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Thread: Private police Dept????

  1. #1
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    I got this in an email this morning.


    City of Hardin Montana & surrounding area is now becoming a police state

    Things are moving so quickly and we are out of time! The spirit of Pharaoh has entered our land! We have found out that our little town of Hardin, Montana is the 'test town' for President Obama’s new law to privatize the police force of local communities. Last night, the city council voted to disband our sheriff’s department and to bring in a private security company to police the town.

    Interestingly, earlier in the day, the mayor when asked in an interview about the privatization of our police department completely denied it and said that would not be done with out a council meeting. Then that evening, a council meeting was held in regards to that very thing. At the beginning of this month, our local prison signed an agreement with the American Police Force which is a subsidiary of a larger private security force that the U.S. used in the Iraq war and Hurricane Katrina.

    Yesterday, a convoy of twelve 'blacked out' Mercedes Benz SUV’s were brought into town. They were already painted with Hardin’s colors and ‘Hardin Police Force’ was already painted on them! Hardin’s sheriff’s department will no longer be in operation after the month of October. During October, the Sheriff’s Department is to train this new security force in all the logistics of running the town of Hardin. If you go on the American Police Force site, you might notice that the logo they use is actually a Russian logo. I have been told that the man who came with this new security force as the captain, has a thick Russian accent.

    Earlier this month, in an interview in regards to this Hardin prison and the training center that they are planning to build, we were told that seventy five percent of the security officers that were to be trained would be ‘international’.

    This private security force is already patrolling the town. They had several people stopped yesterday. Also, it appears that they are building some type of heavy duty gate at the entrances of our town.

    In an interview, the American Police Force security has stated that they will stay here one month to assess the population and then they will make their permanent base here. They said they are scouting out thirty towns in the U.S. but that Hardin is the first. Also, President Obama has authorized and signed a bill for full government funding of the privatization of the police departments throughout the U.S. By the end of October, it is their plan to have all major cities locked down!

    In an interview with one of the city council members, he stated that this new H1N1 shot which has not been tested will be mandatory and if a resident of our town refuses, they will be taken to our prison where they will be quarantined. A federal law has been passed that makes it mandatory that all health care workers have to take this new shot. If they do not, they will automatically loose their jobs.

    The new federal law that is in place makes gives you four choices in regards to this new shot. One, you can voluntarily take it or you can refuse and be taken to a place to be quarantined, or as an alternative; if you refuse, you can have a chip placed in you to track you or a tracking bracelet which cannot be taken off. The state borders will be manned and locked down in the near future in regards to this mandatory shot.

    I am also told by a reliable source that today one of the managers at a local business in Hardin was visited by this new private security force which is now the new Hardin Police Department. He is an avid hunter and they came to inform him that they had a list of all fire arms that he owned; this includes all the residents of our town, and that he would need to take his guns down to have them put a marking device on them.
    Also, today, one of the main streets in Hardin was completely blocked off and they have been setting up information booths where they are passing out pamphlets with information on this new H1N1 shot.

    Intercessors, I am not making up any of this information! You can go on the internet and verify most of this information from KULR 8, MSNBC or Fox news. Things have changed so quickly in the last 24 hours! Things are not and will never be the same. We are indeed going into the prophesied 'four years of captivity for America'. I believe we are about to enter into a time of persecution that the Church in America has never known! We must prepare! The good news is that this is also the time when the Glory of God will manifest itself in a way we have never known!

    In His Service,


    Government databases show no record of American Police Force

    Questions swirling around jail dealSEE HERE:
    http://www.billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/montana/article_4079a856-a017-11de-994f-001cc4c002e0.html



    Call and Ask Where Private Firms can Suspend Constitutional and State Rights

    Governor Brian D. Schweitzer
    Office of the Governor
    Montana State Capitol Bldg.
    P.O. Box 200801
    Helena MT 59620-0801
    (406) 444-3111, FAX (406) 444-5529

    Lieutenant Governor John Bohlinger
    Office of the Lt. Governor
    Montana State Capitol Bldg.
    PO Box 200801
    Helena, MT 59620-1901
    (406) 444-3111, FAX (406) 444-4648

    Sen. Max Baucus
    (202) 224-4700

    Sen. John Tester
    (202) 24-8594

    [line]
    To make this OC related my friend OC'd in MT on his cross country Motorcycle ride this summer.
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    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    BS
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    I hope nobody believes this... use google. Yes, the American Police Force had a presence in Harden. They had contracted with the police department to use their facility. That's it. There are no facts to substantiate the rest of the letter which is 95% horse-hockey .

    There is no doubt that overbearing police and government-hired private security is a problem. Spreading thispiece of what is clearly misinformation isn't helping rectify the issue.

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    Interesting timing with the post, I just happened to see this a few minutes ago, it's the main story on Foxnews.com right now:

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,562600,00.html

    When two brand new, shiny black Mercedes SUVs bearing a "Hardin Police Department" logo drove through the main thoroughfare of Hardin, Mont., last week, people took notice.


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    Uhhh... Hardin has no policedepartment orfacility for them to use.
    Chuck Norris/Ted Nugent That's the ticket for 2016!

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    Regular Member LeMat's Avatar
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    Well, crap............... I wasn't going to post anything else on this since the others got locked, but this is an article in our daily paper:

    http://www.dailyinterlake.com/opinio...cc4c002e0.html

    As far as I know, they've essentially been run outta town.





    On a side note, I open carried when taking the trash out tonight and didn't have to shoot anything.
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    Regular Member MT GUNNY's Avatar
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    Glen Beck is all over this! we will get answers when he gets the info. As it stands Now, (AmericanPoliceForce who have changed there name)are not in control of Hardin the Two sheriff officers that are there are.

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    Things are moving so quickly and we are out of time! The spirit of Pharaoh has entered our land! We have found out that our little town of Hardin, Montana is the 'test town' for President Obama’s new law to privatize the police force of local communities. Last night, the city council voted to disband our sheriff’s department and to bring in a private security company to police the town.


    This is a line of bull crap!

    City councils in the state of Montana have no say so over the County Sheriff's Dept. There is only one county that appoints the Sheriff here in Montana and that is in Petroleum County.

    This original post smells of BS.




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    Company run by ex-Con drops Montana jail plan

    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...10-09-20-35-24



    :celebrate

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Forget the private cops. Everyone's ignoring the truly scary stuff.

    You want to know what's really destroying this country? It's all right there in the article:

    The project has been dogged by a series of damaging revelations about the company, American Police Force, ever since officials in the rural town of Hardin announced with great fanfare last month that they had secured a $2.6 million deal to fill the jail.
    ...[the] economic development agency, which owns the 464-bed jail.
    The jail has been vacant since its completion two years ago. After looking for prisoners from Vermont to Alaska, officials were so desperate to fill it with inmates that they floated the idea that it could hold terrorists from Guantanamo Bay.
    A country which builds empty jails for reasons other than crime, and then has to go looking for inmates to fill them as a means of "helping the local economy" has become a very dark thing indeed.

    Sometimes I weep at night when I think of the tragedy that has befallen the formerly "land of the free".

  11. #11
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    Hardin, Montana, Puts Jail Deal With APPF On Ice
    http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmem...ice.php?ref=mp


    APPF Backs Out Of Hardin Jail Deal
    http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmem...eal.php?ref=tn

    The end has come...
    Controversial private security contractor American Private Police Fore has officially backed out of a deal with Hardin, Montana, to run a local prison, APPF spokeswoman Beck Shay announced this afternoon. (Watch Shay's press conference here.)


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    marshaul wrote:
    Forget the private cops. Everyone's ignoring the truly scary stuff.

    You want to know what's really destroying this country? It's all right there in the article:

    The project has been dogged by a series of damaging revelations about the company, American Police Force, ever since officials in the rural town of Hardin announced with great fanfare last month that they had secured a $2.6 million deal to fill the jail.
    ...[the] economic development agency, which owns the 464-bed jail.
    The jail has been vacant since its completion two years ago. After looking for prisoners from Vermont to Alaska, officials were so desperate to fill it with inmates that they floated the idea that it could hold terrorists from Guantanamo Bay.
    A country which builds empty jails for reasons other than crime, and then has to go looking for inmates to fill them as a means of "helping the local economy" has become a very dark thing indeed.

    Sometimes I weep at night when I think of the tragedy that has befallen the formerly "land of the free".
    The part you don't understand is that the State of Montana has but one state prison, and one other private prison was built in Shelby, Mt. More prisons need to be built here, and so private prisons is the answer so the people are not taxed to death beyond belief in paying for another state prison.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Oh, so you're using taxes stolen from other communities to bolster your own economy?

    You're not going to curry favor with me using arguments like that.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Furthermore, I challenge the assumption that any state "needs" more jails.

    If the government stopped imprisoning morally innocent but legally guilty statutory offenders, we'd have significantly reduced inmate populations.

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    Isn't it funny how others will come into the thread of a different state and tell all those people what they need, what people think of them or what they should do when these individuals giving out this 'advice' can't even implement it in their own states?!
    States are always going to need jails. Criminals are always going to be out there. This isn't the fairy-tale life. Crime doesn't stop in an area because a knight in shining armor rides into town to restore sanity and civility.
    I for one, hope this prison in Hardin is opened soon. As far as whether or not it gets used to house the Gitmo detainees is kind of a two-edged sword with me. I will not quit carrying a firearm for my protection because someone thinks that less-violent criminals shouldn't be jailed. As a matter of fact, I just bought a small handgun for my girlfriend and she loves it. Her and I know all too well the horror's of un-jailed criminals and those who should be in jail but aren't due to the lazy, half-assed attitude of our judicial system.

    If you decide to come into the Montana thread, respect our state. Don't come in and insult us or tell us what we should do to make our state better when you're not even doing it in your own home. We have enough people in our state from yours who are trying to do that already.
    Plenty of us who frequent this forum are of the mindset that there aren't enough criminals in jail or in prison. The population of the state here would decrease if we could get on with executing the death-row inmates we have in the prisons in this country as it is!!
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  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    We're all in this boat together, my friend.

    The very fact that we have differing opinions is enough to encourage me to challenge yours, whatever state you may live in.

    You should relish the opportunity. A forum like this exists so that we may further our understanding using debate, not so that we are always in lockstep and back-slapping agreement.

    By the way, there is nothing in the forum rules, or practiced etiquette, to suggest that members should not participate in any subforum they please.

    Furthermore, I am not the dictator, or even the Gubernator, of California. I do not have magical powers to change the law. I vote according to my conscience, but that isn't enough. However, real change is wrought in society. And that's the point of all this discussion, isn't it?

    Finally, when the jail in question is seeking inmates from other states, it seems patently absurd to pretend this is a little issue for all you Montanans about which the rest of us have no concern. This is self-evidently an issue greater than one state, or one town.

    I'm aware that you're of the mindset that there aren't enough criminals incarcerated. That's the notion I'm attempting to challenge. Or, more precisely, I'm suggesting that the state is generally engaged in putting the wrong sort of person in jail and prison -- the results of this practice may be where you the idea that "not enough" people are in prison.

    It's not about sheer numbers, which is what your attitude and the attitude of those who build prisons like this results in. If sheer numbers were enough, we'd be doing fine with the highest incarceration rate in the world, yet not the lowest crime rate to match.

    The problem is, as I alluded to above, wasting taxpayer money imprisoning nonaggressive (I never said that only "violence" per se constituted morally criminal behavior) offenders. However much you may believe otherwise, drug users are not compelled to commit violence due to drug use, so you can imprison every one of them and you're still going to have the actually aggressive muggers and the like roaming free, since you cannot predict criminal behavior by drug use.

    Finally, if we did focus on only aggressive perpetrators, as the law was originally intended, there would quite simply be lower rates of incarceration (whether you like it or not); even if we managed to catch every aggressive perpetrator, simply because society is filled with folks who break laws but do not harm others, and genuine aggressors represent a relatively small quotient, the incarceration rates would still be drastically reduced.

    But what do you expect, when running prisons is a "business" for the communities who do it -- albeit a business whose profit is derived from stolen money? The motive is not to put the "right" (i.e. bad) people in jail, because there aren't enough of them and they're too hard to catch. The motive becomes putting the easy folks in jail. A possessor of a drug is an inmate just the same as a murderer, and represents the same profit potential.

    When you reduce criminal justice to a for-profit institution, that's what happens. And that's what's happening in this town.

    And that was the point of my original post. Something which no attempt was made to be understood, because you simplistically believe that "more" people in jail is somehow the solution.

    Insanity is repeating the same thing over and over, expecting different results.

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  18. #18
    Regular Member 40s-and-wfan's Avatar
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    marshaul wrote:

    The problem is, as I alluded to above, wasting taxpayer money imprisoning nonaggressive (I never said that only "violence" per se constituted morally criminal behavior) offenders. However much you may believe otherwise, drug users are not compelled to commit violence due to drug use, so you can imprison every one of them and you're still going to have the actually aggressive muggers and the like roaming free, since you cannot predict criminal behavior by drug use.
    I think it's funny how you mention that drug dealers are not compelled to commit violence due to drug use. I have spent a few years in Law Enforcement here in my corner of Montana and I know for a fact that drug dealers/users are inherently violent people. I've had my share of scuffles with those selling drugs as well as those on drugs because they don't want to comply. They have a habit of running more when you try to make contact with them for anything than law abiding citizens would do. They tend to be more violent when you do make an apprehension with them. They are more dangerous and they don't comply with reasonable requests.
    Funny how when you watch the news and hear about another drug dealer who was arrested and you find out that said individual more often than not, has some kind of a criminal record and/or violent history. They carry guns too. They shoot each other (not that that's a bad thing, gets rid of the drug dealers for us).

    I agree that you cannot predict criminal behavior by drug use, but look at the news every now and then. There's a program that has aired several times on tv that has to do with the increased marijuana sales in the United States and more specifically in Mendocino County, California. Even for what most people classify as a harmless drug with almost nonexistent chances of overdose, dealers, growers and users are all willing to do whatever it takes to protect their crops! Drugs are their 'cash cow' and they will protect it because it's lucrative!! Besides, criminals gotta start somewhere.

    Prisons are full of bad check writers, money launderers, thief's, identity thief's, ponzi-schemers and so on and so forth!! These are not violent crimes. Show me a victimless crime. Show me a criminal that committed a crime without a victim. Even though the crimes I've mentioned are non-violent, they still hurt people and they still have the potential of depriving others of their livelihood and quite possibly their means of living. These people who commit these offenses deserve to get put away too. Just because they're not violet doesn't mean they don't deserve to get put away.

    I don't believe in coddling these people. If my child does something wrong, they get about three chances depending on the severity of the offense. I discipline my children and so do most parents. Criminals do something wrong and if they tend to do it after attempts of reformation, they should get their 'time-out' as well. They're bigger so their time should be spend in jails or prisons.

    As for your original comment in the paragraph I quoted above regarding wasting tax-payer money on these prisons, don't worry about that. The prison in Hardin, Montana is a privately owned prison. The prison in Shelby, Montana is also a privately owned prison. No tax-payer money is wasted that way. If you own the prison, my money isn't being wasted. I don't know how a private company can waste tax-payer money like that.
    There are several examples of criminals from one state being housed in an institution in another state. If one state doesn't have room at their crowbar hotels, they can and sometimes do contract with other states to house the more serious offenders. This has been happening for quite some time now and won't stop just because people of this country don't want the Gitmo Detainees in South-Eastern Montana. By 'some people' I don't mean you, me or anyone on the forum specifically. I mean anyone who can't come up with a reason other than 'No, I don't want them here.'

    Things are rough for criminals of all kinds, why should we make it easier on them just because they didn't hurt someone when they committed their crime?! Maricopa County Arizona has it great. Criminals of all kinds: white-collar, blue-collar and no-collar stay in the same kind of facility. If they wrote too many bad checks or murdered someone they go to jail. I wish we could do that here but we can't. The crooks would freeze... what a tragedy (insert sarcasm here)!
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    The kind of drugs dealers you're talking about are created by prohibition.

    No offense, but your experience in LEO colors your perception.

    Did it ever occur to you that every drug dealer you encountered was a violent criminal because the job of LEOs necessarily entails dealing with violent criminals?

    Most "white-collar" drugs dealers never get busted, and so you're less likely to have interacted with them. I've known a few in my lifetime, and they weren't automatically violent people. The very fact of one's being an aggressive person means he is a million times more likely to find himself "interacting" with law enforcement.

    As I said just a post ago in another thread, here in San Francisco every drug can be had in every part of town. However, you're only going to find those drugs sold by violent, gang-style drug dealers in the parts of town where gang-like behavior and gangs themselves are common. Elsewhere, you will find that drug dealers are more likely to be college students with no violent background.

    Gangs are very real, and law enforcement must deal with them all the time. But it is the solution I propose which actually has any chance of taking gangs out of the equation.

    Here is the rest of my post in the other thread:

    For example, San Francisco has a thriving drug market. Any drug can be purchased in any part of town. However, you're only likely to find those drugs sold by gangs in parts of town where the gangs have a presence. The absence of gangs does not predict the absence of drugs, and the presence of drugs does not predict the presence of gangs.

    Sometimes I feel like a broken record going off on these tangents, but I feel these distinctions are crucial for the reestablishment of a free society.

    Edit: The money trail only goes back to Mexico in the case of... wait for it... drugs sold by gangs affiliated with the Mexican cartels. Which not all drugs are, contrary to popular belief (although gangs do possess a de facto monopoly on certain drugs, such as cocaine, which are produced only in countries where those cartels control every aspect of production).

    For example, consider the following article:

    Cartels Face an Economic Battle

    The prohibition of drug dealing throws the baby out with the bathwater, in my opinion.

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    40s-and-wfan wrote:
    I agree that you cannot predict criminal behavior by drug use, but look at the news every now and then. There's a program that has aired several times on tv that has to do with the increased marijuana sales in the United States and more specifically in Mendocino County, California. Even for what most people classify as a harmless drug with almost nonexistent chances of overdose, dealers, growers and users are all willing to do whatever it takes to protect their crops! Drugs are their 'cash cow' and they will protect it because it's lucrative!! Besides, criminals gotta start somewhere.
    You're conflating the behavior of Mexican cartel growers, who have begun to operate domestically, with mom-and-pop growers who are generally nonviolent.

    Your experience in law enforcement is countered by my experience in life. I have met and even known people who are involved in marijuana production in Mendo county. They are not "inherently" violent people, and they do not use violent tactics. If they did, I would have reported them to law enforcement myself.

  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    40s-and-wfan wrote:
    As for your original comment in the paragraph I quoted above regarding wasting tax-payer money on these prisons, don't worry about that. The prison in Hardin, Montana is a privately owned prison. The prison in Shelby, Montana is also a privately owned prison. No tax-payer money is wasted that way. If you own the prison, my money isn't being wasted. I don't know how a private company can waste tax-payer money like that.
    There are several examples of criminals from one state being housed in an institution in another state. If one state doesn't have room at their crowbar hotels, they can and sometimes do contract with other states to house the more serious offenders.
    I've heard this before. The part I have a hard time understanding is as follows:

    Please explain to me where the money comes from to fund private prisons. Prisons generally cost money, they do not make it. Do you really expect me to believe these privately owned prisons turn a profit producing license plates?

    If so, I would argue that function should still be performed by government. Overseeing criminal justice is one of the few valid functions of government. If justice can be run as a for-profit business, then why should that business not be owned by the people so that the tax burden necessary to support penal justice may be reduced?

    Edit: Gosh darn it, I just triple-posted again. Apologies all. Please see my posts at the end of the previous page.

  22. #22
    Regular Member 40s-and-wfan's Avatar
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    Well, there you have it. That shows your experience with people there versus my experience with people here! We have just the same problems here in Montana that you have in California, just on a smaller scale. I've never seen a white-collar criminal growing meth. That's a blue and/or no-collar crime for the most part. We have every drug imaginable here in Montana, just like you have there. We have every type of lifestyle here too.
    Most of the people here that deal in drugs have some kind of a history because of the crappy economy here and they do whatever they can to protect their assets. Lots of people who come into this state from another state bring the mentality of their state to ours and we don't like it. Therefore, as I'm not sure if you know, not many of us here in our fair state like Californians. We don't like the big-city attitude here in small-town, rural areas.

    By the way, not all the violent weed-growers are part of Mexican cartels, nor are they always Latinos. To be honest, I take offense to you thinking just because they grow weed, they're involved with anything to do with the whole Mexican heritage. As a Latin male in Montana, I take offense to this stereotypical attitude. That, in my attitude, actually shows your ignorance regarding Latino's as a whole! Please don't make that mistake again. I take it as racial discrimination and don't appreciate that kind of attitude!!

    We don't have any Mexican cartels up here but we have some violent weed growers nonetheless!!
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  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    I don't associate weed-growing with being Mexican. If you had read that article to which I linked, you would not have come to that incorrect conclusion.

    The reality is that, here in California, most of the violent weed-growers are the Mexican cartels. So, that reference was simply intended as an illustration, not an attempt to link violent weed production with Latino ancestry.

    I do not believe drug production causes behavior, nor do I believe ancestry causes behavior. Therefore, it is improbable that I believe that some specific combination of drug production and ancestry is any more likely to necessarily entail violence than the existence of either factor independent of the other.

    I did not even intend to imply that all *violent* weed-growers are Mexican or Latino. It's simply that the cartels are the pre-eminent example of such here in California.

    Notice I said that mom-and-pop growers were "generally" nonviolent. This usage suggests room for there being violent growers not in the "Mexican cartel" category. :P

    As for non-cartel-affiliated weed growers in Montana, if they are violent their violence gives you more than enough cause to arrest them. It doesn't change the fact that incarcerating a person *solely* for growing marijuana is a waste of taxpayer dollars, as that is no kind of guarantee that person will be violent.

    As for the overcrowded prisons, while I'm sure that you feel the majority of people you saw incarcerated were violent offenders whether or not they were actually convicted for such an offense, remember that a fair number of nonviolent offenders are convicted as well, although they occupy far less of the actual arresting officers time (and, thus, attention) due to their relative ease in being dealt with.

    Enough nonviolent offenders are imprisoned to significantly increase the tax burden. I suggest that it is a big part of our *growing* prison population.

    I maintain that, as with dealers, you come into contact with violent growers more frequently -- and they occupy more of your attention -- and as a result they are more "visible". I myself have known enough completely passive, nonviolent drug producers to be totally unconvinced in there being anything other than a statistical correlation between drug production and violence, the same way you (and I) recognize that there is nothing more than a statistical correlation between violent drug producers and Mexican cartels. In the same way that being a violent drug producer does not predict Latino heritage, being a drug producer does not predict violent behavior. Although there may be found correlations between the two things in certain circumstances.

    As for meth, it does have something of a "street drug" connotation, with good reason. However, I would point out that the doctors and pharmacists who prescribe and distribute legal methamphetamine -- the same active ingredient in "crystal meth" can be had legally in medical amphetamines -- are neither "blue-collar" not generally violent.

    The prohibition itself is what creates the correlation between violence and drug use/dealing. This itself is enough reason to advocate for its end.

    Any instance where drug producers defend their product with violence is not an indicator of a direct causal relationship between drug production and violence, it is rather an indication of a causal relationship between prohibition and the propagation of violent business techniques.

    It's just a bonus that we'll save a few dollars by not incarcerating a few innocents.

    Pharmacists are nonviolent, but gangsters are not. Liquor stores are nonviolent, but bootleggers were not. This does suggest a causal relationship, but that relationship is between the prohibition and the violence.

    Edit: Out of curiosity, could you respond to my question regarding the source of income for privately owned jails and prisons, if you can?

  24. #24
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    At any rate marshaulit seems that you have moved this topic to your own, and away from what was really the topic here.

    My friend that you think you need to argue with, is more on spot about what happens here in Montana than you know. Montana and California are so far apart, that you do not understand what goes on here in Montana. I used to live across the bay from SF, and know first hand what that state needs.

    On the other hand I won't agrue with you any further, as a very smart man once told me, to not argue with stupid people, as they will only beat you with experience.

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    If the validity of a position does not become clear in open debate, but must be declared by those who support it, it must be a weak position indeed.

    Declaring your opposition "stupid" does not make it so, and it only further underlines the lack of ability to defend your position.

    This forum is filled with posts that go miles off-topic. Only when a discussion results in something other than masturbatory, back-slapping lockstep is it all of a sudden "not worth" arguing with "stupid" opponents.

    Your insults, as they so frequently will, speak more about you and your lack of ability to defend your position than they ever will about me.

    Incidentally, I would still like an explanation for how privately owned jails or prisons magically operate at a true profit (i.e. create value) rather than depending upon taxpayer dollars. If they are able to run making a legitimate profit, you'd think at least one of you would take the time to provide some evidence.

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