imported post
Nathan9493 wrote:
Citizen,
wow! That's a lot to put head around. What confuses me though is that in the Washington's forums, you'll read over and over that they cannot take your weapon unless you're suspected of a crime. They all cite several experiences were they have refused on this bases and have put the cop in his/her place.
BooBoo makes the point. There is a difference between atraffic stop and a foot stop. "Stop" here having the meaning of "detention."
Terry vs Ohio is the starting point. It addressesfoot encounters. There are two elements:
1. Police need reasonable suspicion that you were, are, or will soonbe involved in a crime in order to involuntarily detain you. This is called a Terry Stop.
2. If the police officer also has a reason to suspect you are both armed and presently dangerous, he may frisk you for weapons--gun, knife, etc. This is sometimes referred to as a Terry Patdown.
If the officer has no RAS of a crime, he has no authority to involuntarily detain you in the first place. If he has no authority to detain you in the first place, he has no authority to search youfor weapons for officer safety.
In a traffic stop, you have already been detained by the fact of the traffic stop.The court cases,
PA v Mimms and
Michigan v Long are applicable.
I cannot emphasize enough that you do not want to do more than politely, verbally refuse consent to a search or weapon seizure. Even if he is mistaken about the law, if the officer wants your gun, he
is going to get it.
With foot encounters there is another very important dynamic. The courts have reserved to themselves the power to determine whether RAS
existed at the time of the detention. Meaning, after the fact. In the roughly 40 years since
Terry, courts all over the country have been ruling on whether various sets of circumstances give enough RAS to justify thedetention. That is an awful lot of individual sets of circumstances to try to memorize. There is almost no way you can know with 100% certainty whether the copreally has genuine RAS
during the encounter.
You would have to know all the cases that have alreadybeen ruled. You would have to guess what a court would rule in your case. You would have to guess what the LEO observed or thinks he observed before approaching you. You would have to guess what the 911 caller told the LEO.
Guess wrong, and walk away whenthe cop thinks you are not freeto go and you might get tasered, or worse. Maybe an obstruction charge.Actually touch the cop, and the least you can hope for is assaulting a police officer. Charged after he and his buddies grind your face into the pavement, of course.
Start throwing his errors in his face, and you may back him into a corner where he
has to find something to charge you with, or plant evidence, inorder to avoid being sued, his only way out being to make sure he gets you convicted first.
The smart-alecky, put-them-in-their-place encounters are fun to read about, but get the wrong cop and it could go bad, really bad.
I recommend politely, verbally refusing consent while complying with orders. After you are well read, then you canknow what questions to ask to give the police rope to hang themselves if it is an illegaldetention.