Old Town section of GW Parkway (Washington St.)

Wangmuf · Oct 7, 2009

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Since the GW Parkway is US park property, how do I go about carrying a handgun in the lower part of Old Town Alexandria, as it is physically impossible to get there without crossing the parkway? Is that section, where it is Washington St., owned by the city?

Do I need to disarm, unload, cross the street, then have a friend THROW my S&W across the street?

What happens if a TSA agent sees this, would it be a violation for having an air-born handgun? :shock:

I can't recall ever seeing Park Police actually on that section of the road, but I know I've seen them posted up on either end of Old Town on several occasions, which is why the thought that it might be city land popped into my head.

Citizen · Oct 7, 2009

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I don't have any information that Washington St. is federal property.

Maybe time to call the Park Service and find out exactly what they claim as their property.

mpg9999 · Oct 7, 2009

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Wangmuf wrote:

Since the GW Parkway is US park property, how do I go about carrying a handgun in the lower part of Old Town Alexandria, as it is physically impossible to get there without crossing the parkway? Is that section, where it is Washington St., owned by the city?

Do I need to disarm, unload, cross the street, then have a friend THROW my S&W across the street? What happens if a TSA agent sees this, would it be a violation for having an air-born handgun? :shock:

I can't recall ever seeing Park Police actually on that section of the road, but I know I've seen them posted up on either end of Old Town on several occasions, which is why the thought that it might be city land popped into my head.

I've asked this before, and was linked to this site, with NPS property in Green: http://www.nps.gov/PWR/customcf/app...p&parkname=George Washington Memorial Parkway

Citizen · Oct 7, 2009

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mpg9999 wrote:

SNIP I've asked this before, and was linked to this site, with NPS property in Green: http://www.nps.gov/PWR/customcf/apps/maps/showmap.cfm?alphacode=gwmp&parkname=George%20Washington%20Memorial%20Parkway

I wonder about that map. Its a little simplistic; making it hard to tell for sure. The southern "re-start" seems to be the south bank of Hunting Creek. I can't figure out where the north end is, though.

I have anold and a new ADC map open in front of me. These maps agree with the park map viewer--south bank of Hunting Creek is where the park property begins.

With regard to the north end, on my maps, the park property starts where east and west Abingdon Dr. splits off Washington St. The newer map is a little clearer because it puts the word "George" right at the beginning of the green-shaded area denoting a park, right where Abingdon Dr. splits off.

Oh, I see what the map viewer is trying to show! Its showing the park property stops at Slaters Lane. Yet both my ADC maps show park property continuing a bit further south to where Abingdon splits off Washington St.

Regarding the discrepancy between the map viewer and the ADC map, I think I would trust the ADC map until I saw something solid otherwise.

Mt Vernon .40 · Oct 8, 2009

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Washington Street in Old Town is not Federal land.

Federal Park Land at the nothern end of the Alexandria bike path begins somewhat to the north of Slater's lane.

It's roughly depicted as the green/white crosshatched area in this Alexandria City Zoning Map

The same dividing line is also depicted by this Alexandria City Tax Map for that area. (Actual "federal property" is named here on next tax map to north)

The Parkway "strip" extending further south to the "Abington Split" (in the vicinity of 1st & 2nd Streets) is Public Open Space (POS) but it does not appear to be federal land.

The southern end of Old Town is a little "fuzzier" but most maps seem to depict Alexandria "ending" (and therefore Federal park land beginning) at the northern shore of Cameron Run. (The bridge over Cameron run is also of the same design and construction as the other GW Parkway bridges; making it appear to be Federal "land")

Alexandria's GIS site has many other maps available for viewing here.
Of course, the major Federal parkland restrictions end in a few more months. :celebrate

MSC 45ACP · Oct 8, 2009

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What a BIG crock of POO this whole thing is! Why can't they just kick DC off the West (South) side of the Potomac River? That would make life SO much more simple!!!

They shouldn't have ANY business on OUR side of the river... NONE, whatsoever!:cuss::cuss::cuss::cuss:

Mt Vernon .40 · Oct 8, 2009

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MSC 45ACP wrote:

... Why can't they just kick DC off the West (South) side of the Potomac River? ...

???

All of this land under discussion is clearly in VA.

Any firearm restrictions are due to the National Park Service jurisdiction of the GW Parkway and adjoining federal park lands.

Now, as to why Columbia Island is part of DC ... and didn't revert to VA in 1846 remains a bit strange to me.

I guess it all goes back to the original VA-MD(DC) state line "location" dating from 1634.

MSC 45ACP · Oct 8, 2009

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Columbia Island is what I was "talking" about. DC shouldn't "own" any land on "our" side of the river...:X

Mt Vernon .40 · Oct 8, 2009

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I agree it seems quite odd ...

... but it would appear that Columbia Island must have originally been part of Maryland due to Lord Calvert's land grant boundary being drawn along the VA shoreline back in the 1600s. (courtesy of Charles I)

When what is now Arlington County was retroceded back to VA in 1846, it apparently only included those lands which were originally part of VA.

The same rule must have applied to what is now Roosevelt Island as the main channel of the Potomac is clearly to the north of the island. (Island is part of DC although it's only accessible by bridge from VA)

SlackwareRobert · Oct 8, 2009

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How would DC arrest you? Extradition fight to get you into DC.
With the Law and order white house they don't stand a chance.:cuss:
Carry a cross so they can't approach you.
Ironic the defense for vampires works on government officials also.

In what condition is Roosevelt island these days? Last time up that way it
was a dump. (Thank you Bill)
But you can get on it if you drop over the bridge railing and take the back
nature trail. Only about an 8 foot drop. The island does go up to the DC
edge of it. Unless Al Gore warming raised the tide and shrunk the back trail.:lol:

You could always get a fanny pack, and use the federal transport laws to cross
the road. Just lock the 'trunk' up till you get there.
Why did the man cross the road? To OC on the other side.:celebrate:celebrate

swinokur · Oct 8, 2009

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MSC 45ACP wrote:

Columbia Island is what I was "talking" about. DC shouldn't "own" any land on "our" side of the river...:X

You are correct except that the official DC/VA line is the high water mark of the Pentagon Lagoon, next to Rt 110 at the Pentagon. The lagoon is in DC because of the high water mark demarcation between DC and VA., and Columbia Island is north of that, putting it in DC. Even after the National; Park carry is approved for VA, driving down the GW Parkway presents a huge hazard, because as soon as you cross over either the north or south inlet to the Lagoon, you are in DC and you cannot carry in any way shape or form in DC. Stupid but true.

Mt Vernon .40 · Oct 8, 2009

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swinokur wrote:

... Stupid but true ...

I wouldn't quite call it "stupid" ... although it's definitely unusual.

After all, the boundaries were established back in 1630 and have stood the test of time (and the courts) to this day.

If anyone's to blame; it was Lord Calvert, who--in cahoots w/ Charles I -- made this "river grab" from 15th century "Virginia."

Besides, if it wasn't for the GW Parkway, we wouldn't think any more of it that we do of Roosevelt Island also belonging to DC.

I wonder ...after the new Park Service regs go into effect, will the U.S. Park Police (who routinely patrol the parkway and enforce speed limits w/ radar) be bound to enforce the DC firearms regulations on Columbia Island???

swinokur · Oct 8, 2009

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Mt Vernon .40 wrote:

swinokur wrote:

... Stupid but true ...

Click to expand...

I wouldn't quite call it "stupid" ... although it's definitely unusual.

After all, the boundaries were established back in 1630 and have stood the test of time (and the courts) to this day.

If anyone's to blame; it was Lord Calvert, who--in cahoots w/ Charles I -- made this "river grab" from 15th century "Virginia."

Besides, if it wasn't for the GW Parkway, we wouldn't think any more of it that we do of Roosevelt Island also belonging to DC.

Let me rephrase what I said. What I meant to say was that the hodge podge of gun laws that exists today are stupid because it can cause an otherwise law abiding citizen who is a future (Feb2010) OC'er or CC'er who simply traverses the Pentagon Lagoon inlet to become a potential felon because of DC's restrictive gun laws. I did not intend to imply that the land acquisitions or boundaries were stupid. Apologies to Lord Calvert or Charles I.

Mt Vernon .40 · Oct 8, 2009

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LOL !

No feathers ruffled. Believe me, I have no affections for our neighboring "Peoples Republic of MD" or the fact that I can't currently legally drive the GW parkway while carrying even though it's by far the best route to get to my residence.

I'll repost my add-on below for continuity ...

I wonder ...after the new Park Service regs go into effect, will the U.S. Park Police (who routinely patrol the parkway and enforce speed limits w/ radar) be bound to enforce the DC firearms regulations on Columbia Island???

Wangmuf · Oct 8, 2009

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Mt Vernon .40 wrote:

Washington Street in Old Town is not Federal land.

Federal Park Land at the nothern end of the Alexandria bike path begins somewhat to the north of Slater's lane.

It's roughly depicted as the green/white crosshatched area in this Alexandria City Zoning Map

The same dividing line is also depicted by this Alexandria City Tax Map for that area. (Actual "federal property" is named here on next tax map to north)

The Parkway "strip" extending further south to the "Abington Split" (in the vicinity of 1st & 2nd Streets) is Public Open Space (POS) but it does not appear to be federal land.

The southern end of Old Town is a little "fuzzier" but most maps seem to depict Alexandria "ending" (and therefore Federal park land beginning) at the northern shore of Cameron Run. (The bridge over Cameron run is also of the same design and construction as the other GW Parkway bridges; making it appear to be Federal "land")

Alexandria's GIS site has many other maps available for viewing here.
Of course, the major Federal parkland restrictions end in a few more months. :celebrate

The green/white area on the zoning map, I can't figure out how to correspond them to the tax maps at all. All I see on the tax maps are a few boundary lines, a few street names (with no streets displayed), and GW parkway, withought the parkway displayed. It's very confusing to me

.

But as for my original question, it looks to be answered that I shouldn't be arrested for walking or riding my motorcycle across Washington St. simply for OCing. It looks like I should stay away from the shore unless there's a city park sign up, though. Thank you for providing links to those maps.

Mt Vernon .40 · Oct 8, 2009

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Wangmuf wrote:

It looks like I should stay away from the shore

There's absolutely no need to!

You only need to stay away from those specific areas cited in VA (or federal) law.

Tax maps only show a tiny portion of the area. They generally require a bit of 'local knowledge" to piece them together.

swinokur · Oct 8, 2009

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Mt Vernon .40 wrote:

I'll repost my add-on below for continuity ...

I wonder ...after the new Park Service regs go into effect, will the U.S. Park Police (who routinely patrol the parkway and enforce speed limits w/ radar) be bound to enforce the DC firearms regulations on Columbia Island???

I have no idea but I can assure you I will not be the test case. My guess is the USPP will have to enforce the law as it's written which says the NPS rule is the law of the jurisdiction the National Park is in. It's clearly in DC so I can only assume DC law will apply and the USPP will have to enforce the law. As I said, the whole VA/DC rule thing is ridiculous.

I don't go down the Parkway while carrying and will not take the chance even after next february. Not worth the chance of losing my CHP by having a felony on my record. I expect the FOPA interstate travel rule to apply so I simply plan on unloading and locking my pistol up as I travel across Columbia Island. and rearming after back in VA. Ridiculous? yes. Am I going to do that? Absolutely

Wangmuf · Oct 8, 2009

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Mt Vernon .40 wrote:

Wangmuf wrote:

It looks like I should stay away from the shore

Click to expand...

There's absolutely no need to!

You only need to stay away from those specific areas cited in VA (or federal) law.

Tax maps only show a tiny portion of the area. They generally require a bit of 'local knowledge" to piece them together.

So the green/white crosshatched section that is labeled "WPR - Waterfront Park and Recreation" is city property? It looks like it's all of the shore section on either side of King Street.

Mt Vernon .40 · Oct 9, 2009

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Sorry for the confusion.

"WPR" is the Alexandria zoning designation for "Waterfront Parks & Recreation."

"POS" is "Public Open Space"

Unfortunately, those zoning designations don't differentiate between city and federal ownership.

Your concern about avoiding federal jurisdiction of the GW Parkway Parkland is well-founded ... but the Federal GW Parkway is only north of town (essentially north of the power plant at Slater's Lane) and south of Cameron Run.

Everything in-between is "Alexandria City" and subject the the firearm laws applicable to the the rest of Virginia.

See http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm for VA laws, and simply stay off any other federal properly which might be scattered about (e.g. post offices, federal courthouse, etc).

Mt Vernon .40 · Oct 9, 2009

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... I can assure you I will not be the test case [for felony charges] ...

Nor will I. :?

Old Town section of GW Parkway (Washington St.)

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