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Attempted car jacking

HankT

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deepdiver wrote:
This is one of those great situations for discussion that worked out well where the OP didn't do anything wrong but could have done things differently (not right - just different). If Tyler had stayed in the car it very much could have ended up in a "have to shoot" situation, which it didn't. So he gets out and the guy is within 21'. Keep the door open and between you? What if he rushes and slams you between the door & car body? That isn't good. Retreat far enough to get the car between you and him? Maybe not feasible and retreat could be construed as cowardice leading to an attack and the necessity of a firing.
Sounds to me that OP may have instigated the conflict a bit.

Why he got out of the car with a drawn pistol is.....um.....questionable. Need more data to know for sure. Probably a mistake, especially since it took him away from his phone.

I'm still wondering whatthe guys werearrested for, especially Mr. Knife Wielder. That seems important.

I'd like to read more details. We've only gotten a first single accont of the incident. There is more involved, I'm sure.


Finally, this was no "attempted car jacking." It wa a crime, but it wasn't that one. Maybe I'm missing something...
 
B

Bikenut

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This incident shows that there are no hard and fast "rules" on how to respond that are thought out in detail while sipping a cold beverage in the comfort of an easy chair... balancing "what to do if" against "what is the safest legally for me" thing in our heads....

Although we can generalize about that "what to do if" while relaxing in comfort with our feet up the truth is the situation itself will dictate our response at the time while it is unfolding.

After it is all over we can then (hopefully) return to our lazy boy... or the internet... and Monday morning quarterback it to death.

Thing is... if it ends up with the bad guy losing, the intended victim unhurt, and the responder unhurt and not arrested.... it turned out good.
 

marshaul

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HankT wrote:
deepdiver wrote:
This is one of those great situations for discussion that worked out well where the OP didn't do anything wrong but could have done things differently (not right - just different).  If Tyler had stayed in the car it very much could have ended up in a "have to shoot" situation, which it didn't.  So he gets out and the guy is within 21'.  Keep the door open and between you?  What if he rushes and slams you between the door & car body?  That isn't good.  Retreat far enough to get the car between you and him?  Maybe not feasible and retreat could be construed as cowardice leading to an attack and the necessity of a firing. 
Sounds to me that OP may have instigated the conflict a bit.

Why he got out of the car with a drawn pistol is.....um.....questionable. Need more data to know for sure. Probably a mistake, especially since it took him away from his phone.

I'm still wondering what the guys were arrested for, especially Mr. Knife Wielder. That seems important.

I'd like to read more details. We've only gotten a first single accont of the incident. There is more involved, I'm sure.


Finally, this was no "attempted car jacking." It wa a crime, but it wasn't that one. Maybe I'm missing something...
Remember what happens when you assume?

Gotta love Hank, always trying to blame the victim. In Hank's little world, there is no such thing as a clean act of self-defense. It's impossible that assault could ever occur without it being somehow, secretly, the fault of the victim for bringing it upon himself. Makes you wonder why he's on this forum, doesn't it?
 

Citizen

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marshaul wrote:
HankT wrote:
deepdiver wrote:
This is one of those great situations for discussion that worked out well where the OP didn't do anything wrong...
Sounds to me that OP may have instigated the conflict a bit...
...Gotta love Hank, always trying to blame the victim...

If anybodywould know aboutinstigating conflict, its HankT.

You should be careful aboutcriticizing an expert's opinion, Marshaul.

:)
 

zack991

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SouthernBoy wrote:
I don't like the fact that you were told to put your hands on your head and then when walked to a police car, you were disarmed. Yes, I realize police do what they must in order to assure their own safety as well. After all, they don't know you from Adam. So I am really torn on this one in that regard. As you said, at least you weren't handcuffed and made to get down on the ground face down. THAT would really piss me off.

I suppose it is largely a combination of a judgment call on the part of the police and which officers respond to the scene. Glad it all turned out well for you and good that you were armed. Tell this one to the idiots that keep asking, "why do you think you need to carry a gun?".
I keep my answers extremely simple, if they continue with further stupidity I say I guess you will never understand till you become a victim and walk away.
 

Dreamer

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Grennsboro NC
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TylerEMT,

That was a very well-written account of an event that many people these days would not have had the presence of mind to deal with so effectively. You handled it well, I think. It's also good to hear the LEO's treated you so well. They must have been informed by dispatch from one of the people that made a 911 call that YOU were the "good guy". You're lucky. In some states, or some counties, the cops would have just opened fire as a matter of course when they saw you holding a gun.

And you REALLY should write letters to the department commending the responding officers on the rational, professional way they handled the situation. We have a LOT of posts on here where people are harassed and hassled by LEO's for simple OC and the common recommendation is to file a formal complaint. In your case, however, I think some "positive reinforcement" would be a VERY good idea. Most cops NEVER hear positive feedback from civilians, and these guys really deserve to be recognized for their professional and rational handling of the situation.

The fact that the 2 BGs were "known BGs" and one had warrants on him only adds to the positive outcome of this event. Not only did you come out unscathed, but you actually helped in the capture and arrest of known criminals! Bravo!

Here's to hoping you never have to post another story like that!

Be safe...
 

Hiredgun30

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caldwell, Idaho, USA
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hey tyler.. good job... everytime i drive between boise and phoenix i go thru flagstaff. I always encounter a "less than desireable" person while i am pumping gas. I have also noticed that there is alot of homeless drifters around. stay safe..
 

Streetbikerr6

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Folsom, , USA
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HankT wrote:
deepdiver wrote:
This is one of those great situations for discussion that worked out well where the OP didn't do anything wrong but could have done things differently (not right - just different). If Tyler had stayed in the car it very much could have ended up in a "have to shoot" situation, which it didn't. So he gets out and the guy is within 21'. Keep the door open and between you? What if he rushes and slams you between the door & car body? That isn't good. Retreat far enough to get the car between you and him? Maybe not feasible and retreat could be construed as cowardice leading to an attack and the necessity of a firing.
Sounds to me that OP may have instigated the conflict a bit.

Why he got out of the car with a drawn pistol is.....um.....questionable. Need more data to know for sure. Probably a mistake, especially since it took him away from his phone.

I'm still wondering whatthe guys werearrested for, especially Mr. Knife Wielder. That seems important.

I'd like to read more details. We've only gotten a first single accont of the incident. There is more involved, I'm sure.


Finally, this was no "attempted car jacking." It wa a crime, but it wasn't that one. Maybe I'm missing something...


You honk your horn because a light is green and someone gets out weilding a knife progressing torwards you. You OBVIOUSLY have reason to fear for your life.


So why he got out of the car with a pistol is NOT questionable or a mistaketo a reasonable person. You sir,just seem very unreasonable.

You're still wondering what mr knife wielder was arrested for? Hmm, brandishing a weapon, wreckless endagerment, disorderly conduct, disturbing the peace. Take your choice or choose all of them.

As for the actual Arizona law...

13-421. Justification; defensive display of a firearm; definition

A. The defensive display of a firearm by a person against another is justified when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.

B. This section does not apply to a person who:

1. Intentionally provokes another person to use or attempt to use unlawful physical force. ( A HORN HONK DOES NOT APPLY, DON'T EVEN GO THERE)

2. Uses a firearm during the commission of a serious offense as defined in section 13-706 or violent crime as defined in section 13-901.03.

C. This section does not require the defensive display of a firearm before the use of physical force or the threat of physical force by a person who is otherwise justified in the use or threatened use of physical force.

D. For the purposes of this section, "defensive display of a firearm" includes:

1. Verbally informing another person that the person possesses or has available a firearm.

2. Exposing or displaying a firearm in a manner that a reasonable person would understand was meant to protect the person against another's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.

3. Placing the person's hand on a firearm while the firearm is contained in a pocket, purse or other means of containment or transport.
 

Streetbikerr6

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Citizen wrote:
marshaul wrote:
HankT wrote:
deepdiver wrote:
This is one of those great situations for discussion that worked out well where the OP didn't do anything wrong...
Sounds to me that OP may have instigated the conflict a bit...
...Gotta love Hank, always trying to blame the victim...

If anybodywould know aboutinstigating conflict, its HankT.

You should be careful aboutcriticizing an expert's opinion, Marshaul.

:)



I just criticized his opinion. Should I be careful since I corrected a so calledexpert? How about you be careful to cast judgement so quickly before collecting things called facts and law that may help an argument.

Don't just go saying "Oh I may need toresearch more databut it sounds like the OP is the instigator in this situation".

That's like me saying "Oh I may needmore databut it looks like your wrong and I'm right about everything I ever say, though in case I'm wrong it's ok because I said I didn't have the data and facts. So don't you dare try and criticize me because I'm an expert". Ok, makes sense buddy.


Edit: Oh and by the way TylerEMT, good for you! Great story, don't let yourself be bothered by people who think your life is not worth defending. Carry on my freind!

P.S. Anyone thinking I'm some nut who things a guncan be pulled on anyone for any reasoncan read my posts here.. my arguments will be apparent and based on California law, just like this was based on Arizona law.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/32391-3.html
 

Citizen

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Streetbikerr6 wrote:
Citizen wrote:
marshaul wrote:
HankT wrote:
deepdiver wrote:
This is one of those great situations for discussion that worked out well where the OP didn't do anything wrong...
Sounds to me that OP may have instigated the conflict a bit...
...Gotta love Hank, always trying to blame the victim...

If anybodywould know aboutinstigating conflict, its HankT.

You should be careful aboutcriticizing an expert's opinion, Marshaul.

:)
SNIP I just criticized his opinion. Should I be careful since I corrected a so calledexpert? How about you be careful to cast judgement so quickly before collecting things called facts and law that may help an argument.

I was making a very sarcastic comment about Hanky's expertness at needling and baiting forum members.

ETA: I see Deepdiver beat me to it. Yes, he called it exactly right.
 

Citizen

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GoldCoaster wrote:
nobucks wrote:
HankT wrote:
I'm still wondering whatthe guys werearrested for, especially Mr. Knife Wielder. That seems important.
Read the account again. The driver had outstanding warrants.
Read schmead... since when do facts get in the way of the postulizer?

Postulizer? What a way-cool word!!

Let me use it in asentence to help fix it in my vocabulary!

"We are getting fertilizer from the postulizer."

Yep. Got it.

:D:D:D:D
 

Dahwg

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Holy Smokes! Good Job Tyler, glad it turned out OK. Second dude got out of his car I'd be gunning the engine to get out of there! Of course if he chased me, then we'd have problems. Dang, I can't think of how it could have turned out better for you.
 

Sealgar

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I'm beginning to wonder if Hank is a liberal cop from the way he responds. Sure wouldn't want to be confronted by him in an official capacity.:cry:



Sealgar
 

okboomer

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Oklahoma, USA
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Good job Tyler!

Along with the recommendations to write letters to the officers, you might also consider taking out an ad in the local newspaper to publish the letter and describing the incident so other folks will see reasonable and measured use of a firearm by a citizen. It is stories like this that need to be publicized, rather than exclusively shooting stories. This incident should bolster the continued support of SDA by legislators in your state. Does AZ have OC? This type of incident would also bolster passage of that type of legislature.
 

Thoreau

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TylerEMT wrote:
I was on my way to my work to pick up my check. I pull up behind a red older Cadillac stopped at a green light in the turn lane, traffic was dense and cars were building up behind me. I gave a single, short honk to alert the driver that the light was green. As soon a I honked, the passenger stepped out of the car and began to scream at me. He started banging on the hood of my truck, yelling to get out. I put the car in park, and I unbuckled my seatbelt to have better access to my gun. I then locked the doors. He then reached into his pocket, which caused me to upholstered my gun and opened my door. He flicked open a knife, and I stepped away from my truck and drew down on him. I told him to drop the knife; he didn't. At this point there was about 5-8 feet in between us, and he was now holding the knife at his side. He looked pissed and confused that I was pointing a gun at him. I told him a second time to drop it. He didn't drop it, but he looked like he was arguing with himself in his head about what to do. I told him he needed to drop the knife or I was going to shoot. He threw the knife at the curb and held his hands out. I told him to lay on his stomach, and put his hand out like an airplane. It was at this point I realized two things, 1, I had no way of calling 911 because my phone was in my car, and, 2, I wasn't paying any attention to the driver. I told him not to move and started to watch the driver. I was able to watch the guy on the ground out of my peripheral and see what the driver was doing. He was just sitting there watching me with his hands in the air.The lady that pulled behind me got out of her car and I could hear she was already on the phone with 911. I stood there for what seemed hours before a cop car pulled up in front of their car. He yelled at me to holster my gun and put my hands on top of my head. I did this, and he came and handcuffed the guy on the ground. Another patrol car came up and pulled the guy out of the car. A third cop came up and walked me to his car (with my hands on my head). He disarmed me and asked me what happened. I told him that I thought he was going to kill me, I'm really upset, and I'll answer his questions when I had time to calm down with a lawyer. The cops got the story form a bunch of the bystanders, so I didn't have to say anything (or incriminate myself accidentally). He gave me my magazine and a bullet back and told me to put it in my car. When I got back he gave me my gun and told me to put it in my car. Both guys were arrested (the driver had warrants). I was very happy with the way the police handled the situation. I didn't get guns pointed at me, I wasn't put in handcuffs, and I wasn't treated like a criminal. I was a victim from the second the cops had control of my gun.

Wow, not what one might expect of the 'quiet little mountain town' up there! (Probably won't be enough to convince most people at NAU, but either way, glad everything turned out well!)

If memory serves you only recently even started carrying according to your posts in the AZ section. Talk about a short amount of time from starting to carry to having to actually use it...
 

Statesman

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TylerEMT wrote:
No, there was no reason for any further statement from me. I was clearly the victim based on everyone else's statements. I was never even really questioned. You mention lawyer and they don't really talk to you anymore. I felt the police handled the situation better than I could have hoped for. I'm really glad they didn't make me drop my gun on the asphalt or handcuff me.
My hat is off to Arizona (local?) PD for not treating the victim like a criminal. Indeed, if you go through any self-defense incident where anyone is armed, everyone is going to get disarmed when the police show up. This is the right thing to do until the situation is assessed.

However, if I were instructed to drop my steel/aluminum Kimber Ultra Carry from the air on concrete, I'd be sending the PD a bill for the factory repair, or a new gun.
 
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