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Thread: LEO frisking me at a traffic stop after I handed over my carry gun...

  1. #1
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    I hadn't thought much of this until now. There were two incidents in my past that I want to ask you all about...

    1) I was pulled over for speeding on my motorcycle. I had a backpack and was not carrying a gun. The officer asked if I was carrying any weapons. Since I was not carrying a gun, I answered "no". However, he had spotted a small pocket knife (which I did not consider to be a weapon). He considered that to be a lie, so he had me turn around and frisked me.

    I consider that to be a reasonable search. Of course, he found nothing else of any concern. He let me go for my cooperation and good attitude.

    2) I was pulled over for speeding on my motorcycle and I had a passenger. This time I WAS carrying. I had my CCW carried IWB, a small pocket knife in my front pocket, and OC (pepper spray) in my jacket pocket. I did not announce to the officer that I had a gun; he asked. When he asked, I told him where it was and that I had my CPL. I gave him my CPL and then he had me get off the bike so he could retrieve the gun. He asked if I had any other weapons. I told him and allowed him to get my pocket knife and OC from my pockets. After that, he had me turn around so that he could frisk me. I started to wonder... If I had told him that I was NOT carrying anything, would he have thought I was lying and frisked me?!?! By frisking me, he is essentially trying to catch me for lying to him (I wasn't lying and he found nothing else).

    After that, he asked me "is she carrying any weapons?", referencing my passenger. I told him "not that I know of, but you will have to ask her to be sure". She said that she was carrying nothing. After returning to the bike, and issuing me a ticket, he lectured me on what to do at a traffic stop when carrying. He told me that I should announce to the cop that I am carrying. I stated that it is not required by law. He got a bit irritated and said that he knows it's not a law to declare the firearm, but cops like it, so I should do that. He also asked me in a condescending tone "why are you carrying all this stuff?". I wanted to respond "for the same reason YOU are carrying all this stuff"; I kept cool and simply replied "for self defense", even though my knife is not a defensive weapon. The cop was a jerk to me. I am not even detailing the crap he was trying to cite me for, to keep this short.

    My question: After I had declared and allowed the officer to safely retrieve my weapons, do I still retain my 4th amendment right to be free from "unreasonable" searches (frisking)? Or, did the officer have a reason to frisk me simply because I had been carrying a gun and other items on me??
    IBTL

  2. #2
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    ShooterMcGavin wrote:
    I hadn't thought much of this until now. There were two incidents in my past that I want to ask you all about...

    1) I was pulled over for speeding on my motorcycle. I had a backpack and was not carrying a gun. The officer asked if I was carrying any weapons. Since I was not carrying a gun, I answered "no". However, he had spotted a small pocket knife (which I did not consider to be a weapon). He considered that to be a lie, so he had me turn around and frisked me.

    I consider that to be a reasonable search. Of course, he found nothing else of any concern. He let me go for my cooperation and good attitude.

    2) I was pulled over for speeding on my motorcycle and I had a passenger. This time I WAS carrying. I had my CCW carried IWB, a small pocket knife in my front pocket, and OC (pepper spray) in my jacket pocket. I did not announce to the officer that I had a gun; he asked. When he asked, I told him where it was and that I had my CPL. I gave him my CPL and then he had me get off the bike so he could retrieve the gun. He asked if I had any other weapons. I told him and allowed him to get my pocket knife and OC from my pockets. After that, he had me turn around so that he could frisk me. I started to wonder... If I had told him that I was NOT carrying anything, would he have thought I was lying and frisked me?!?! By frisking me, he is essentially trying to catch me for lying to him (I wasn't lying and he found nothing else).

    After that, he asked me "is she carrying any weapons?", referencing my passenger. I told him "not that I know of, but you will have to ask her to be sure". She said that she was carrying nothing. After returning to the bike, and issuing me a ticket, he lectured me on what to do at a traffic stop when carrying. He told me that I should announce to the cop that I am carrying. I stated that it is not required by law. He got a bit irritated and said that he knows it's not a law to declare the firearm, but cops like it, so I should do that. He also asked me in a condescending tone "why are you carrying all this stuff?". I wanted to respond "for the same reason YOU are carrying all this stuff"; I kept cool and simply replied "for self defense", even though my knife is not a defensive weapon. The cop was a jerk to me. I am not even detailing the crap he was trying to cite me for, to keep this short.

    My question: After I had declared and allowed the officer to safely retrieve my weapons, do I still retain my 4th amendment right to be free from "unreasonable" searches (frisking)? Or, did the officer have a reason to frisk me simply because I had been carrying a gun and other items on me??
    The Supreme Court Ruled that for a lawful stop the officer can pat you down for weapons. They can not go into your pockets, unless they feel something that may be a weapon (or other illegal stuff..drugs).

    If the Officer stopped you lawfully there isn't much you can do about it. If he starts going through your pockets or bags for no reason and without your permission then he is in violation.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  3. #3
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    Venator wrote:
    ShooterMcGavin wrote:
    I hadn't thought much of this until now. There were two incidents in my past that I want to ask you all about...

    1) I was pulled over for speeding on my motorcycle. I had a backpack and was not carrying a gun. The officer asked if I was carrying any weapons. Since I was not carrying a gun, I answered "no". However, he had spotted a small pocket knife (which I did not consider to be a weapon). He considered that to be a lie, so he had me turn around and frisked me.

    I consider that to be a reasonable search. Of course, he found nothing else of any concern. He let me go for my cooperation and good attitude.

    2) I was pulled over for speeding on my motorcycle and I had a passenger. This time I WAS carrying. I had my CCW carried IWB, a small pocket knife in my front pocket, and OC (pepper spray) in my jacket pocket. I did not announce to the officer that I had a gun; he asked. When he asked, I told him where it was and that I had my CPL. I gave him my CPL and then he had me get off the bike so he could retrieve the gun. He asked if I had any other weapons. I told him and allowed him to get my pocket knife and OC from my pockets. After that, he had me turn around so that he could frisk me. I started to wonder... If I had told him that I was NOT carrying anything, would he have thought I was lying and frisked me?!?! By frisking me, he is essentially trying to catch me for lying to him (I wasn't lying and he found nothing else).

    After that, he asked me "is she carrying any weapons?", referencing my passenger. I told him "not that I know of, but you will have to ask her to be sure". She said that she was carrying nothing. After returning to the bike, and issuing me a ticket, he lectured me on what to do at a traffic stop when carrying. He told me that I should announce to the cop that I am carrying. I stated that it is not required by law. He got a bit irritated and said that he knows it's not a law to declare the firearm, but cops like it, so I should do that. He also asked me in a condescending tone "why are you carrying all this stuff?". I wanted to respond "for the same reason YOU are carrying all this stuff"; I kept cool and simply replied "for self defense", even though my knife is not a defensive weapon. The cop was a jerk to me. I am not even detailing the crap he was trying to cite me for, to keep this short.

    My question: After I had declared and allowed the officer to safely retrieve my weapons, do I still retain my 4th amendment right to be free from "unreasonable" searches (frisking)? Or, did the officer have a reason to frisk me simply because I had been carrying a gun and other items on me??
    The Supreme Court Ruled that for a lawful stop the officer can pat you down for weapons. They can not go into your pockets, unless they feel something that may be a weapon (or other illegal stuff..drugs).

    If the Officer stopped you lawfully there isn't much you can do about it. If he starts going through your pockets or bags for no reason and without your permission then he is in violation.
    Wrong. They can do a cursory search IF they have reason to believe that you are presently armed and dangerous. Since the Officer in the OP had already removed the weapons there is no legal basis for a cursory search because he was no longer armed and the Officer had no reason to believe he was.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  4. #4
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    Not speeding so much might also help your situation.

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    Venator wrote:
    They can not go into your pockets, unless they feel something that may be a weapon (or other illegal stuff..drugs).

    READ THIS:

    http://www.mrsc.org/mc/supreme/curre.../809411MAJ.htm

    The state Supreme Court says a police frisk was illegal because the officer squeezed a suspect's pocket to find drugs.

    The court's unanimous decision today reverses a Court of Appeals ruling, and dismisses the 2006 drug possession conviction of Anthony Gaylord Garvin.

    Garvin was pulled over in 2005 by Union Gap police officer Gregory Cobb, for having burned-out brake lights and a broken windshield. Cobb saw a knife in the car, and during a search, he patted Garvin down.

    The officer squeezed the contents of Garvin's pocket from the outside, despite not finding another weapon there, and found some methamphetamine. But the state Supreme Court says that exceeded the scope of a lawful frisk, under case law from the U.S. Supreme Court.

    XD

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    heresolong wrote:
    Not speeding so much might also help your situation.
    Do I need to mention that the first experience was in 2007 and the second was in 2009? It's not like I'm getting pulled over every week. Thanks for the great advice (/sarcasm).
    IBTL

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    wrong joe.

    just because you supposably gave him all your weapons. you have proven you were armed and gor his safety he can make sure you have no other weapons on your person.

    -------------

    you'd end up in a ditch with that mentality. turn your back and oh look you didnt search me I have a 9mm in my coat and bang your carried by 6.

    its officer safety and was justified

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    Venator, JoeRoket

    Cites please for the statementsof law.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Well I'm pretty sure a cop can do just about anything with "officer safety" but during a traffic stop you can still use your fifth amendment to avoid admitting anything to the police.

  10. #10
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    joeroket wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    ShooterMcGavin wrote:
    I hadn't thought much of this until now. There were two incidents in my past that I want to ask you all about...

    1) I was pulled over for speeding on my motorcycle. I had a backpack and was not carrying a gun. The officer asked if I was carrying any weapons. Since I was not carrying a gun, I answered "no". However, he had spotted a small pocket knife (which I did not consider to be a weapon). He considered that to be a lie, so he had me turn around and frisked me.

    I consider that to be a reasonable search. Of course, he found nothing else of any concern. He let me go for my cooperation and good attitude.

    2) I was pulled over for speeding on my motorcycle and I had a passenger. This time I WAS carrying. I had my CCW carried IWB, a small pocket knife in my front pocket, and OC (pepper spray) in my jacket pocket. I did not announce to the officer that I had a gun; he asked. When he asked, I told him where it was and that I had my CPL. I gave him my CPL and then he had me get off the bike so he could retrieve the gun. He asked if I had any other weapons. I told him and allowed him to get my pocket knife and OC from my pockets. After that, he had me turn around so that he could frisk me. I started to wonder... If I had told him that I was NOT carrying anything, would he have thought I was lying and frisked me?!?! By frisking me, he is essentially trying to catch me for lying to him (I wasn't lying and he found nothing else).

    After that, he asked me "is she carrying any weapons?", referencing my passenger. I told him "not that I know of, but you will have to ask her to be sure". She said that she was carrying nothing. After returning to the bike, and issuing me a ticket, he lectured me on what to do at a traffic stop when carrying. He told me that I should announce to the cop that I am carrying. I stated that it is not required by law. He got a bit irritated and said that he knows it's not a law to declare the firearm, but cops like it, so I should do that. He also asked me in a condescending tone "why are you carrying all this stuff?". I wanted to respond "for the same reason YOU are carrying all this stuff"; I kept cool and simply replied "for self defense", even though my knife is not a defensive weapon. The cop was a jerk to me. I am not even detailing the crap he was trying to cite me for, to keep this short.

    My question: After I had declared and allowed the officer to safely retrieve my weapons, do I still retain my 4th amendment right to be free from "unreasonable" searches (frisking)? Or, did the officer have a reason to frisk me simply because I had been carrying a gun and other items on me??
    The Supreme Court Ruled that for a lawful stop the officer can pat you down for weapons. They can not go into your pockets, unless they feel something that may be a weapon (or other illegal stuff..drugs).

    If the Officer stopped you lawfully there isn't much you can do about it. If he starts going through your pockets or bags for no reason and without your permission then he is in violation.
    Wrong. They can do a cursory search IF they have reason to believe that you are presently armed and dangerous. Since the Officer in the OP had already removed the weapons there is no legal basis for a cursory search because he was no longer armed and the Officer had no reason to believe he was.
    DO some research on the subject.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  11. #11
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    Citizen wrote:
    Venator, JoeRoket

    Cites please for the statementsof law.
    Slide 6.

    Then can do a frisk if the stop is lawful. If it's a consensual stop they can't frisk you without permission.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  12. #12
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    heresolong wrote:
    Not speeding so much might also help your situation.
    That the right Idea!Cut through the Sea Lawyer stuff and remind how to avoid the unavoidable.

    Not saying I don't apply extra pressure to the peddle from time to time.
    Iím proudly straight. I'm free to not support Legalization, GLBT, Illegal Aliens, or the Islamization of America.

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    Venator wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Venator, JoeRoket

    Cites please for the statements¬*of law.¬*
    Slide 6.¬*

    Then can do a frisk if the stop is lawful.¬* If it's a consensual stop they can't frisk you without permission.
    To bad slide six is missing some info. Besides I do not see that as anything other than what some guy sat down at a PC and threw together. Not exactly a legal cite.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  14. #14
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    Citizen wrote:
    Venator, JoeRoket

    Cites please for the statements¬*of law.¬*
    It is a Terry Stop. The person has to meet two aspects. They must be presently armed as well as dangerous. Voluntarily handing over your weapons excludes you from being presently armed. Just because you are armed does not mean that you are dangerous.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  15. #15
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    Nothing about drugs in slide 6:

    "Frisk" is a limited protective search for concealed weapons or dangerous instruments.

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