Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: No Pizza for Open Carry Gun Families

  1. #1
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    2,519

    Post imported post

    Oddly, I found out about this from David Codrea, at War on guns, not here.

    So, I'm echoing David's post here.

    A Family Atmosphere

    Thursday, October 08, 2009
    "This is supposed to be a family atmosphere," said an IPC employee, who asked to remain anonymous. "We got no problem with them coming in. We just don't want them carrying guns. I mean, we don't live in the Wild West, man."
    Sounds like just the kind of informed opinion I want making decisions about my safety.

    It also sounds like a perfect business opportunity for a restaurateur who's not an idiot to create an atmosphere that respects our right to protect our families.

    From the Boise Weekly:

    First, they were turned away from Fuddruckers, then Idaho Pizza Company, farther out. But here at Shari's, just west of the Idaho State Police building in Meridian, John Carter and Mike Ludlow are finally able to sit down to dinner, black Glocks still strapped to their hips.

    The evening, up to this point, had certainly taken on a no-room-at-the-inn feel. Their objectives were simple: to sit down in a restaurant with their handguns clearly hanging in hip holsters, and to enjoy dinner with other like-minded and explicitly armed individuals.


    Carter and Ludlow are two pro-Second Amendment, gun-carrying activists trying to establish a local gun-rights advocacy group. On this night, however, their interest goes beyond your everyday, "to keep and bear arms" right.

    The firearms right that Carter and Ludlow are interested in advocating, exercising and promoting is called "open carry." They're not only advocating carrying a gun for the entire Glock-fearing or, as the case may be, Glock-loving world to see, they also have a strong interest in seeing you openly carrying a firearm, too.

    "We want to use the presence of our openly carried firearms to start a dialogue on what is legal in Idaho," said Ludlow, his Model 31 .357SIG Glock holstered on his right hip.

    Even though Ludlow has a permit to carry a concealed weapon, he prefers to carry his gun openly, which is legal in Idaho and does not require any special permit. For both him and Carter, open carrying is about personal safety and deterring crime.

    According to opencarry.org, Idaho is one of 11 states—including Montana, Wyoming and Virginia—that allow citizens to openly carry firearms without a license. Only eight states don't allow any type of open carry.

    The right to open carry in Idaho was established in 1902. And even though President Barack Obama's election last year sparked a flurry of concern among the pro-gun crowd, gun rights themselves show no sign of being rolled back by the federal government. In fact, with the Supreme Court's decision to strike down Washington, D.C.'s handgun ban and to hear a new challenge to Chicago's similar ban next year, gun rights seem to be expanding.

    "What this really comes down to is [that] your safety is your primary concern, and the safety of your family," said Carter, who was carrying a Glock .45. "There's no one else who's going to take care of it. You're in charge of your safety."

    And this is what caused the two men so much trouble, dinner-wise, on this night.

    The original Open Carry Dinner, organized by Ludlow and Carter, was to be at the Meridian Fuddruckers, and press releases went out to this effect. This widespread announcement to the local media, from the hindsight that the corner booth at Shari's later provided, may not have been the best strategy.

    Less than 24 hours after the press release, Idaho Statesman entertainment reporter Michael Deeds posted the info on his blog, complete with references to Gunsmoke, bullet-proof jackets, and (a bit inexplicably) nunchucks. The calls to Fuddruckers began. By Saturday afternoon, the calls expressing concern about such a dinner forced Ludlow to reschedule at Idaho Pizza Company in Meridian.

    But after four Open Carriers showed up for pizza with guns on their belts, they were politely told by the manager to please disarm or leave.

    "This is supposed to be a family atmosphere," said an IPC employee, who asked to remain anonymous. "We got no problem with them coming in. We just don't want them carrying guns. I mean, we don't live in the Wild West, man."

    After huddling in the parking lot outside of IPC, Carter and Ludlow agreed to go to Shari's, where they'd never had a problem while open carrying. Two others decided to call it a night. At Shari's, they walked in, women and children in tow, and sat down.

    Not one of the diners seemed to look twice at their weapons. Shari's, after all, is something of a cop hangout. Regulars are used to seeing troopers with their gun belts, state detectives in loose suits and holsters.

    After three tries, the Open Carry Dinner was on. But the group's numbers, originally in the handful range, had dwindled. Only Ludlow and Carter were open carrying. If their goal is to re-normalize guns in America, the night's double rejection spoke to the size of the task.

    "That irrational simple-mindedness is what hurts us the most," Carter said after sliding into the booth. "In his article, [Deeds] implied it was going to be the Wild, Wild West. And by implying that, you're implying shootouts on a Saturday night. So by his tone, he was implying we were going to go in and shoot up the place, which, as you can attest, we have not done."

    It was true. Meals continued uninterrupted. Sodas arrived; tables were cleared. The waiter hardly seemed to notice the guns.

    That's not always the case. Carter describes at least two times when he's been stopped by local police because someone saw him carrying his gun and called the cops. Once he was surrounded by four officers while walking in Caldwell, not bothering anyone, "just a guy with a gun," he said.

    "My neighborhood isn't terrible," said Carter, "but it isn't the greatest, so I felt like carrying. And that's all I need to say: I felt like carrying. It'd be like my coming up to someone and telling them, 'you need to turn off your Walkman. It offends me.' There's not a lot of difference there."

    Much of the tension of the gun debate lies within this parallel, which is common among gun advocates. One of the open carriers who showed up at IPC had a truck sporting a bumper sticker that compared guns to seat belts: you never know when you'll need them.

    But a seat belt or an iPod aren't inherently deadly weapons, and the analogy seems to confuse feeling offended with feeling threatened.

    Still, these analogies get at the heart of the Idaho gun debate. Pro-gun advocates like Ludlow and Carter see guns as tools. Anti-gun advocates see them as threats, as instruments of death. Like abortion, health care and marriage, guns are cultural symbols that carry political, ethical and emotional messages. The black Glocks on Carter and Ludlow's belts are capable of sparking both pride and fear.

    And it's the reaction of fear that the group wants to change. But, judging from that night at Shari's, its rhetorical methods vary.

    Ludlow maintained a comfortable, respectful quiet throughout the night. In the last five months, he'd drawn his weapon five times (while working in Arizona, not Idaho), once to defend himself against a motel-room invasion, another time to protect a woman who was being chased by a man with a tire iron.

    He recognizes the philosophical gap between pro- and anti-open carriers. To Ludlow, guns are tools. "Some of the people on the other side see [a gun] as an instrument of death," he said. "I don't see it like that."

    Carter is less judicial.

    "If you have a fear that people with guns are going to run around and shoot someone," he said, "well, that's because you're afraid if you had a gun, you'd run around and shoot someone."

    The question is this: How do you reintroduce firearms into a culture that, as Ludlow and Carter have admitted, has rejected them as a part of everyday life? How do you push people toward the open-carry advocate's ideal society, one in which everyone who is permitted to do so openly carries a gun.

    It's often the first question you're asked when you inquire as to why they're carrying guns: Why aren't you?

    "They're going to have to someday wake up and realize that they've been living in this society, and guns have been prevalent and gun crime is not," said Carter. "People aren't shooting up the streets on Saturday night."

    There is, as their dinner attests, work to be done.

    "As tonight proved, we're not as far ahead as people would like to think we are," said Carter. "I can't walk into any restaurant I want to. I can't go everywhere I want."

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Lancaster County, PA
    Posts
    118

    Post imported post

    This is why I say that the gun rights issue is now an issue of segregation. This is EXACTLY like racial segregation of the 50's and 60's.

  3. #3
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Northern Fauquier Co, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,297

    Post imported post

    OCers kicked out of a pizza place? Unpossible!
    :celebrate

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Lobelville, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    2,615

    Post imported post

    BillMCyrus wrote:
    This is why I say that the gun rights issue is now an issue of segregation. This is EXACTLY like racial segregation of the 50's and 60's.
    uh... not quite.

    No one can change their race, no one can choose their race. We are who we are.

    Gun carriers have options, like.....to carry or not to carry.

    Is it segregation to ban persons that choose to excercise a Constitutional Right? Yes

    Saying that it is EXACTLY like racial segregation of the 50's (actually goes back further than that) and 60's, is a stretch, IMHO. It also shows you need to brush up on your history. The struggle to end racial segregation was during the 50's and 60's. Segregation had been around since dang near the founding of this country.

  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    longwatch wrote:
    OCers kicked out of a pizza place? Unpossible!


    For all the new guys:

    http://www.vcdl.org/Tonys/mcpd.html
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Grennsboro NC
    Posts
    5,358

    Post imported post

    Although "BillMCyrus" makes an interesting parallel, our movement is NOT "exactly" like the civil rights movement, nor is discrimination against gun owners who OC or CC "exactly" like discrimination against minorities from that era. A black or hispanic or middle-eastern person cannot CHOSE the color of their skin or the texture of their hair. We, however, CAN shose to carry or not carry. When we are met with people who don't like what we do and what we represent, we CAN change our situation by leaving the gun at home or in our vehicle. A "person of color" can't step outside of a restaurant and change his or her pigmentation. It is a VERY different thing, EVEN if the attitude of the person performing the discrimination is acting in the same way, by calling us names, refusing us services, or denying us access to their business.

    It's a VERY different type of discrimination, and one could argue that it is actually a MUCH more insidious and anti-American type of discrimination. People or businesses who discriminate against gun owners are essentially persecuting us of a crime of the mind--thought crimes--because they object to our mindset of personal responsibility, our dedication to the IDEA that self-defense is a HUMAN RIGHT, and our heart-felt belief that we have a RESPONSIBILITY to ourselves, our families, and our communities to take PERSONAL RESPONSIBLITY for our own security.

    Although racism is NOT excusable in a modern, civilized culture, it does have it roots in a fundamental (some would argue genetically programmed) condition of human tribal-thought. Zenophobia is a survival instinct, and being afraid, distrusting, or hostile toward people who look different is something that is common to almost ALL human cultures. In our modern American society, we are supposed to be enlightened enough to realize that pre-judging people based on looks is just stupid (and it is!) but from a sociological and psychological point of view, such base instincts are understandable, even if they ARE repulsive, intolerable, and counter-productive to the formation and continuance of a culture of equality, liberty, and freedom. We are living in a "modern age", and in the most intellectually free nation on the planet, and therefore, we should all work to put these base beliefs behind us, and treat ALL people as we would like to be treated.

    I personally think racism is repulsive, and the sign of stunted intellectual and social development. It is a vestigial fossil of our tribal past. It is counter-productive to the progress of an enlightened society as envisioned by our founding fathers.

    However, the fear and hatred of weapons is, in fact, counter to normal human thought. Weapons are one of the tools fundamental to the human condition--allowing us to feed, cloth and protect ourselves, enabling us to ensure our personal freedom and security. The modern idea that weapons are somehow a threat to society is false, and is an insidious form on mind-control which is formulated to create a society of slaves, serfs, and dependency on the State. The fear and hatred of weapons is so fundamentally counter to the condition of Freedom, Liberty,and Personal Responsibility that it's proponents are required to resort to covert education, sneaky propaganda, and artful manipulation of research data to justify this viewpoint, because any ration, thoughtful, and free-thinking individual must be convinced of it's "truthfulness".

    How do we counter this? Certainly NOT by feeding into the very images that the "anti's" use to scare the public. Wearing tactical holsters, camo clothing, and spouting paramilitary or revolutionary rhetoric are ALL activities that will re-spark the very fears and emotional reactions that the anti's have so successfully embedded into the American psyche'.

    We need to appeal to the rational, responsible, concerned, and family-loving aspects of responsible gun ownership. We should stress that we are taking personal responsibility for not only our own personal safety, but that of our wives, our children, and our community. We need to stress that the visual deterrent of wearing a firearm are actually a community service, because it reduced random acts of personal crime and violence. We need to show that we are loving fathers, concerned mothers, engaged grandparents through our actions and attitudes.

    We need to be engaged in our communities in other ways--cleaning up roads and parks (the "Adopt a Highway" program is a GREAT way to start), working in our community with charities, churches, and other civil organizations. We should work VERY diligently to establish our positions as responsible, respectable, and actively engaged MEMBERS of our communities. People are more likely to consider our message openly if they already perceive us as being credible, respectable, and stable individuals, rather than a bunch of activists with an agenda, walking around with guns on our hips.

    I believe that my right to keep and bear arms is not merely a right granted to me as a citisen of this great nation, but that is a fundamental and basic human right. It is in the same class as free speach and religious freedom. We need to appeal to the publics deeply held beliefs in these other rights and convince them that the 2A is the same sort of thing, NOT by going off on "slippery slope" rants about how "without the 2A, the other rights are just a pen-stroke away from being taken away". But by establishing, through calm, rational discourse that our motivation for supporting our 2A rights is based in love and concern--for our families, our communities, and our entire society.

    Paranoia about the government may be well-founded, but it doesn't sell well to the "common man" in our current culture. Such arguments will get you branded as a "conspiracy theorist" or a "patriot movement nutcase".

    Dwelling on the fears of rape, robbery, and random violence only raises negative emotions in your audience, and only works if you have the ability to pound it into their heads 24/7 through the media, entertainment, and cultural programming. We as individual activists do not have these resources, so we need to take a different tack.

    Try using the "love and responsibility" argument. When someone ask you "why do you carry?", don't open with "because it's my Constitutional right". That will pretty much shut down the interaction with about 95% of the people out there. Try opening instead with something like this:

    "Because I'm a loving, responsible father (mother/grandparent/person) and I know that the ONLY person who can really care for the safety of my family/myself is ME. I take my responsibilities as a member of this community very seriously, and feel that I need to be prepared to protect my family/self if someone bad should try and prey on us/me, no matter WHERE we/I are/am. I love my family (cherish my own health and safety) and I know that the police can't be my personal bodyguards. So in order to keep the bad guys away from my family and out of the businesses I support, I choose to carry the best tools I know of to ensure my safety. Most criminals are cowards, and the mere sight of my legally-owned firearm safely tucked in a holster is enough keep them on their way."

    And when someone asks "is THAT legal to carry around?", try something like this:

    "Well, for me it is, because I've had a federal background check performed by the store where I bought it. And under the laws of my state/city it is perfectly legal to carry openly if I can own it legally. But I don't carry just because I can. I do it because I love my family, and I cherish the peace and safety of this city I call home. Bad guys are less likely to do bad things if they know there are good people who legally own firearms, walking among the population. They are less likely to hold up a store or mug someone on the street if they know there are law-abiding citizens all around who love their families and cherish the peace, and who are willing and prepared to defend themselves."

    We need to appeal to the promise of a gentle peace that an armed society brings. We are going to get nowhere if we continue to be perceived as a bunch of would-be minutemen, radical activists, and renegade gun nuts. We need people to know the REAL reason why we carry.

    It's NOT because a gun makes us feel more "manly". It's NOT because we fear every shadow, and think there are evil people around every corner and behind every tree. It's NOT because we think our government is going to round us up into internment camps. It's NOT because we have some sort of agenda, or want EVERYONE to walk around with a gun.

    It is because we have decided to be RESPONSIBLE members of our communities. It is because we love our families and feel that we MUST provide for their security and safety. It is because we don't want to have to be dependent on our already over-worked police to come to our rescue.

    It is because we like shopping at our local businesses, and know that bad guys don't prey on people who can defend themselves, and want everyone else in our community to feel safe when they are out shopping, eating, or seeking entertainment too.

    It is because of our love for our family and community, and our acceptance of the responsibility to do what we can to keep our homes and hometowns peaceful and safe.

    We carry because our hearts are filled with love, and because we have accepted responsibility for our own safety and that of our families.

    THAT is why we carry.

    Why all this mushy, lovey-dovey stuff? Because even a frothing leftist anti-gun screamer can't really argue rationally against love...

    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggressionand this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  7. #7
    Regular Member sipowicz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    27

    Post imported post

    This was very well said. Thought provoking to say the least.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Alexandria, Virginia, United States
    Posts
    2,290

    Post imported post

    I very recently had the opportunity to turn tables, so to speak.

    Chadwick's restaurant on The Strand here in Alexandria actually has a "NO FIREARMS" policy posted at the door. Very well, I will never cross their threshhold even if I am not armed.

    Well, one night not to long ago I was cruising down the Strand and a waitress came out waving at me with a big smile on her face. Oh,oh. When you drive a cab, one thing you soon learn is smiling wait-person/bartender/etc = "thank God I can fob this damn drunken blowhole off on a cabbie". Ordinarily I tell the server I am responding to a call blocks away and drive off. But this time I stopped, albeit with the doors locked. And I said "where to?". When she said she needed aa cab for a customer, I said:

    "Well, you won't serve me when I am legally carrying a firearm. So why the hell should I let you put an illegally publicly drunk person in my cab??" Call your bozo a cop car to detox!" and drove away. She yelled some kind of "I'm going to report you" threat, but nothing ever came of it. Probably because right behind me was a DC cab come poaching my territory in Old Town. Well, the bigger the smile on the server the worse the problem with the drunk; and hers was ear-to-ear. so, win-win!:celebrate

  9. #9
    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Alexandria, Virginia, United States
    Posts
    2,290

    Post imported post

    (hic)

  10. #10
    Regular Member XD40coyote's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    woman stuck in Maryland, ,
    Posts
    709

    Post imported post

    Well if it helps anyone, here's some pizza places in PA I know don't mind OC:

    Venice Pizza- Lancaster

    Paesanos- New Freedom

    Nikolas cafe- Shrewsbury ( if you OC here, I will hear about it later LOL)

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    , Georgia, USA
    Posts
    26

    Post imported post

    Wow Dreamer. I feel like asking for the hardback version for my library Very interesting. Suppose I might give the peace, love, sing around the campfire approach a try next time. I generally do try to keep my Patriotic eccentricities to a minimum but I'm up for anything that may help turn the tides.
    Did want to say one thing though. Although you are correct that a person can't change their color permanently, they can temporarily. Although we would never think of it in today's society, should a person choose there are many types of spray on tanners, chemical lightening agents, make-up, and body paints. Now before anyone gets huffy I am simply trying to make a point that we would never ask a person to do that just so that they could go into a restaurant with their families, so why should we have to capitulate and CC instead of OC (or not carry at all) in order to enjoy a family meal? It doesn't change who we are inside or our beliefs and personally if I have to do that I feel much the same shame, feelings of letting down those I care about, uneasiness, and a sense of lying as I did growing up when I would dress/talk/ and coat myself in suntan lotion and skin lightener in order to look more white. I didn't like not being accepted for who I was then, and I don't like being forced to "play nice" for those who chose to be fearful and ignorant of who I am now; just to repeat the same cycle of trying to get them to like me first so that I can then proceed to defend myself to them.

    I think the next time I see someone WITHOUT a gun I'm going to approach them and began questioning why they don't have one, tell them I'm offended and that THEY scare me, and inform them they can remove themselves from my business/home/vehicle. I might call the cops too.

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Posts
    11,487

    Post imported post

    Alexcabbie wrote:
    Well, one night not to long ago I was cruising down the Strand and a waitress came out waving at me with a big smile on her face.* Oh,oh.* When you drive a cab, one thing you soon learn is smiling wait-person/bartender/etc = "thank God I can fob this damn drunken blowhole off on a cabbie". Ordinarily I tell the server I am responding to a call blocks away and drive off.* But this time I stopped, albeit with the doors locked.* And I said "where to?".* When she said she needed aa cab for a customer, I said:

    "Well, you won't serve me when I am legally carrying a firearm.* So why the hell should I let you put an illegally publicly drunk person in my cab??" Call your bozo a cop car to detox!" and drove away.*
    Good call.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    1,098

    Post imported post

    Alexcabbie wrote:
    I very recently had the opportunity to turn tables, so to speak.

    Chadwick's restaurant on The Strand here in Alexandria actually has a "NO FIREARMS" policy posted at the door. Very well, I will never cross their threshhold even if I am not armed.

    Well, one night not to long ago I was cruising down the Strand and a waitress came out waving at me with a big smile on her face. Oh,oh. When you drive a cab, one thing you soon learn is smiling wait-person/bartender/etc = "thank God I can fob this damn drunken blowhole off on a cabbie". Ordinarily I tell the server I am responding to a call blocks away and drive off. But this time I stopped, albeit with the doors locked. And I said "where to?". When she said she needed aa cab for a customer, I said:

    "Well, you won't serve me when I am legally carrying a firearm. So why the hell should I let you put an illegally publicly drunk person in my cab??" Call your bozo a cop car to detox!" and drove away. She yelled some kind of "I'm going to report you" threat, but nothing ever came of it. Probably because right behind me was a DC cab come poaching my territory in Old Town. Well, the bigger the smile on the server the worse the problem with the drunk; and hers was ear-to-ear. so, win-win!:celebrate
    Wow. That. Is. Awesome.

    If I'm every in that area, I will PM for your dispatch phone and ensure you have some business!

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Ohio, USA
    Posts
    1,558

    Post imported post

    Those that kick responsibly gun owners out are fools. For one they might as well kick them out for their skin color. They are doing the same thing, discriminating against a person and in turn are only hurting their business. Especially now with the economy in the crapper as it is, you would think anyone would be welcomed. Not only that it make their shop safer they get money to keep open. I have handed these out on several occasions and tell on form sites on what stores to avoid. . I have given these to many store owners with the promise on advise all friends and family who carry to avoid them like the plague.

    Mines OH and had to photo shop our info in.



    There are now almost 400 businesses reviewed, thanks to the efforts of many of you. Thanks!

    I just updated the [highlight= rgb(255, 255, 136);]Friend[/highlight] or [highlight= rgb(136, 255, 255);]Foe[/highlight] Tool with a new, shorter URL and a couple features.

    The new URL is http://friendorfoe.us so update any bookmarks you may have. The old URL will redirect if you access it.

    Also, the map now fills the page horizontally, and displays up to 250 businesses, as far as 500 miles away. That still doesn't let you see all in VA at once, but the map gets slower the more markers you add, so I didn't want to bog down anyone's browser unexpectedly.

    I have a couple more features coming soon.

    As always, feedback is welcome/appreciated. Thanks!
    -I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you screw with me, I'll kill you all.
    -Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
    Marine General James Mattis,

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •