...and welcome to the forum!
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    542

    Post imported post

    I visited my local firearms dealer today, and they expressed a concern over not knowing if a firearm was loaded or not as well.

    A good point they made was that, magazine or no magazine, without inspecting the weapon, there could well be a round in the chamber, theres just no way to tell without rocking the slide or opening the cylinder.

    Does an empty mag in complicate things? Maybe, it might attract STILL more attention, it would keep out dust and grime. It might also be a hindrance, I certainly can attest to the difficulty in keeping one's head completely clear when presented with a dangerous situation.
    It could be very easy to forget the firearm was in fact unloaded and attempt to draw down with an empty magazine.

    Or not.
    Who knows right?

  5. #5
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    San Diego County, CA, California, USA
    Posts
    1,402

    Post imported post

    If I UOCed, I wouldn't put in an empty mag. I keep all mine loaded. If one breaks bad enough that it can't be fixed, but still catches, maybe.

    I thought maybe someone could fabricate a rigid swiveling dust flap mounted to the lanyard anchor, that swings out of the way when the gun is horizontal, but stays shut when forward canted. I was told there will be no need for it in two weeks. Or something like that.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Rosamond, California, USA
    Posts
    1,865

    Post imported post

    heliopolissolutions wrote:
    I visited my local firearms dealer today, and they expressed a concern over not knowing if a firearm was loaded or not as well.

    A good point they made was that, magazine or no magazine, without inspecting the weapon, there could well be a round in the chamber, theres just no way to tell without rocking the slide or opening the cylinder.

    Does an empty mag in complicate things? Maybe, it might attract STILL more attention, it would keep out dust and grime. It might also be a hindrance, I certainly can attest to the difficulty in keeping one's head completely clear when presented with a dangerous situation.
    It could be very easy to forget the firearm was in fact unloaded and attempt to draw down with an empty magazine.

    Or not.
    Who knows right?
    This is where training how you fight come into play.

    Every single time I go out to shoot, I practice drawing, dropping mag, inserting mag, charging, and firing.

    It gets to be muscle memory. You don't think, you react. It becomes as natural as swatting away a fly. You don't think about swatting, you just swat.

    The only down side to this, it if you are in a Free State, with a loaded magazine, you will still drop the magazine. Secondly, when incorporation is passed and LOC is the protected 2A right, I will have to re-train to operate withdraw, shoot, reload exercises until it becomes muscle memory.

  7. #7
    Regular Member wewd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    664

    Post imported post

    In my practice drills I have found it takes no extra time to drop an empty mag while drawing the gun. I prefer to keep a mag in the well to keep up the appearance of a loaded firearm. Most civilians don't and won't ever know about the unloaded requirement and I don't want any potential threat to be any the wiser. Police know the deal and they have to assume every firearm is loaded until verified, so nothing changes in regards to them. I also do not want there to be any doubt which magazine was or wasn't inserted in the weapon, so I keep two loaded mags with 20 rounds of ammo on my weak side and my weapon with an empty mag on my strong side. I believe the benefits of keeping an empty mag in the gun outweigh any drawbacks, so I'll continue to carry that way until our right to carry fully loaded is recognized.
    Do you want to enjoy liberty in your lifetime?

    Consider moving to New Hampshire as part of the Free State Project.

    "Live Free or Die"

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Folsom, , USA
    Posts
    389

    Post imported post

    Yes good point- bad guy sees empty gun in holster= no threat to bad guy.

    2. With an empty mag in the gun, it is hard for a court to say the otherloaded mag was in a place that could have been loaded into the gun.

  9. #9
    Regular Member demnogis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Orange County, California, USA
    Posts
    912

    Post imported post

    There comes the argument sometimes from LEOs about having an empty mag in the gun... "How do we know the gun isn't loaded?"

    Two answers...

    1) Some newer pistols (mine included) have a bright NEON ORANGE load indicator that pops up when there is a round in the chamber.

    2) They can ask
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

  10. #10
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    San Diego County, CA, California, USA
    Posts
    1,402

    Post imported post

    demnogis wrote:
    There comes the argument sometimes from LEOs about having an empty mag in the gun... "How do we know the gun isn't loaded?"

    Two answers...

    1) Some newer pistols (mine included) have a bright NEON ORANGE load indicator that pops up when there is a round in the chamber.

    2) They can ask
    Eh, I think it was mentioned in the briefs for the CA roster case that the LCI is a rare feature even amongst new pistols.

    The answer is "Be honest. You don't care. The mere fact that law-abiding me dares to own a gun at all threatens your job security."

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Vista, California, USA
    Posts
    516

    Post imported post

    I guess there is no wrong way to UOC. And the best way is what you are comfortable with and do best.



  12. #12
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Stanislaus County, California, USA
    Posts
    2,586

    Post imported post

    welcome to the forum.

    I think everybody covered the main reasons for carrying with mag inserted.

    Chalk me up as another among the "keeps dirt/debri out" crowd. (Imagine needing to defend yourself and a twig or leaf causes a feeding jam?!) As others stated, it really presents no delay in loading. With practice, I believe most people can learn to drop the mag as part of their draw.

    One other reason I keep a mag in the chamber: without the mag, there's a sharp edge that sticks out. Not only does it scrap my arm up, it was snagging the fabric of my seat in my car. (Though this could probably easily be corrected with a file and a little elbow grease.)
    Participant in the Free State Project - "Liberty in Our Lifetime" - www.freestateproject.org
    Supporter of the CalGuns Foundation - http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/
    Supporter of the Madison Society - www.madison-society.org


    Don't Tread On Me.

  13. #13
    Regular Member coolusername2007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Temecula, California, USA
    Posts
    1,660

    Post imported post

    I would like to know from those of you who fear the "debris" and "leaves" that might find its way into your empty mag well. Where are you all UOC'ing? Because everywhere I've UOC'ed this hasn't been a problem. Then again I'm pretty much confined to urban areas. So maybe you'remore rural and surrounded by more "debris". ???
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

  14. #14
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Stanislaus County, California, USA
    Posts
    2,586

    Post imported post

    coolusername2007 wrote:
    I would like to know from those of you who fear the "debris" and "leaves" that might find its way into your empty mag well. Where are you all UOC'ing? Because everywhere I've UOC'ed this hasn't been a problem. Then again I'm pretty much confined to urban areas. So maybe you'remore rural and surrounded by more "debris". ???
    The city of Modesto has trees lining most of the residential streets. Then there's random insects - I once had to clear a beetle out of my breech. As for debris... let's just say I like to open carry a lot... even when doing yard work...

    Then there's the dust... Stanislaus county is mostly farm land, with some densely populated cities sprinkled about. Even in down-town areas that sandy soil that's great for growing just about anything under the sun sits on empty lots and fields. The wonderful "delta breeze" flows in from the Sacramento river delta, which does three things well:
    1. Cools off the valley
    2. Carries in all the Bay Area smog
    3. Kicks up a lot of dust
    Participant in the Free State Project - "Liberty in Our Lifetime" - www.freestateproject.org
    Supporter of the CalGuns Foundation - http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/
    Supporter of the Madison Society - www.madison-society.org


    Don't Tread On Me.

  15. #15
    Regular Member demnogis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Orange County, California, USA
    Posts
    912

    Post imported post

    I keep an unloaded mag in the mag well at most all times (except in an instance where I would need to load). I OC while riding my motorcycle... Anything under the sun can end up getting in there.
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Discovery Bay, California, USA
    Posts
    8

    Post imported post

    I don't have any case-law to prove it; However, it would seem if you had an empty magazine in the gun, it would be very hard to get a conviction for concealed loaded magazines if they were covered up or in a pocket.

    If you have an empty mag and an empty mag-well, it's very easy to argue that is a part of the gun, even tho detatched (I understand there is case law to prove this).

    I don't know about you, but my gun doesn't accept 2 magazines, so if I assemble the gun with an empty magazine, any other magazine I have is just spare parts, and can not be considered part of the weapon.

    I regulary transport my guns locked & unloaded with empty mag. I then have loaded mags in the range bag as spare parts. I reconfigure my gun at the range from my transport magazine to my shooting magazine.

    For the tactical SDpurpose of OC, I also think an inserted empty mag makes alot of sense.1911,empty mag, in simulated Condition 1 is how i'd roll. The only time I could see doing an empty mag would be if we had a group OC and we knew there was going to be LE interaction and it was truley just 2A demonstration only. In that case empty magwell and hammer down.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Vista, California, USA
    Posts
    516

    Post imported post

    Great, now I have to buy an empty magazine. The other 10 are loaded.

  18. #18
    Regular Member OPS MARINE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    , California, USA
    Posts
    392

    Post imported post

    Decoligny wrote: (snip)
    Every single time I go out to shoot, I practice drawing, dropping mag, inserting mag, charging, and firing.

    It gets to be muscle memory. You don't think, you react. It becomes as natural as swatting away a fly. You don't think about swatting, you just swat.
    This is the way I train, I just add that I am drawing a loaded weapon for when i am at home or anywhere I am legally LOCing. I make sure I spend enough time at the range to do both. Another way to make sure mistakes aren't made is to be aware of your surroundings. Know the boundaries.
    "Most people respect the badge. Everybody... respects the gun."

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Livermore, California, USA
    Posts
    229

    Post imported post

    Hi Group,

    Interesting discussion and stated reasons on both sides of the question. I have run a few practice drills with, my wife timing me, with both an empty mag in the well and an empty well.

    The results of my three best times of each were:

    Empty Mag in the well
    time 1: 2.7 seconds
    time 2: 2.4 seconds
    time 3: 2.1 seconds

    No mag in the well
    time 1: 2.6 seconds
    time 2: 2.6 seconds
    time 3: 2.2 seconds

    From this not very elaborate or terribly scientific drill, I have come to a conclusion (for myself). I will choose to carry with an empty magazine in the well for my added piece of mind that I should, if nothing else, have a weapon ready when needed with far less worry of "stuff" other than a magazine and .45ACP rounds being in the well. This choice appears to have no large effect on the time it takes (on average) to load when needed.

    Granted, this drill was done in my home, in a controlled environment with no outside fears or other pressures other than getting back to watching Doll House on Fox (which we paused on the DVR to conduct the drill). I think with more drilling I could get down by another couple tenths of a second with consistency.

    Best Regards All - Livermoron

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Vista, California, USA
    Posts
    516

    Post imported post

    The empty magazine I use is a virgin. It has never had a round in it.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Laytonville, California, USA
    Posts
    62

    Post imported post

    The first few times i started carrying i didnt put a empty magazine in the gun.... untill i came home and saw all the dirt and stuff that got into the mag well.



    When i carried my ruger P85, and my Korean surplus 1911 i always used old mags that wouldn't feed correctly.

    But now that im using a brand spankin new Ruger Sr-9, i have no choice but to use a brand spakin new mag.



Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •