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Thread: Plymouth, PA Cops Assault Me, Terrorize My Toddler Son Over Open Carry

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    Hey all, I recently moved back to PA after being away for awhile, and started open carrying. I keep it low key and don't go anywhere I didn't plan to go anyway. I've open carried around my block, at Wal-Mart, Target, Shoprite, Costco, Starbucks, all over the place. And all without incident until yesterday when I went for a walk in the park.

    I was handcuffed. 6 plymouth township cops showed up and hassled me for 30-45 minutes. They terrorized my toddler son and otherwise acted like thugs after a lady called the cops on me. I did nothing wrong or aggressive. I find carrying has inclined me towards an even more conciliatory stance in public.

    Anyway, here is the story. Your constructive reactions appreciated.

    http://georgedonnelly.com/asides/ply...ault-terrorize

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    Can we say Federal Civil Rights Lawsuit? See Allentown or Dickson City postings.

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    I think you should shut up and call a lawyer immediatly

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    georgedonnelly wrote:
    Hey all, I recently moved back to PA after being away for awhile, and started open carrying. I keep it low key and don't go anywhere I didn't plan to go anyway. I've open carried around my block, at Wal-Mart, Target, Shoprite, Costco, Starbucks, all over the place. And all without incident until yesterday when I went for a walk in the park.

    I was handcuffed. 6 plymouth township cops showed up and hassled me for 30-45 minutes. They terrorized my toddler son and otherwise acted like thugs after a lady called the cops on me. I did nothing wrong or aggressive. I find carrying has inclined me towards an even more conciliatory stance in public.

    Anyway, here is the story. Your constructive reactions appreciated.

    http://georgedonnelly.com/asides/ply...ault-terrorize
    You need to fle a lawsuit if you want them to stop - try to find an attorrey who will take your case on contingency for damages - handcuffing you was an extreme violation of your rights considering they had no basis to seize you in the first place.

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    Can you give me a pointer to the Allentown one?

    I think I found the Dickson City one.

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    georgedonnelly wrote:
    Can you give me a pointer to the Allentown one?

    I think I found the Dickson City one.
    I think the same law fiorm is doing both; try aso calling around, try referall services - the PA bar should have a referral service where you pay a small fee for consultation with a lawyer generally practicing in your line of lawsuit - make sure you provide them a copy of the recent open carry summary judgement ruling from teh New Mexico judge - it can be found linked to from http://www.examiner.com/x-2782-DC-Gu...-carrying-guns- dive him/her this article too.

    Also, have you requested the records of your incident including the 911 call audio file under the PA open records law? if not, get moving!

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    you definitely need to get a lawyer. my brother is in Plymouth at least 2x a week; he hasn't been hassled yet, except for a lady in Turkey Hill. you need to get on this, before someone else gets hassled, or worse.
    Givin' up the tactical advantage since 2008.

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    My advice to you is to remove any references to this from the internet and hire a lawyer.



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    PisnNapalm wrote:
    My advice to you is to remove any references to this from the internet and hire a lawyer.

    I agree. Remember, Anything you say can and will be used against you.....
    Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the Government's purposes are beneficent.
    Louis Dembitz Brandeis

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    Try contacting GunLawyer on PAFOA, he's in the Philly area

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    Guys thank you. I will see about getting those records.

    I won't be deleting my accounts of the incident. It is critical that people be aware and if my experience serves that purpose, excellent.

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    Go get 'em George. Clean their clocks, metaphorically speaking.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Contact a lawyer and see about filing a civil rights lawsuit.

    I would also file a complaint with the department involved--for what good it will do, AS WELL AS filing a criminal complaint with the civil rights division of the FBI in your area--which would be probably in Pittsburgh.



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    So where is your audio recording of this encounter? If you say you don't have one then why not? If you believe that you have to carry a gun to protect your son, then why not carry a cheap device to protect your rights?

    An Audio recorder should be a requirement with a gun. Just like a gun is a tool, so a voice recorder.

    I am sorry to hear that this happened to you. I hope justice prevails. But never never carry a gun without protecting yourself. I have a small sony recorder that fits easily in my pocket. it goes into my pocket just like my wallet. never leave home without it.

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    You need an attorney asap. You need to preserve any evidence before it is lost or destroyed.

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    You need to fle a lawsuit if you want them to stop - try to find an attorrey who will take your case on contingency for damages - handcuffing you was an extreme violation of your rights considering they had no basis to seize you in the first place.

    Good luck on that. Most civil rights lawyers in PA couldn't be bothered unless there are blood and guts involved. I would try the allentown lawyer or the one in the Dickson city case, not Johnna gelb.

    Guys, if you truely want to be free, you can't rely on other people to fight your battles for you.

    I would also file a complaint with the department involved--for what good it will do, AS WELL AS filing a criminal complaint with the civil rights division of the FBI in your area--which would be probably in Pittsburgh.

    Work on the lawsuit first, then the complaint.

    Just my personal rant, but I absolutely can not stand the "am I legally required to show you that?" response. It makes you sound like you don't know what your rights are and if they say yes, you have to go to through the exchange disputing that the law requires it and such. Just say no.


    If someone asks to speak to you, just say no.

    The court's are not part of their gang, sue in Federal and get a real judge.

    Finally, you talk waaaaaay too much in that encounter. Just assert your rights and keep quiet.

    Now that you've been hassled, what are you going to do about it?

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    codename_47 wrote:
    SNIP Just my personal rant, but I absolutely can not stand the "am I legally required to show you that?" response. It makes you sound like you don't know what your rights are and if they say yes, you have to go to through the exchange disputing that the law requires it and such.
    You have a point. I'm thinkingthat if you are recording, it can really highlight the disingenuousness of the cops. It sort of gives them some rope to stick their head in the noose.

    Remember the Ron Paul rep detained by the feds at the airport? The feds really showed their backside when he asked that question repeatedly.

    Besides, if they say "yes", a person can always still decline to answer the question. "No, I don't think I'll answer. No, offense. I know you're probably just doing your job, but my attorney made it clear I shouldn't answer any questions."


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    The question I have is when you mentioned the waste of time and taxpayer monies, they said you weren't in their jurisdiction? If you weren't in their jurisdiction then why the encounter? Was it even legal for them to contact you at all? My head is really spinning over this one. Good luck and I hope it all works out in you favor.
    He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent which will reach to himself. -- Thomas Paine (1737--1809), Dissertation on First Principles of Government, 1795

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    DJ_Amish, how do you get your voice recorder out when the cop has come up behind you and is already nervous about where you put your hands and yours is in a pocket?

    Clearly I need better, more accessible gear because that is the situation that I faced and I wasn't going to risk getting blown away. After that I didn't even have a chance as my hands were bound.

    codename_47, if I say outright no the cop has a basis for claiming I was not co-operating. This way I cleanly render his question moot without refusing to cooperate.

    Thos.Jefferson I was on the side of the street that is in plymouth township but reside on the other side of the street, which is east norriton.

    Thanks guys.

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    georgedonnelly wrote:
    DJ_Amish, how do you get your voice recorder out when the cop has come up behind you and is already nervous about where you put your hands and yours is in a pocket?

    Clearly I need better, more accessible gear because that is the situation that I faced and I wasn't going to risk getting blown away. After that I didn't even have a chance as my hands were bound.

    codename_47, if I say outright no the cop has a basis for claiming I was not co-operating. This way I cleanly render his question moot without refusing to cooperate.

    Thos.Jefferson I was on the side of the street that is in plymouth township but reside on the other side of the street, which is east norriton.

    Thanks guys.
    The recorder is easy--when you start to put your gun on and start out the door, regardless of where you are going--turn on the recorder before you step out the door, and keep it with you-and keep it on. Most good recorders will last several days on batteries--at least mine does. When you get in for the evening if nothing has happened--simply erase the days recording and start over the next time you go out.

    As for the cop claiming you are not cooperating--it is not your job to do their job for them. You are not required under the law to answer any questions other than those necessary to identify yourself with (assuming the cop has RAS or PC to demand your name and address, OR if Pennsylvania has a "stop and ID" statute). You don't have to tell them where you are going, where you came from, what you are doing or why. They may try to intimidate you, they may threaten you or harass you, they may lie to you--and most likely will--but that is what lawyers and lawsuits are for.

    A good audio recorder is absolutely essential--don't carry your gun without one--the recorder will be invaluable for you in my opinion.

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    Remember the Ron Paul rep detained by the feds at the airport? The feds really showed their backside when he asked that question repeatedly.

    My thoughts were that the guy sounded like a moron asking legal advice from the cops. Just cut to the chase and say "I'm not talking to you, I want a lawyer" or just go Nancy Reagan on them and say no. You lose style points, IMHO, that's all and it may open up a defense of a consensual encounter, but it is a decent "non-answer"

    Illustrating disingenuous behavior doesn't get you many points in court.

    Can I talk to you? No

    Can we step over here? no

    Can I see some ID? No


    Besides, if they say "yes", a person can always still decline to answer the question.

    I think they would then go down the "you have to tell me that or you are breaking the law..." route. We all know of people who are have been accused of violating non-existent laws...cops who cite hilbel when there are no stop and identify statues and such.

    how do you get your voice recorder out when the cop has come up behind you and is already nervous about where you put your hands and yours is in a pocket?


    Have it running when you leave the house. Seriously

    if I say outright no the cop has a basis for claiming I was not co-operating.


    First of all, you are looking at this the wrong way. You have no obligation to co-operate with a cop or anyone really, short of a judge giving you a court order. i absolutely can't stand that phrase "cooperating with the police" that is code for waiving your constitutional rights, so say what you really mean. They wouldn't have a basis for claiming that you waived your constitutional rights.

    Get your mind right and realize that the cops work for YOU. They do what YOU say. YOU are the boss, not them. YOU pay their salaries. Act like it.

    Second, non-Cooperation is not illegal. So whatif you didn't what's he going to do? Charge you with Felonious non-cooperation? You speak of non-cooperation as if it is a bad thing, why? The cops sole purpose in life is to take your freedom and money. Why would you cooperate with that? Some people lack the self-preservation instinct, and I am not one of them.

    This way I cleanly render his question moot without refusing to cooperate.


    F' that. My mom told me not to talk to strangers. You shouldn't either.

    OR if Pennsylvania has a "stop and ID" statute)

    PA doesn't have that. RAS/PC should be identified at the onset (am I being detained? why? Do you suspect me of a crime?)


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    If you are on short walk from your house, don;t carry any ID or wallet - sterile carry.

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    Can anyone suggest what to request, what wording to be used on a PA Right-to-Know request form? I plan to request the 911 call, reports, any dash-cam video but if I don't use the right words I worry they will take the easy way out and not give me the info.

    Can anyone help me out with the right govt/police vocabulary words for this?

    Thanks.

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    georgedonnelly wrote:
    Can anyone suggest what to request, what wording to be used on a PA Right-to-Know request form? I plan to request the 911 call, reports, any dash-cam video but if I don't use the right words I worry they will take the easy way out and not give me the info.

    Can anyone help me out with the right govt/police vocabulary words for this?

    Thanks.
    This is a request for records pursuant to the PA Right-to-Know law. (Re-word as appropriate to include the actual statute name and statute number I am requesting records related toa police encounter with anarmed citizen on (date) at (time) at (location). I am requesting:

    • The 911 call recording to which the officers responded.
    • Any radio traffic recordings related to the encounter.
    • Dash-cam video related to the encounter.
    • Policecar or officer audio related to the encounter.
    • Field contact notes or reports about the encounter written by the officers.
    • Text communicationsto or from the police car related to the encounter.
    • (If you want to really dig): E-mails related to the encounter originated by either officer within 24 hours of the encounter.

    (Somebody else may be able to help you out with reminding the police about any time limits for releasing the records. If you have to pay for the request, you will want to put a cost limit over which they must first contact you for your express approval.)
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    It just seems to me that it is getting a little old listening to people crying about being ASSAULTED (look up the definition) by some idiot under color of law (see also official oppression). For cripes sake, why are you carrying in the first place- isn't it to protect yourself against such lawlessness? DUH, If some known burglar/robber/rapist, etc. approached you and politely asked you to produce your wallet and all identifying papers, etc. HOW WOULD YOU REACT?

    FLAME ON!!!!!

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