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Thread: In the process of writing two local anti-OC gun stores...

  1. #1
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    I'm in the process of writing my letter to my two local gun stores. If anyone can quick cite some relative laws that pertain directly to the legality of OC, and how, by having a CPL, does not mean you must keep your weapon concealed, without me having to skim through a ton of pages, that'd be great. Either PM them to me, or respond here. Thanks.
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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  3. #3
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    lol; apparently we're both working on the same track at the same time. Thanks a million. Now I just gotta get my laws in order without giving them a book to read. I was going to include the LEO packet along with whatever relevant laws I can find.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    malignity wrote:
    Add more guys, we need to show them that we can go elsewhere.
    White's Gun Shop in Waterford, Safes Unlimited in Keego Harbor, and Dick's Sporting Goods in Novi haveNO issues when I OC while visiting their gun shops.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Venator gave me a list too. I'm not sure if they're added or not, but I'll throw them in there if need be.

    I'm gonna need to sift through the laws to the stuff that directly pertains to OC without a permit, as well as not requiring CPL holders to remain concealed.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  6. #6
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    malignity wrote:
    Venator gave me a list too. I'm not sure if they're added or not, but I'll throw them in there if need be.

    I'm gonna need to sift through the laws to the stuff that directly pertains to OC without a permit, as well as not requiring CPL holders to remain concealed.
    I wouldn't emphasise the law part too much,many of them know it's legal. You have to dispel the myths they think will happen and stress the economic and bad reputation among gun owners they will garner from there bad policy.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  7. #7
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    I'm working on that too.

    I've got pretty much the entire letter written, but I would like to get some law put in there, specifically because when I was in Target Sports, they insisted that CPL holders agree that in accordance to state law, our firearm must remain concealed.

    I think a brush up on the law wouldn't be too far fetched either unfortunately, on top of how it will effect business.

    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    malignity wrote:
    I'm working on that too.

    I've got pretty much the entire letter written, but I would like to get some law put in there, specifically because when I was in Target Sports, they insisted that CPL holders agree that in accordance to state law, our firearm must remain concealed.

    I think a brush up on the law wouldn't be too far fetched either unfortunately, on top of how it will effect business.
    Keep this in mind. My friend who does not OC says Target Sports employees are complete asses. I've been in there 1 time window shopping so I have nothing myself. But word is they are total asses & their full of it.

    Mike

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    mikestilly wrote:
    malignity wrote:
    I'm working on that too.

    I've got pretty much the entire letter written, but I would like to get some law put in there, specifically because when I was in Target Sports, they insisted that CPL holders agree that in accordance to state law, our firearm must remain concealed.

    I think a brush up on the law wouldn't be too far fetched either unfortunately, on top of how it will effect business.
    Keep this in mind. My friend who does not OC says Target Sports employees are complete asses. I've been in there 1 time window shopping so I have nothing myself. But word is they are total asses & their full of it.

    Mike
    I had bad experiences at both Target and Double Action at first until they got to know me. I do not like Target as they force you to use their ammo (unless it is .22 Caliber Rimfire). The guys at Midwest Ordinance (Royal Oak) and D&D Gunsmiths (Troy/Clawson) have treated me well every time I have been there. D&D Gunsmiths fixed my favorite deer rifle within 2 days right before Firearm Deer Season one year!

    I would not like to work in a gun shop as they have many, many idiots come in there that do not know/practice the 4 Rules nor have any knowledge/respect for firearms.
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

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    PDinDetroit wrote:
    mikestilly wrote:
    malignity wrote:
    I'm working on that too.

    I've got pretty much the entire letter written, but I would like to get some law put in there, specifically because when I was in Target Sports, they insisted that CPL holders agree that in accordance to state law, our firearm must remain concealed.

    I think a brush up on the law wouldn't be too far fetched either unfortunately, on top of how it will effect business.
    Keep this in mind. My friend who does not OC says Target Sports employees are complete asses. I've been in there 1 time window shopping so I have nothing myself. But word is they are total asses & their full of it.

    Mike
    I had bad experiences at both Target and Double Action at first until they got to know me.* I do not like Target as they force you to use their ammo (unless it is .22 Caliber Rimfire).* The guys at Midwest Ordinance (Royal Oak) and D&D Gunsmiths (Troy/Clawson) have treated me well every time I have been there.* D&D Gunsmiths fixed my favorite deer rifle within 2 days right before Firearm Deer Season one year!

    I would not like to work in a gun shop as they have many, many idiots come in there that do not know/practice the 4 Rules nor have any knowledge/respect for firearms.*
    I used to go to target sports all the time, and most of them are asses, there are a couple who are not but they have no authority. The big problem with OC there is that the owner is good friends with their cpl instructor who is totally against oc. I took his course and he made sure to state that "people with a cpl can not leagally oc". So while I would love to see there policy change I doubt it will. Good luck though.

  11. #11
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    PDinDetroit wrote:
    I do not like Target as they force you to use their ammo (unless it is .22 Caliber Rimfire).
    I'm not sure when you were there last, but this isn't the case, and hasn't been since I've gone there. I've always brought my own ammo. You just can't use Wolf garbage there is all.
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    Just a heads up. The employees at Target Sports alone are total jerks. Complete asses, even aside from the OC issue. I would choose another place to send a letter to. Based on my good friends experience there I wont spend a dime in that place.

    Mike

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    Actually there aren't any laws that pertain to open carry. Because there are NO laws that prohibit it, it's legal.

    Nothing in the laws says you must conceal with a CPL, only that you MAY.

    Ask whoever is telling you these things to show you the law that says it or at least give you the MCL number. With all the cops & ex cops around there, that should be no problem.

  14. #14
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    I've never had a problem with their employees at all. In fact, it's been Double Action who i've had major problems with as far as employees go.

    So I guess what I'll have to do is include the CC and OC laws in their entirety to show that nowhere does it say that OC is illegal and that a gun must remain concealed?
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    malignity wrote:
    I've never had a problem with their employees at all. In fact, it's been Double Action who i've had major problems with as far as employees go.

    So I guess what I'll have to do is include the CC and OC laws in their entirety to show that nowhere does it say that OC is illegal and that a gun must remain concealed?
    Why do you feel you have to show them anything? It is they that should be willing to show you, they are the ones trying to say it is illegal.

    If it is, it should be simple to prove it.

    P.S. What OC laws are you talking about? I don't know of any other then the restrictions on where you can carry.

  16. #16
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    There are restrictions on OC without a CPL. Any place that serves alcohol or has a liquor license, for example. Here, I'll PM you a portion of my letter, so you can further understand what I'm looking for. While it would be convenient to give them the burden of proof, their initial reaction will be 'we're a private business, we can do what they want'. If I provide firearm law, I will be showing them that they are in fact further restricting people above state law. Granted, they may still say that they're a private business and they can do what they want, however, I want them to be aware that they are not acting within the law like they claim to be doing.

    If anyone wants a copy of my letter, let me know and I'll PM it to you. I'm going to have Venator proof it before I send it cause he's got a lot of experience at this kinda stuff.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  17. #17
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    I have never had any issues whatsoever at Target Sports. I was just there Tuesday shooting. Spent 2 hours on the range. Used my own ammo. Both rifle and pistol. Went through about 500 rounds. They do limit the amount that you can purchase. That's why I bring my own.

    Seeing that I'm such an ass or dick, according to some of the responses I get here and at TOS, i guess it no wonder I get treated with such respect from Ray and the rest of his crew.

    ETA: I was OC'ing the whole time I was in there. Entering, checking in, shooting, checking out, browsing throughout the store, and departing. No body objected. And the USP is very noticeable.

    Why do you want to send them a letter? It seems to me that they allow OC.

  18. #18
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Does anyone by chance know the name of the owner of Target sports? I don't want to just address it to to whom it may concern.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  19. #19
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Ahhh yes.

    Here's something I can use. This is taken directly from the MSP website; http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7...0953--,00.html



    I'm sure a few of you have seen this, but it's always good to re-hash good information


    3. Do I need a concealed pistol permit to carry my pistols while walking through the woods near my cabin in Michigan? If not, are there any restrictions on how or where the gun is carried?
    MCL 750.227 allows you to carry a pistol concealed or not if you are in your own home or on your own property. If you do not own the land, no license is needed to carry a pistol as long as it is exposed. However, should a person cover the pistol during inclement weather with a jacket or coat or get into a vehicle, the pistol would be concealed, and the carrier would place himself in jeopardy unless he possessed a concealed pistol permit. Per Attorney General's opinion #3158 dated February 14, 1945, a holster, in plain view, is not considered concealed. Department of Natural Resources regulations require a person to have a valid Michigan hunting license if in an area inhabited by wildlife, while in possession of a firearm.




    ~That being said, if anyone knows the owner of Target sports, I still need his name before I shoot out my letter.


    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    J Ray

  21. #21
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Thanks. Is he the italian or caldean looking guy that's ALWAYS there? He and I had a conversation about OC once, and he said while, he did not necessarily agree with OC, that it would not be a problem if someone OC'd in their store. Once I actually DID OC in his store however, he seemed to have a cow; and told me that I was only able to return to his store if my weapon was concealed. This is why I believe a letter is in order.

    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    Yes that's Ray.

    I also posted for you at TOS.

    Tag you're it.

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    IMO you are wasting your time with Target Sports they are asswipes. They could care less about customer service.

  24. #24
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    CV67PAT wrote:
    Yes that's Ray.

    I also posted for you at TOS.

    Tag you're it.
    TOS?
    Sorry? Not sure what that is. I imagine you're referring to Michigan Gun Owners?

    Anyway, I'm still working on everything here, and I've gotta bolt off to work. (Lovely midnight shift.) Thanks for the quick replies.

    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    TOS: The Other Site

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