• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

San Diego meetup 17OCT

C

chewy352

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Messages
769
Location
Harrah, Oklahoma
imported post

SDPISTOLGRIP wrote:
Duuuhhhhh! I gotta start reading entire posts a bit better. 1:00pm it is. :banghead:

Regarding the case law; Regardless of length weather it be pistol or long gun a firearm is a firearm. The text that specifically mentions long gun:

"(2) When the firearm is an unloaded pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed on the person and is in a locked
container or within the locked trunk of a motor vehicle."

Is meaning that if you have it locked in a container unloaded then you can not be charged with 626.9pc. That does not mean that you can walk around within school limits (1000' K-12) with a rifle over your shoulder. I think it reads pretty clear on that.

So regardless of what kind of firearm it is if your in the school zone (1000" K-12) make sure its unloaded, and in a lock box in the truck. Period.
Click to expand...
You missed the second paragraph of section 2. This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful transportation of any other firearm, other than a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person, in
accordance with state law.


According to pc 12025: (2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

Therefore if I am wearing shorts and a t-shirt my shotgun would not be capable of being concealed. Whereas if I was wearing a trench coat it would be capable of being concealed



626.9. (a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the
Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.
(b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person
knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in
paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written
permission of the school district superintendent, his or her
designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as
specified in subdivision (f).
(c) Subdivision (b) does not apply to the possession of a firearm
under any of the following circumstances:
 (1) Within a place of residence or place of business or on private
property, if the place of residence, place of business, or private
property is not part of the school grounds and the possession of the
firearm is otherwise lawful.
(2) When the firearm is an unloaded pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed on the person and is in a locked
container or within the locked trunk of a motor vehicle.
This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
transportation of any other firearm, other than a pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person, in
accordance with state law.


However I was asking you for your opinion on this lol:dude: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=32434&forum_id=7
 
C

CA_Libertarian

State Researcher
Joined
Jul 18, 2007
Messages
2,585
Location
Stanislaus County, California, USA
imported post

chewy352 wrote:
...

According to pc 12025: (2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

Therefore if I am wearing shorts and a t-shirt my shotgun would not be capable of being concealed. Whereas if I was wearing a trench coat it would be capable of being concealed
Click to expand...
Interesting read on the law there, but an incorrect one.

"Firearm capable of being concealed" is statutorily defined, and describes particluar weapons (e.g "short-barreled rifles/shotguns).

Code: 
12001. (a) (1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol,"  "revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person"  shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a  weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any  explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less  than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that  has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be  interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
 
C

CA_Libertarian

State Researcher
Joined
Jul 18, 2007
Messages
2,585
Location
Stanislaus County, California, USA
imported post

**Forum wouldn't let me finish writing my above post... kept tacking it on to the end of the PC citation...**

So, you could in fact wear your shotgun under a trench coat... or in a guitar case... or wrapped in blanket... etc. 12025 and 626.9 apply ONLY to handguns and "short-barreled" long guns.
 
C

chewy352

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Messages
769
Location
Harrah, Oklahoma
imported post

CA_Libertarian wrote:
chewy352 wrote:
...

According to pc 12025: (2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

Therefore if I am wearing shorts and a t-shirt my shotgun would not be capable of being concealed. Whereas if I was wearing a trench coat it would be capable of being concealed
Click to expand...
Interesting read on the law there, but an incorrect one.

"Firearm capable of being concealed" is statutorily defined, and describes particluar weapons (e.g "short-barreled rifles/shotguns).

Code: 
12001. (a) (1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol," "revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
Click to expand...
This is why I love this forum. I never looked at that PC.

So If I understand correctly for example I wish to carry my Remington 870 express with a 28" barrel. No where on Remington'swebsite for that firearm does it included a barrel less than 16". Therefore it is not designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length. Nor does it have a barrel less than 16 inches in length.

So my shotgun is not considered concealable? A barrel less than 16" in length for a shotgunis illegal in CA anyways, is it not?

Thank You everyone for your help and letting me pick your brains.
 
demnogis

demnogis

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2008
Messages
911
Location
Orange County, California, USA
imported post

If an OC/UOC event is held within the magical 1000' "Victim Disarmament Zone" I will not risk showing up with a firearm. I understand pushing the envelope but that's something where it's too easy for local PD to call in an FBI assistance. Sure we could skate by local PD charges, but federal? Hmmm... Bad idea.

Until 626.9/626.95 are overturned and/or stricken from the books in CA, I would highly advise against having a carry event within the 1000' radius of a school.
 
P

pullnshoot25

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
1,139
Location
Escondido, California, USA
imported post

Careful with pushing the envelope too much.

Even though the 2nd amendment is good in Federal court (should you get a GFSZ charge), none of this has been adjudicated in the courts as of yet. SDPD would probably love nothing more than popping everyone for bogus charges just to spite people and stop OCing altogether.

This may sound really lame coming from a die-hard OCer but if you are packing a long gun ANYWHERE near a school zone, I would keep it concealed.

The good news is that I am working with a local military store to develop a rad case for packing long guns. It *should* be about a month before it is designed, developed and sent to me for testing.

Overall, Cato has a really good commentary on this. I am certain he will come on by in a little while to comment.
 
C

chewy352

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Messages
769
Location
Harrah, Oklahoma
imported post

Ya I'm taking a step back and doing more thorough research on the applicable laws and case laws. Right now I am uncertain if I will carry one or not into a school zone.

I appreciate everyones help in this effort. I will continue to post my understanding of the laws as you all know I am still a novice and very much take into account your interpretations, understanding, and experience.
 
C

chewy352

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Messages
769
Location
Harrah, Oklahoma
imported post

Here is my research on longguns and PC 626.9. In my opinion based on my research ofPC 626.9my remington 870 express is not restricted by this PC asit is not by definition capable of being concealed.Dissect away because I probably missed something.

CA PC 626.9 (b) "Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone"

CA PC 626.9(c)(2) "When the firearm is an unloaded pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed on the person and is in a locked
container or within the locked trunk of a motor vehicle.
This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
transportation of any other firearm, other than a pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person, in
accordance with state law."

CA PC 626.9(e)(2) states, "Firearm" has the same meaning as that term is given in
Section 12001."

Firearm as defined by CA PC 12001(b) is, "any device, designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel, a projectile by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion."

CA PC 626.9(e)(4) states, "Concealed firearm" has the same meaning as that term is given in Sections 12025 and 12026.1."

CA PC 12025(a) defines carrying a concealed firearm as, "(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(3) Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which he
or she is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person."

CA PC 12026.1(a) defines what is not concealed, "(a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not prohibited by state
or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a
firearm, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that
the following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container."

"Capable of being concealed" is defined In CA PC 12001

CA PC 12001(a)(1) defines "capable of being concealed" as, "any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length."
 
L

lorax3

New member
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
8
Location
, ,
imported post

[/b]
chewy352 wrote:
...

So my shotgun is not considered concealable? A barrel less than 16" in length for a shotgun is illegal in CA anyways, is it not?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

No long arms are not considered concealable.

Shotguns with an OAL of less then 26" or barrels less then 18" are illegal on both a federal and state level unless you are properly registered with per the NFA. (Which for SBS's is impossible unless it meets the C&R requirement in CA)

626.9 does not apply to normal rifles and shotguns or seemingly to non-handgun title 1 firearms either. It does apply to SBR/SBS's and AOW's.

Basically you would know if your shotgun was an AOW or SBS because it requires massive amounts of paperwork.

Re: Us v Lopez. I brought that up because even though you cannot be charged for 626.9 with a shotgun, they can charge with the federal school zone law.

Even if 'they' know it won't stick due to it not effecting interstate commerce they can charge you, can force you to appear in court and hire lawyer, just to 'drain the $$ resources' of the open carry movement. - I'm talking about about thousands pre-trial. Take a look at the Thesues case.

Again, please do not carry in school zones at all. I would even say to stop carrying until we can get true incorporation of the 2A of the second amendment through SCOTUS.

If you do get brought up on a 626.9 charge understand that you cannot challenge the constitutionality of the law without 2A backing, which is not yet established. Also a 626.9 charge comes with a ten year firearms prohibition along with the misdemeanor or felony.

I would urge you to read the advice of CGF legal council, and talk to pullandshoot25 and some of the originators of the OC movement in San Diego about their experiences. You will be surprised how much we have learned the hard way.

I would hope you stop blindly following those who lead you into territory of getting a felony.

-lorax
 
C

chewy352

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Messages
769
Location
Harrah, Oklahoma
imported post

Oh ya I learned my lesson really quick on blindly following people. And as for learning from the people who have learned the hard way that's why I post my ideas and research for their opinions.
 
F

flintlock tom

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
405
Location
San Diego, California, USA
imported post

This is why I love this forum. I never looked at that PC.

So If I understand correctly for example I wish to carry my Remington 870 express with a 28" barrel. No where on Remington'swebsite for that firearm does it included a barrel less than 16". Therefore it is not designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length. Nor does it have a barrel less than 16 inches in length.

So my shotgun is not considered concealable? A barrel less than 16" in length for a shotgunis illegal in CA anyways, is it not?

Thank You everyone for your help and letting me pick your brains.
Click to expand...
Be careful here. I think the 16" minimum length applys only to short barreled rifles. The minimum length for shotguns is 18".
 
bigtoe416

bigtoe416

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Messages
1,747
Location
Oregon
imported post

I may be in the minority in this case, but you guys are way too worried about the federal gun free school zone law. The federal government doesn't have the authority to pass such laws, the supreme court flat out said so. Case closed. I've carried long rifles inside of a school zone before and I'm not in the slightest bit worried about violating some federal law.

Say you get arrested for it though, Lopez is old case law, police officers should be aware of it if they are aware of the federal GFSZ "laws". Any officer enforcing those laws is open to being sued, and you should prevail providing that you can say the words, "Supreme Court" and "Lopez". No need for a lawyer unless your case is somehow different from Lopez.

Congress can pass a law outlawing free speech, which would be ruled unconstitutional. Would we worry about violating that law? Of course not. Don't worry about this either.

What does make me more worried is the wording of the California description of what a concealable weapon is. Designed to accept a barrel shorter than 16"? I'm pretty sure there are AR-15s out there with shorter barrels than 16", does that mean an AR-15 is a concealable weapon? That's ridiculous, but it seems like that's what the law says.
 
coolusername2007

coolusername2007

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2009
Messages
1,659
Location
Temecula, California, USA
imported post

Good points Bigtoe. I think most are just kind of tiptoeing until the 2nd is incorporated, I know I am. I suspect all here will definitely "relax" after that. Further, even though many herewill agreethe law would 'ultimately' be on theirside, the cost of getting there is somewhat of a deterrance, especially in this economy.
 
C

chewy352

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Messages
769
Location
Harrah, Oklahoma
imported post

coolusername2007 wrote:
Good points Bigtoe. I think most are just kind of tiptoeing until the 2nd is incorporated, I know I am. I suspect all here will definitely "relax" after that. Further, even though many herewill agreethe law would 'ultimately' be on theirside, the cost of getting there is somewhat of a deterrance, especially in this economy.
Click to expand...
That's exactly what has changed my mind about carrying there. I don't have the funds to prove my innocence as we are all guilty until proven innocent......Wait a min that doesn't sound right!!!! :lol:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top