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Thread: Firearms + Alcohol = BAD ???

  1. #1
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    Didn't want to derail another thread, so I'll open this can-o-worms here...

    Nopal wrote:
    ...

    I know that San Diego has it's wine and food festival in November (I guess for us it'd be sans wine)...
    It seems I hear this a lot, and not just here. Is there a particular reason so many think this? Or is this just some FUD about "guns+alcohol=bad"?

    Assuming you aren't an alcohol addict (one who can't control their drinking), I see no harm in tasting some wine. After all, if it were harmful, we'd certainly have a law against it! (CA does not.)

    Carrying a firearm is far less dangerous than driving an automobile. If you're sober enough to drive, then you're certainly sober enough to carry a firearm.

    I carry a knife at all times, even when I go to a party and get COMPLETELY smashed. ("Completely smashed" is subjective, so let me give an example: the Century Challenge - that's 1 shot (1.5 ounces) of beer every minute for 100 minutes, which comes out to a 12-oz beer every 8 minutes, which is 12.5 beers in 1.66 hours. (In case you're wondering... yes, I made it to 100, yes I vomited 30 seconds later, and yes, I passed out immediately and woke up 3 hours later with the worst hangover you can imagine.)) My point is that even in my most inebriated moments, my knife has never hurt anybody. It stays safely in my pocket. So, why would my gun jump out of my holster if I were to just have a couple beers with dinner?

    I've bellied up to bars in 3 states (CA, AZ, & NV) and had a beer or two. (Though I later found out AZ actually has a law against this.) In all instances, I sat in locations where it was clear to staff and patrons that I was armed. In all instances, nobody seemed to be bothered.

    In fact, it's common for me to pack an ice chest with beer and water for my range days (at a private range, so I don't know how this would fly at a public range).

    I'm truly interested in having a reasonable debate about this, and am open to having my mind changed. So, please, don't be shy!
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    I can understand the arguments for not to drink while carrying, but if you drink to much to get drunk I think you have bigger problems.

    In any event I haven't seen any laws prohibiting it.

    Any thing done responsibly is, well responsible.

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    As long as someone takes full responsibility fortheir actions...I could care less if they're armed, drinking, sober or wearing a pink bunny suit.

    Either friday or saturday night of every week (sometimes both nights) I have a shot of Patron onthe rockscombined with a Miller Lite. I drink the two over the course of about4 hours while legally CCW.

    Neither my gun nor my knives have ever hurt anyone.

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    When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty.

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    mjones wrote:
    ...I could care less if they're armed, drinking, sober or wearing a pink bunny suit.
    I draw the line at wearing a pink bunny suit.

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    CA_Libertarian,



    This may come as a surprise, but I actually agree with you. I don't see a problem with enjoying a drink while armed.Actually, Idon't even think thata good number offolks who aren't yetfamiliar with open carry would object toan open carrier downing a beer. However, some would see it negatively, hencemy comment.



    The point of many of these get togethers/outings is to expose the public to the idea of open carry, and if possible, to compel them to ask questions.Some may see a bunch of armed guys drinking beer less aproachable than a bunch of armed guys, say, having ice cream.



    In general, you are right in that it's not alcohol that's the problem. However, there's thisperception floating out there ofalcoholin relation to guns. This perception is fed partially by media hype and bythings likeHollywood old west bar shooting scenes and otherstuff, that, though perhaps inaccurate,have deeply ingraned it in our culture. This perception may also give those that oppose us some ammunition should we choose to excercise our right to pack and drink. Remember,antis don't play fair.



    We have already taken it upon ourselves to challenge the stereotype of who carries guns and why, and that is quite a beast to take on all by itself.So, perhaps, I thought,it may be easier to take on onemisconception at a time. My commentwas merely an afterthought on how tokeep things simple in our next meeting, but if you must press the issue I must confess that I'm sort of ambivalent to folks drinking if it's held there. It isa Wine andfood festival, after all.

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    Oops, triple post. Sorry.

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    Oops, double post! Please ignore.

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    I shoot a lot. I mean a lot. I have my own range and various friends come by. We'll shoot for awhile and MAYBE have a beer or two. If we want to gab and drink more beer.....the guns are put up. Nuttin' wrong with that.

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    Nobody has came out against drinking and carrying? I'm rather surprised. I figured somebody would be against it. I'll throw out my argument for not drinking while carrying, but keep in mind I don't care either way, as long as people are being responsible, they can do whatever they want.

    If I were to argue the "don't drink and carry" point, I'd say something like...if you're carrying a gun, especially here in California, you need to be presenting an image to the public that we are responsible individuals. We have a big enough challenge as it is to overcome with converting anti's and people on the fence over OC, we should be appearing as thoughtful as possible. Hold doors open, smile at babies, and practice teatotalism when carrying.

    Another argument I could see being presented, and one I'd be more understanding of is...open carrying in California is tough enough as it is. You have to remember all sorts of laws and behaviors to protect yourself from anybody willing to do you harm and any police officers who might be looking to make an example of you. If you have to draw and fire your gun and you've had a couple of beers, you better remember to drop that empty magazine while drawing, load that mag on your weak side, rack the slide, focus on your front sight, consider the target and the backdrop, and squeeze the trigger. Do all that without mistakes and without faltering while you have alcohol impairing your abilities and I'd be impressed. The same can be said if an officer comes up on you and starts asking questions. Maybe you'll start talking to him when you should stand mute. Maybe you'll forget about key events which you should know for when you file your complaint later, who knows!

    I can't really imagine any other arguments. Like I said, I'm cool with people drinking responsibly while carrying. I just like arguing sides which I don't agree with, makes me think differently for a few minutes.

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    Firearms + TOO MUCH alcohol = Bad. I think there is A LONG WAY TO GO AND LOT MORE WORK to be done before we start combining carrying and drinking in this state.

    Am I against it, no not necessarily, but I'd be lying if I said I'd hang around whilesomeonewho I didn't REALLY knowdrinks and carries. IMO and experience, it's just not a good idea. I've just seen way too many people turn stupid with "one" too many. One instance of whichI was nearly shot point blank with arifle (either .243 or .270 don't remember) by someone who was (mis)handling the rifle and had too much to drink.

    The guns aren't the problem, and the alcohol isn't the problem, butpeople are full of problems. And I'm not that trusting.

    Would I be overly concerned seeing a family man dining with his family, enjoying a drink, and carrying? No.

    Would I enter abar scene where everyone is drinking merily, andone or morewere carrying? No.

    Would I be afraid to enjoy a cold one while carrying? No. But I also know that I drink responsibly regardless. Yet I do not mix the two.

    Do I believe you are free to do so? Yes. But I am free to leave, and would. I have no problems with a holstered sidearm and a cold beverage. The problem is if it's owner has one too many and that holstered sidearm becomes unholstered,you can go from zero to 1000 fps in, well...no time.

    Having said all that, I would have no problems with applying the same or similar alcohol levels laws(.08) to carrying aswith driving.


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    I agree with coolusername for the most part. In general I have a pretty basic view on personal Liberties. You can do what ever you want as long as you don't violate some one elses Rights. As far as having a .08 law while having a gun, I must admit I don't agree. Is it a bad idea to drink and carry? I would say YES. Do I believe it should be against the law with even more government regulation? Nope. I am not a fan of the nanny state we are slowly becoming.

    Here is a story that happened to me a few months ago. I was at my house in Vegas and my father came to stay for a weekend with me. I dropped him off at a local pub about 1 mile from my house. As he was drinking and playing video poker an African American group of about 3 were sitting next to him were free pouring from a bottle the bartender had left behind. My father say's " wow, that's one way to get free drinks!" They responded with " **** white boy and mind your own business". It soon escalated after the racial slur. My father then basically sat there getting verbally reamed for about an hour. We talked about it afterward and my father commented that if he were OC'ing he would have felt more comfortable standing up to them. My view was that OC'ing or not he should have left. He was concerned that if he did leave he would get jumped in the parking lot waiting for a cab.

    Bottom line is with any of your Rights they come with responsability. Eventually if the open carry movement grows a lot larger and gets more attention a shooting or other event involving a gun will take place with some one who was drinking. The mass media will get ahold of the story and eventually a bunch of politicians will draft legistlation to further restrict and regulate our Rights.

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    We talked about it afterward and my father commented that if he were OC'ing he would have felt more comfortable standing up to them.
    Now that comment makes me uncomfortable.

    As for the century challenge and you knife jumping out of your pocket I would expect it to jump out of the pocket of someone who had 3-4 beers than someone who was drinking at the rate of one beer per 8 minutes. Anyone who says that guns and alcohol mix fine are just as full of BS as those who say that they don't mix. You little story about you knife not jumping out of you pocket makes about as much sense as the ban on automatic weapons preventing rape.

    I have seen too many people use the excuse that they had a couple of beers to get mean, aggravating and downright obnoxious, just like those that think a CWP makes the a deputy sheriff or carrying a gun protects them from bad guys. Most people can have a glass of wine or a beer and no suffer any major ill effects from it. But don't try to tell me that there is no cause-effect relationship betweenshootings, either"accidential" or intentionaland alcohol.

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    Well, I've have had a bad experience with Liquor and Guns. Nobody got hurt (nothing went off but my mouth!) but my hangover was extra dark the next day.

    The week after I bought my first pistol I went camping with some friends. I strapped on a holster and packed my loaded pistol. I thought it was all pretty cool We were just drinking beer around a campfire, all good!

    Then somebody shows up with a bottle of Jaegermeister.

    I drink beer no problem, but I hard liquor sends me for a loop. After the jager bottle has made it around the campfire a few times,I realize i'mway more intoxicated than I should be with a firearm.

    As I realize this, I stash the gun in the motorhome, yet I don't take off the holster. I go back to the campfire, where the Jager is still going around (BAD idea!)

    As the fog starts toclear in the middle of the night, still around the campfire, I realize I have an empty holster. PANIC! I start scouring the campsite for my pistol, thinking it must have fallen out. Some of my friends are still up around the campfire, and we exchange some not-so-kind words as they laugh at my situation. I give up and go to bed. In the morning I find my pistol packed neatly where I stashed it (in my range bag!) and have the walk-of-shame around the campfire for being rude to my friends and a bad drunk.

    At that point I re-evaluated Alcohol & Firearms. I don't have a problem with a beer or two when shooting trap on a hot day; However, open carrying around a campfire in the dark when switching from beer to top-fuel is beyond what i'll do again.

    As an aside, I haven't had Jager since (that stuff goes down waaay too easy, its almost as evil as tequilia!).







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    Some of the steroided out guys where I live increase their chances greatly of picking a fight while drinking alcohol. It increases their sensitivity torwards "looks" or words and they see them as threats and their ego is hurt more easily so they must fight someone. Sometimes they just fight to fight. I have one friend who always looks for a fight when he gets drunk, but when hes sober hes like the nicest guy I know.

    I'm not saying a gun will jump out and shoot someone when hes drunk, but I'm also not saying that his fist will jump out and punch someone... hes just more likely to make that fist do that.

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    i think it makes sense that someone would be more comfortable OCing when engaged by a group of hostile people

    We talked about it afterward and my father commented that if he were OC'ing he would have felt more comfortable standing up to them.
    The two statements above are not the same at all. My point is that for anyone to say that if they had been OC'ing they would have stood up to them isasking for trouble. I carry a gun to use as a last defense not a first one. There is no doubt that if you are confronted by a group of hostile people then you would prefer to be armed but to say that you would stand up to them if armed yet "run away" if unarmed is exactly what the anti's preach about gun-owners. A trigger happy bunch looking for a reason to use their gun. A gun is a last resort, not a first.



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    PT111 wrote:
    i think it makes sense that someone would be more comfortable OCing when engaged by a group of hostile people

    We talked about it afterward and my father commented that if he were OC'ing he would have felt more comfortable standing up to them.
    The two statements above are not the same at all. My point is that for anyone to say that if they had been OC'ing they would have stood up to them isasking for trouble. I carry a gun to use as a last defense not a first one. There is no doubt that if you are confronted by a group of hostile people then you would prefer to be armed but to say that you would stand up to them if armed yet "run away" if unarmed is exactly what the anti's preach about gun-owners. A trigger happy bunch looking for a reason to use their gun. A gun is a last resort, not a first.


    +1 If I dont have to use my firearm I wont. It is the BGs choice not mine. I respond to his actions with appropriate level of force including walking away

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    PT111 wrote:
    i think it makes sense that someone would be more comfortable OCing when engaged by a group of hostile people

    We talked about it afterward and my father commented that if he were OC'ing he would have felt more comfortable standing up to them.
    The two statements above are not the same at all. My point is that for anyone to say that if they had been OC'ing they would have stood up to them isasking for trouble. I carry a gun to use as a last defense not a first one. There is no doubt that if you are confronted by a group of hostile people then you would prefer to be armed but to say that you would stand up to them if armed yet "run away" if unarmed is exactly what the anti's preach about gun-owners. A trigger happy bunch looking for a reason to use their gun. A gun is a last resort, not a first.



    Yes it is also the law, or else you can be charged with homicide. Here in Kali one must be in a situation where there is no other way of escaping being murrdered other than using your gun. Say if you are cornered by a group of hostile individuals. Though if you can run away and you use your gun, the judge will take you for a ride, be sure of it.

    Sometimes (edit: I wish)I lived in Texas, someone walks in my house I dont know I am allowed to shoot him dead if I feel necessary without any fear that a court will throw my ass in jail. Here in Kali you have to explain why you felt it was necessary to shoot the man coming at you with a knife in the dark when you could have ran out your back door instead, and you will still most likely be thrown in prison.

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    Streetbikerr6 wrote:
    Some of the steroided out guys where I live increase their chances greatly of picking a fight while drinking alcohol....
    ... and even some of the not "steroided out" guys.

    The reason I carry at bars is the same reason I carry when I go to the bank or to the grocery store. Self defense.

    I've been to many, many bars. I know many people who frequent bars. There's almost always going to be someone there looking for trouble. Some of them will bring weapons, or just bring enough friends that they can stomp you to the curb.

    Does my decision to have a drink at a bar mean I have to give up my right to life?

    I carry at bars because I don't want to die in the parking lot at the local bar & grill.
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    Streetbikerr6 wrote:
    ...

    Sometimes (edit: I wish)I lived in Texas, someone walks in my house I dont know I am allowed to shoot him dead if I feel necessary without any fear that a court will throw my ass in jail. Here in Kali you have to explain why you felt it was necessary to shoot the man coming at you with a knife in the dark when you could have ran out your back door instead, and you will still most likely be thrown in prison.
    Actually... CA has for a long time had law that most would call "castle doctrine".

    Code:
    198.5. Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    Streetbikerr6 wrote:
    Some of the steroided out guys where I live increase their chances greatly of picking a fight while drinking alcohol....
    ... and even some of the not "steroided out" guys.

    The reason I carry at bars is the same reason I carry when I go to the bank or to the grocery store. Self defense.

    I've been to many, many bars. I know many people who frequent bars. There's almost always going to be someone there looking for trouble. Some of them will bring weapons, or just bring enough friends that they can stomp you to the curb.

    Does my decision to have a drink at a bar mean I have to give up my right to life?

    I carry at bars because I don't want to die in the parking lot at the local bar & grill.

    Ok so I fail to see your opinion in this situation? Gun + alcohol = bad or good?

    Of course you should always be able to carry and protect yourself, no one is disputing that. Though if you are intoxicated by a great amount, it does increasesome peoples chancesof being confrontational and aggressive. Should they be allowed to carry guns? The law says no. What do you say? Because I did not catch it in your post.


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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    Streetbikerr6 wrote:
    ...

    Sometimes (edit: I wish)I lived in Texas, someone walks in my house I dont know I am allowed to shoot him dead if I feel necessary without any fear that a court will throw my ass in jail. Here in Kali you have to explain why you felt it was necessary to shoot the man coming at you with a knife in the dark when you could have ran out your back door instead, and you will still most likely be thrown in prison.
    Actually... CA has for a long time had law that most would call "castle doctrine".

    Code:
    198.5. Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.
    A man walks in your house with a knife. Your near the kitchen about 20 yards awaywith a patio door 2 feet next to you wide open for you to run out of, instead you shoot the man dead. Your going to be charged in California. In Texas, different story.

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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    Streetbikerr6 wrote:
    ...

    Sometimes (edit: I wish)I lived in Texas, someone walks in my house I dont know I am allowed to shoot him dead if I feel necessary without any fear that a court will throw my ass in jail. Here in Kali you have to explain why you felt it was necessary to shoot the man coming at you with a knife in the dark when you could have ran out your back door instead, and you will still most likely be thrown in prison.
    Actually... CA has for a long time had law that most would call "castle doctrine".

    Code:
    198.5. Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.
    The NRA does not recognize CA as one holding a castle doctirine

    http://www.nraila.org/images/cd.jpg



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    Streetbikerr6 wrote:
    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    Streetbikerr6 wrote:
    ...

    Sometimes (edit: I wish)I lived in Texas, someone walks in my house I dont know I am allowed to shoot him dead if I feel necessary without any fear that a court will throw my ass in jail. Here in Kali you have to explain why you felt it was necessary to shoot the man coming at you with a knife in the dark when you could have ran out your back door instead, and you will still most likely be thrown in prison.
    Actually... CA has for a long time had law that most would call "castle doctrine".

    Code:
    198.5. Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.
    A man walks in your house with a knife. Your near the kitchen about 20 yards awaywith a patio door 2 feet next to you wide open for you to run out of, instead you shoot the man dead. Your going to be charged in California. In Texas, different story.
    I would suspect that whether you are in kalifornicate or texass if you pull out your gun and shoot the guy you are going to lose a lot of sleep over the next few days at least. As for the police looking over the scene, slapping you on the back and saying "good shoot" only happens on TV, in jokes and on Internet gun boards. In real life there is going to be a real investigation with real lawyers, prosecutors and policemen. Hopefully you will then hear those words that they have decided that it was a justified shoot and you will not be charged.

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