Myth of knockdown power

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They way I understood "Knockdown Ability" is that action felt by the target, can be no greater than the recoil felt by the shooter.

I have yet to see recoil from any handgun knock someone off their feet.

Deer shooting, I use a 22-250 loaded with a Barnes solid copper hollow-point, a tiny little 52 grain bullet that zips along at, or near 4,000 FPS. I commonly see deer drop in their tracks with that round when I take a neckshot. andshots into the chest cavitycommonly result in seeing a large high jump with a nose dive into the groundand they do not get up.

The only thing I can figure why my neckshots drop them so quickis that I am creating a major stroke in the deers brain from the increased blood-pressure coming from the carotid and jugular being compressed by the pressure wave/energy transferof the hit.
A few friends of mine use minster caliber rounds for deer, and think that if you do not have a fist-sized exit wound in the deer, he will run for miles. I have proven them wrong on numerous occasions, I just prefer fast flat-trajectory rifles with low recoil. There is no reason to shoot a .300 Win-Mag at a deer IMO.

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Nutczak wrote:

There is no reason to shoot a .300 Win-Mag at a deer IMO.

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Sure there is!
More energy at longer ranges.
At 400+ yards the smaller/lighter caliber would be a disadvantage, imho.

I perfer 30-06 and 45-70, just call me old fashion.

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As for SD calibers choose/carry what you can shoot well and what makes you feel comfortable.

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Think about Bernie Goetz's subway assailants. The only round that really did anything permanent was a second round fired point blank after the fight was over.

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I'd appreciate it if you kept vicious leftist slander off the forum. The police report (including hospital records clearly stating each assailant was hit once) and witness testimony clearly indicates that there was no second round of shooting. All but one witness (who's testimony was found to be utterly unreliable) reported hearing 4-5 shots in rapid succession, with no pause in between. Which is consistent with each thug being struck once, with one bullet hitting a bench (Goetz was using a 5 shot revolver). The 'extra shot' was a blatant lie made up to slander Mr. Goetz and paint his actions as something other than what it was, which was self-defense against a group of thugs and robbers. The fact that this lie is still spoken after being so thoroughly disproven is a pretty big indicator of what the left thinks of your right to self defense.

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Nutczak wrote:

Deer shooting, I use a 22-250 loaded with a Barnes solid copper hollow-point, a tiny little 52 grain bullet that zips along at, or near 4,000 FPS. I commonly see deer drop in their tracks with that round when I take a neckshot. andshots into the chest cavitycommonly result in seeing a large high jump with a nose dive into the groundand they do not get up.........

I just prefer fast flat-trajectory rifles with low recoil. There is no reason to shoot a .300 Win-Mag at a deer IMO.

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A small bullet makes a less than perfect shot worse. Nothing magic about a .22-250. I have killed deer with a .223 and I know that a .22-250 is a find deer round at the appropriate ranges. I stay away from neck shots. Too much non-vital area. I can hit a swinging bowling pin at 200 yds, but I will not chance a less than perfect neck shot. Nothing magic about a .22-250 and "pressure wave energy"(hydrostatic shock). Directdamage to the spinal column or sudden blood loss to the brain is more likelywith a fortunate shot. A small fast bullet is fine if the deer is cooperating by standing still waiting for you to shoot it. Once they start moving, head and neck shots are out and you can not count on a perfectbroad side chest shot. A .22-250 along with a .223 is a fine deer round at reasonably close ranges with assured shot placement. I have seen too many bad shots by other people wound a deer and they never find it after tracking it for hours.

A .300 Win mag is definitely more than it necessary at the average hunting distances, but it sure is nice to zero a rifle at 200 yds and be able to hit anything from zero to 300 yds without adjusting much if at all for elevation and knowing that if you hit a running deer in the shoulder blade that the bullet will have zero problems punching right through and stopping the deer in its tracks. The same can not be said about the small fast bullets. They simply are not intended for that use and no bullet manufacturer would ever dream of making such a claim.

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Nutczak wrote:

They way I understood "Knockdown Ability" is that action felt by the target, can be no greater than the recoil felt by the shooter.

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Momentum is conserved, in this case less the velocity lost, but momentum is not the whole story, impulse must also be considered, as recoil-pads and shock absorbers.

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A .22lr fired into a red fox's heart doesn't knock it down, but the fox does stumble and fall over within 5 seconds or so. There is also little to no blood. Most times I can't even find the entry hole until I skin the fox. However I can see when it hits, the fur poofs a little. The thoracic cavity is filled with blood from lung shots, the heart shots, some leaks, but alot is within the paracardium sac still.

In general a shot to the torso doesn't show much if any blood. Oh and the blood is usually bright red, not the old dark stuff of the fake blood squibs used in Hollywood.

And yes I realize the CNS hit is the ONLY one that will drop a person right away with a handgun round. Even a nonfatal head shot can create the wacked on the head with a heavy hammer effect and cause immediate unconciousness, or at least cause enough of a stun effect that you have time to retreat or get better cover.

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Knockdown power re-defined

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Although I have never been knocked off my feet by the recoil of even a full-house .44 Magnum; I would say that if I shoved someone hard enough on the shoulder to produce a similar sensation in the palm of my hand. they would certainly stagger back half a step or more.

Back in the Security Police Academy at Lackland AFB we were admonished to hold the riot gun snug against the hollow of the shoulder. One guy decided to test this by firing with the butt of the stock about an inch away. fortunately he was not injured but among other things bellowed by SSgt Pommerelle was that he could have broken his collar bone and - as the saying goes - "damaged Government property". The force was sufficient to spin him about 1/4 way around. He was ordered to carry the weapon at "safe-port arms" (if anyone remembers riot control class this is really uncomfortable) the entire 1 1/2 mile march to the armory to a very embarrassing cadence call where the squadron called out "Who's the dumb ass" and he had to respond "I'm a dumbass!"

Even so, I don't think anyone is going to be literally knocked down to say nothing of being blown backward by force of a bullet. As a practical matter it is best to go for the "lethal triangle", and for body-armored targets a shot to the upper legs or pelvic region followed by a head shot is probably most effective. This is just theory, however as personally I have never had to shoot anyone. And I hope I never do.

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I just set my auto phaser to 'Vaporize' and hope for the best when anyone enters my defensive sphere.

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Well, heck!

You all have me convinced now to sell all my guns and build a brick launcher.

:uhoh:

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Alexcabbie wrote:

Although I have never been knocked off my feet by the recoil of even a full-house .44 Magnum; I would say that if I shoved someone hard enough on the shoulder to produce a similar sensation in the palm of my hand. they would certainly stagger back half a step or more.

One guy decided to test this by firing with the butt of the stock about an inch away. The force was sufficient to spin him about 1/4 way around. .

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A .44 Mag 240gr at 1760fps fired from a 7lb rifle will give you 11lbs of recoil force against your shoulder. About the same as the typical 170gr .30-30 @ 2200fps.

A 12 gauge with buckshot can easily develop 3 or 4 times that recoil force.

If you allow a handgun or long gun (3lb+ handgun or 7lb+ shotgun) to gain momentum before hitting you, you have much more force hitting you. You must calculate that force by taking the weight of the firearm and the velocity it is traveling before it hits you. The same thing goes for your hand hitting someone's shoulder. Your hand gains momentum before it hits their shoulder. The weight of your arm is much more than a firearm, especially if you put your body weight into the slap.

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Yeah well like I said, nobody's gonna be knocked down. But neither will they just stand there stock-still while being drilled (unless maybe with a .25 or .22). Having a heavy-caliber bullet hit you will most definitely throw you off-balance. Being hit with a .44 might even, say with a hit to the shoulder, cause you to trip over your own feet and fall as you spin and react. But just bullet impact won't knock an average guy down from kinetic force alone.

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I don't believe the kinetic force of my 185 or 230 GR JHP's are going to spin anyone around or push anyone around, but I sure hope they make a big enough hole to ensure enough leaks to run out of fluids at some point very soonafter they've been put there. A hole in the squash usually makes the lights go out, even if installed by a .22, provided its in the RIGHT PLACE.

Shot placement is EVERYTHING!

Semper Paratus!
msc

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Alexcabbie wrote:

Yeah well like I said, nobody's gonna be knocked down. But neither will they just stand there stock-still while being drilled (unless maybe with a .25 or .22). Having a heavy-caliber bullet hit you will most definitely throw you off-balance. Being hit with a .44 might even, say with a hit to the shoulder, cause you to trip over your own feet and fall as you spin and react. But just bullet impact won't knock an average guy down from kinetic force alone.

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There are many instances where people have been shot with large caliber bullets ......... and didn't even notice at the moment of impact due to adrenaline, drugs, or just a determined mind set.

All this talk about "momentum", and "spinning folks off balance", and bigger bullets will stop someone quicker than little bullets", is junk science.

There are only 3 ways to stop a human being from attacking...

1. Psychological: The person realized they have been shot and consciously make the decision to stop on their own. That decision doesn't have to have anything to do with the amount of damage done by the bullet. And there is no guarantee when that decision will be made... or even if it will ever be made.

2. Loss of blood supply to the brain: Enough damage was done to the circulatory system (blood ran out) so no more blood gets to the brain shutting down the ability for the brain to control the body. Loss of enough blood to shut down the brain can take enough time to allow several 10s of seconds or even a minute or so for the attack to continue until the blood supply stops.

3. Damage to the brain itself: The brain is damaged to the point where it loses the ability to control the body.

Please note that the brain is the commonality in all 3.

A small bullet to the brain will work just as well as a big one. A small bullet to the heart (shuts off the blood supply) will work as well as a big one. Many small bullets to the torso creating many leaks will work as well as big bullets to the torso... although big bullets will create bigger leaks.

So what does all that mean? As has been said before in this discussion.... shot placement is more important than the size of the bullets.

In fact... I'll state that I believe many folks carry calibers that are too big simply because, due to recoil affecting accuracy, the big caliber tends to make for more chances of missing vital areas... or missing completely... when a smaller caliber more able to be controlled results in more accurate shots.

I say that because only bullets that hit are effective... misses don't do anything regardless of how big the bullet is. And hits that affect vitals are more effective than hits that affect nonvitals... regardless of how big the bullet is.

I believe that when choosing caliber we should ignore all the hype about "knock down power" and concentrate on whatever we personally can shoot the fastest, straightest, and most effectively.

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Prezactly. It's useless to knock somebody down (even if you can) if they are going to get right back up and try to kill you again. Thus the "7 Yard" rule, if a guy comes at you with a knife you better start shooting before he gets closer than 7 yards, or chances are excellent he will be able to get to you and hook that blade into your chitlin's before he is "pacified" (Side note: This makes me a "pacifist"; because I beleve in pacifying attackers. try this with one of the antis who says they are against guns because they are "pacifist"; and tell him - as I did one - that a firearm has been known to be an excellent pacifier. )

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Wow, I know you are stressed, but missed from 12 feet? Then the leg.
What pray tell were you pointing at? I know you were not aiming.

Do you think if you were not trying to lock up the man that he would be hanging
around trying to shoot it out after the first shot? He might shoot over his shoulder
while running away, but he would be leaving. You are trying to engage, we are
trying to disengage. Different objectives, different needs.

I guess you also forgot about energy and distribution.
Except in that lab in europe E=MC[sup]2[/sup] mass / velocity are the only variables,
and you can get the velocity closer to negate it also (+p).
That leaves mass, and you are not going to get a 9mm to equal a 45 in mass
and not break the law.
On the user end you can spread the energy through the frame and grip,
the other end gets to use their sternum, not as good an option.

I submit that a .45 expansion round made of depleted uranium would have a
much bigger impact on the receiver of such an honer. I don't care if he goes
flying back off the balcony, I don't care if he turns and runs. It is not attacking
me that counts. But you are also forgetting "Double Tap", you don't just
go one shot see if it works, then the next, check again.

Then there is the mental impression, the 'pop' of a 9mm vs the ear ringing from
the 44 mag. One might get ignored the other might fill his shorts. I flinched
when it was fired in the next lane from me and I had a headset on, wouldn't
want to be on the muzzle end of one at all.

I prefer more mass, I like the capacity of smaller calibers, but for defense I prefer
shock & awe. I want to drive the point home, go elsewhere, not suggest
they reconsider their decision at this juncture.

If you want him to indicate being hit, use a tracer round. Melting flesh gets your
attention real quick. Nerves may not register sudden destruction, but they do
register burning even after they are gone. I have never used one on a person
before, do you still see the tracer leaving on a through shot?
aka morse code dash body dash. :shock:
A HP tracer round bubbling away in a body cavity would give indications of a hit. :uhoh:

It would be nice if the government would conduct studies. Dope up a death row
inmates, and start seeing what really works.
I would love to read up on 'crack v 45' , 'meth v 9mm' 'pot v 10mm'. 'drunk v 40'.
Then extremidies, gut, chest, head shot differences of same.
But till they show me real evidence I will go with logic, math, and observation.

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If you think the 9mm round only makes a "pop" when fired, you are legally DEAF! The 9mm Parabellum round is a supersonic round and if fired without hearing protection, it is a very loud CRACK!. The .44 and .45 sound a little more like a "BOOM". Rifles are even louder. Even a .22 makes a pretty loud "CRACK" if you don't wear hearing protection.

Spent a lot of time on the range as a marksmanship instructor in the military for 22 years. I've only shot ONE weapon (comfortably) without the use of hearing protection. It was even at an indoor range!

When the ATF came to use my range in Cape Cod, MA, they brought their supressed MP5's and subsonic ammo for them. A supressor isn't much good unless you ALSO use subsonic ammo with it. You can shoot the supressed MP5 without hearing protection. The action of the bolt was the loudest part of the whole thing.

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Josef Mengele actually did some of those studies. Did you know that he found that one Mauser K98 round could kill up to eight people lined up butts-to-nuts? That litttle "experiment" was illustrated in the "Lodz Ghetto Liquidation" scene in "Schindler's List".

For all this talk about shot placement and kinetic energy and E=MC Hammer, one fact remains: You don't look for trouble and you don't shoot to kill. You shoot - if God forbid you must - to live or to protect innocent life.

The outcome of any conflict, once joined, is hardly fore-ordained. Chiauauas have savaged St. Bernards. I could very confidently write a book called "How to win any firefight guaranteed" because winning is surviving and to collect you would have to die. If a nobody like Obama can win the Presidency (and today the Nobel Prize :banghead then it stands to reason a BG with a .22 can drop you and your big bad 1911. Remember that Alvin York took out a squad of Germans armed with Mausers with nothing more than - yeah, yeah - an M1911. (he shot the rear soldier first and the first guys thought he was missing them until it was their turn. Brilliant!)

The slightest mistake, too much hesitation, a missed shot, etc. can enable a knife-wielding loon to kill a man armed with even a .500 Magnum. Legal justification for use of lethal force is pretty much limited to fear of death or gross bodily harm. In that state of mind, anything is possible, nothing is guaranteed, and seeing as this is the case; avoidance of a threat is the best of all strategies. But that is only mypersonal opinion, and I could be wrong.

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SlackwareRobert wrote:

But till they show me real evidence I will go with logic, math, and observation.

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Logic dictates that people do not catch bullets in their teeth. Bullets penetrate flesh. Since bullets are not stopped instantly andmay even exit the person, they are notgoing to know the difference between a well placed shot from a .44 Mag with 1000ft lbs and a 9mm with 350 ft lbs. 9mm is pretty loud when the muzzle is pointed at you. It is far from a pop. A .44 mag will not automatically make them stop trying to kill you, wet themselves and beg for your mercy.

Math dictates that since bullets can not travel at the speed of light and we are only concerned about kinetic energy not the energy it takes to get the bullet moving in the first place so we will stick with this formula...... Energy = weight * velocity^2 / 450450 Kinetic energy is not a direct measure of killing power or intimidation power.

Observation says that people can suck up a less than ideal shot from a .44 Mag even it it is a fatal wound and still mortally wound you before you can stop them... A .44 Mag will not kill you more dead. It will penetrate deeper and break bone better to get there. Energy allows it to go through more stuff to get to your target, your target's organs and CNS.

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Alex: Better check your references. Alvin York used a 1903 Springfield rifle, not a .45 to kill 25 Germans and capture 132 more. He carried a .45 when he was helping to guard the prisoners, but according to what I've read, he used his rifle, not a pistol to kill the Germans during his attack.