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Thread: Detroit Pastors Packing Heat

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    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...Ou_pwD9B2HVLO0

    DETROIT β€” The Rev. Lawrence Adams teaches his flock at the Westside Bible Church to turn the other cheek. Just in case, though, the 54-year-old retired police lieutenant also wears a handgun under his robe.
    Adams is one of several Detroit clergymen who have taken to packing heat in the pulpit. They have committed their lives to a man who preached nonviolence and told followers to love their enemies. But they also say it's up to them to protect their parishioners in church.


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    I am a Rev. And I carry a gun.

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    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
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    I too am an ordained minister. If I ever Pastor another church, I too will carry while at "work."
    -U.S. Army Veteran (2002-2005) 11BVB4 (Infantry, Airborne, Ranger, some other stuff) SGT (E-5)
    -Public Service Professional - I've done it all: LEO, FF, and EMT
    -Certified NRA Instructor
    -CPL / CCW (whatever other acronym you can think of for carrying a concealed pistol) Instructor
    -Co-founder of OKOCA

    I am not an attorney. None of my statements should be accepted, nor are they intended to be offered, as legal advice or fact of law.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    I'm not a "man of the cloth" of any denomination... and, although I only have a sketchy memory of my long ago readings of the Bible (newer version back in the early '80's) I do recall some bits that folks seem to not pay much attention to....

    Can't recall the verse but there is mention of "sell your garment and buy a sword" and.. "beat your plowshares into swords"...

    Swords in that day were the guns of today and I personally believe that God fully intends for His children to use the weapons of the day to protect themselves from evil when evil comes to visit.

    Evil is no respecter of time or place in it's search for victims. Evil holds no respect even for God's house here on earth.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    luke 22:36

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    Also Exodus 22:2 and Nehemiah 4: 17-18, Psalm 144:1, among others.springerdave.

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    Isaiah 1:17: http://bible.cc/isaiah/1-17.htm

    Just think of the children!
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

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    Regular Member dukenukum's Avatar
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    I to am a preacher and I most certainly carry a gun or two.

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    My dad is a pastor, and he also carries, ALWAYS..

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    I have recently stared a blog at WhyGunControl.blogspot.com that encourages anti-gunners to take a second look at the issue, and maybe become gunners themselves, or at least respect others rights to bear arms.

    I am in the process of writing an article about the ministers and private school principles who conceal carry.

    I would appreciate supporting information on the number of pastors who do so. If you would be willing to go on record or even give some data anonymously, I would appreciate it.

    Thank you.

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    Welcome to OCDO. I see you have at least been using the search function, and we appreciate that, however, you might do better to start a new thread on the topic.

    Personally, I am hesitant to attend a church that does not practice what they preach by not bearing arms.

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    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
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    Im not a pastor or anything even near one, but my kids tell me I preach too much

    and I have been know to tote one or two guns at a time!
    Last edited by Onnie; 03-02-2011 at 05:49 PM.
    When Guns are OUTLAWED, Ill be an OUTLAW
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    Im not a lawyer, but I did play a Klingon once at Universal Studios

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    Regular Member MarineSgt's Avatar
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    I'm going to be a Pastor and I carry...
    Someone who can't be trusted to walk free in public with a firearm shouldn't be walking around free.

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    Regular Member sprinklerguy28's Avatar
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    Several months ago I switched churches. My previous church allowed CC only. My new church, Paradox Church, in Warren respects the right to carry OC or CC. They also advertise my CPL classes and MOC events at their information table that is setup when you first walk in. We are also currently working on a training class for multiple churches and denominations. The goal is to educate everyone on the laws, even if they choose to not carry.

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    My CPL instructor is also a pastor.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    For those of you indicating you are, will become, or know a pastor who carries, are or will the church-goers allowed to be lawfully armed as well?
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    I also am a minister now, & I carry always, except where NOT allowed...

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    You are allowed to cary in your church as long as you are the pastor ( OR ) if your pastor etc... gives you permission

    Bronson is correct in some churches the board does make the rules, the preacher is only a spritual advisor ..
    Last edited by mastiff69; 03-03-2011 at 11:25 AM.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mastiff69 View Post
    You are allowed to cary in your church as long... your pastor etc... gives you permission
    Only if the Pastor is the presiding official. In some churches there is a board of directors or some equivalent that handles secular affairs while the Pastor/Minister/Priest only deals with spiritual matters.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mastiff69 View Post
    You are allowed to cary in your church as long as you are the pastor ( OR ) if your pastor etc... gives you permission
    Actually, you may be the pastor, but you may not carry if there is a prohibition on carry from your higher church management or ownership.

    That being said, my question still is unanswered by your response:
    For those of you indicating you are, will become, or know a pastor who carries . . . are or will the church-goers allowed to be lawfully armed as well?
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member MarineSgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    Actually, you may be the pastor, but you may not carry if there is a prohibition on carry from your higher church management or ownership.

    That being said, my question still is unanswered by your response:
    For those of you indicating you are, will become, or know a pastor who carries . . . are or will the church-goers allowed to be lawfully armed as well?
    If/when I become a Pastor, as long as the Elders agree, I would like to publicly give permission for people to OC or CC. I'll reserve LGOC for confessing members .
    Someone who can't be trusted to walk free in public with a firearm shouldn't be walking around free.

  22. #22
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarineSgt View Post
    If/when I become a Pastor, as long as the Elders agree, I would like to publicly give permission for people to OC or CC.
    Is agreement from Elders required or an informal (non-binding) practice?

    And, either way, if hypocrisy is exposed in the form of some in the church allowed to carry while others are not, what would be your plan to address it, so that either carry is allowed for all or allowed for no one?

    After that, if no one is allowed to carry, how would you plan to address with your Elders the multiple irrationalities with your church being made a Criminal Empowerment Zone?

    You introduced some complexities in your answer which require these follow up questions. I am merely curious, and appreciate your responses.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Only if the Pastor is the presiding official. In some churches there is a board of directors or some equivalent that handles secular affairs while the Pastor/Minister/Priest only deals with spiritual matters.

    Bronson
    Then the pastor can give "permission".

    What about Amendment 1, whatever happened to that? Carrying arms is religious doctrine, at least in any Christian religion, therefore, the government is prohibited from enacting laws that restrict the exercise of those practices.

  24. #24
    Regular Member MarineSgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    Is agreement from Elders required or an informal (non-binding) practice?

    The form of "church government" at my church is that of a Presbytery or rather a group of Elders. At our church all of the authority is held with the Elders. Our Pastor is considered an Elder. If I'm not mistaken, according to MI law I could get permission from my Pastor to carry and that would be good enough. However, since our church is ruled by Elders it would be appropriate for me to ask them.

    There are a few different forms of church government. I believe the Presbyter model is the most biblical model. There are also Episcopal, and Congregational (democratic). In the last two models it would more than likely be customary that the Pastor/Clergy could make this call on their own unless it caused a stir.


    And, either way, if hypocrisy is exposed in the form of some in the church allowed to carry while others are not, what would be your plan to address it, so that either carry is allowed for all or allowed for no one?

    I know some churches allow the Elders and Deacons to CC but don't give permission to the congregation. I would fight it tooth-and-nail to get permission for everyone to OC or CC, but ultimately the decision would not be mine.

    It would be interesting if and when a membership is granted that it came with a permission to CC in church.


    After that, if no one is allowed to carry, how would you plan to address with your Elders the multiple irrationalities with your church being made a Criminal Empowerment Zone?

    I don't have a good answer for this one. If at first I didn't succeed I would probably bring it up again at a later date to see if any minds have been changed.

    You introduced some complexities in your answer which require these follow up questions. I am merely curious, and appreciate your responses.
    I hope I answered your questions sufficiently. Feel free to ask any more questions!
    Last edited by MarineSgt; 03-03-2011 at 01:00 PM. Reason: SP errors
    Someone who can't be trusted to walk free in public with a firearm shouldn't be walking around free.

  25. #25
    Regular Member MarineSgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Then the pastor can give "permission".

    What about Amendment 1, whatever happened to that? Carrying arms is religious doctrine, at least in any Christian religion, therefore, the government is prohibited from enacting laws that restrict the exercise of those practices.
    Yes, I feel it was unconstitutional for the government to prevent firearms to be carried in churches with the force of law. A church is already a private gathering, therefore the owners/leaders/members already have private property rights.

    If the church meets in public, I don't see how they could stop someone from carrying. If a church is having a service in the local public park, is the whole park now a "church"?
    Someone who can't be trusted to walk free in public with a firearm shouldn't be walking around free.

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