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Thread: Clarification - seating capacity

  1. #1
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    The back of my Kent County CPL says I can't carry a concealed pistol in an entertainment facility seating more than 2500 persons (wording on the license). However, I believe the actual law says 2500 persons or more. Who do I contact to get clarification and/or complain if my card is misleading. This wouldn't be an issue except that my favorite movie theater has a 2500 person sign on the door. Seems to me Kent County is screwing this one up big time and could have gotten me into a lot of trouble because of the wording on the license they issue me.



    This isn't a place where I will open-carry as my wife would not be pleased if I couldn't return there.

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    Small game TRUTH ! The notice 2500 [ posted] is it factual ? Only fire department or counting seats etc.Any one may post anything that may or may not be true.

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    I would just assume it means 2500 AND more. If she does not want you to OC there, and you feel you must go, then don't take your gun.

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    T Vance wrote:
    I would just assume it means 2500 AND more. If she does not want you to OC there, and you feel you must go, then don't take your gun.
    Do you Know the definition of assume ?

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    taxwhat wrote:
    T Vance wrote:
    I would just assume it means 2500 AND more. If she does not want you to OC there, and you feel you must go, then don't take your gun.
    Do you Know the definition of assume ?
    Yep, but what is difference is 1 person going to make? As long as you lean towards the way I worded it, and not the other.

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    Ah rent a movie, and stay home save your fuel and the environment, this way they get to keep their empty theaters, you get to keep the extra money that you saved, and take your other half out for dinner. Or something like that on the saved theater money......DING:celebrate

    This is just a opinion , not intended to get one in trouble with the other half

  7. #7
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    For clarification I'm not so much worried about whether or not I can carry there as I am about the fact the at the license itself is wrong about how/when/where I carry. Kent County is essentially misleading all of the persons who carry a CPL. It just happens to come up because of this one specific place that I frequent.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    I believe that the state of Michigan designed the cpl card, not the individual county that issues the cpl.

    Which theater has the sign posted? The only one I knew of in the GR area was Studio 28; now out of business. The one I go to has no sign posted.


    If you look at the law, there are some requirements:
    1. The letters have to be not-less than 1 inch high;
    2. The sign needs to be above every public entrance.

    The signs I have seen often fail in one of these regards.


    MCL28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
    <snip>
    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.


    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    For instance at the theater in Portage the sign is between the doors on a wide expanse of glass ... I only noticed it BC I was wandering around waiting for someone....

    From the doors you cannot see it... and it is not above the doors or even on them.

    So in my opinion it does not conform with the law and cannot be enforced...

    NOTE I am not a lawyer!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    It was at the Celebration Cinema North on the E Beltline.

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    I feel DrTodd said this one best. If it doesnt meet the below criteria I would not worry about it. This is what I use to gauge weather I'm going to or not.

    If you look at the law, there are some requirements:
    1. The letters have to be not-less than 1 inch high;
    2. The sign needs to be above every public entrance.

    The signs I have seen often fail in one of these regards.


    MCL28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
    <snip>
    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

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    mikestilly wrote:
    I feel DrTodd said this one best. If it doesnt meet the below criteria I would not worry about it. This is what I use to gauge weather I'm going to or not.

    If you look at the law, there are some requirements:
    1. The letters have to be not-less than 1 inch high;
    2. The sign needs to be above every public entrance.

    The signs I have seen often fail in one of these regards.


    MCL28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
    <snip>
    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.
    If it can be proven that you reasonably should have known that the entertainment facility could seat more than 2500, then you're screwed.

    Careful out there.

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    mikestilly wrote:
    I feel DrTodd said this one best. If it doesnt meet the below criteria I would not worry about it. This is what I use to gauge weather I'm going to or not.

    If you look at the law, there are some requirements:
    1. The letters have to be not-less than 1 inch high;
    2. The sign needs to be above every public entrance.

    The signs I have seen often fail in one of these regards.


    MCL28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
    <snip>
    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.
    If it can be proven that you reasonably should have known that the entertainment facility could seat more than 2500, then you're screwed.

    Careful out there.
    Remember Detriot Zoo ?

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    sevenplusone wrote:
    It was at the Celebration Cinema North on the E Beltline.
    Used to go there alot before their prices got WELL out of hand.

    Those are in such a light color that I've missed it in most of the times I've gone in there. But they are there, you are right.

    I noticed it after I started carrying

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    I would say they meet those requirements.

  16. #16
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    I looked up the seating capacity for Celebration Cinema (North) and the (unverified) seating capacity appears to be 3500; I hesitated posting it. BUT since you "know" that it meets the "2500+" requirement, then I guess me posting it here doesn't hurt your carrying ability.

    Zig is correct... be careful. I am aware of two places in this state that post a seating capacity of 2500+, even though they actually have an actual seating capacity of slightly less. Since they are not posted as required by law and have an actual seating capacity of less than 2500, I ignore the signs. The way the law is written, either the posting or the actual seating capacity could cause the facility to be a "no concealed zone" (depending on how the judge/jury decides to read the law). Therefore, the best way I think to deal with it is to doubt every sign UNLESS it meets the size/placement requirements. This is my way of dealing with the issue; not a suggestion as to how you personally should view it...

    Taxwhat mentioned the Detroit Zoo which in my opinion is NOT an entertainment facility. A BS way by the Detroit Zoo to TRY to create a criminal empowerment zone where one does not exist.
    see Mich. AG Opinion 7120
    http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/da...0s/op10195.htm

    Why not OC "unobtrusively" and stay legal?
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    I highly doubt Celebration will allow even OC as they have been blacklisted on MCRGO as anti's. But if someone else wants to be the guinea pig, by all means. I'd love to come and watch the aftermath of you walking in there. PM me before you go. I'm 5 mins away and I'll meet you there

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    My brother was asked to put his gun in the vehicle at the Rivertown Crossing location... He was with 16 other people and they all walked out .... Celebration lost about 300 bucks that day alone bc of their position on guns...

    I tend to not go to the big theaters. I rather go to the small theaters and give them the business.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    If the movie s*cks, would that also invalidate the entertainment clause?
    You don't know it is entertainment till after the show.
    Are the tickets good to get in all the rooms? If you can't enter all the
    screens then the seating capacity would be the one theater screening room
    would it not, plus any lobby seats maybe.

    The hours are bad, but we have a stimulus tuesday showing down here that
    has drinks and popcorn for a dollar. Still prefer netflix, but till they release
    the 3d versions I'll see 2 a year maybe.

    Now if they only would make a butter that wouldn't react with the slide grease.
    I hate eating popcorn left handed, when I would rather grope my date with it.:celebrate
    OMG, I dread a good moral clause on permit apps....

    Best laugh I ever had at a movie, was when a little kid a couple rows in front yells...
    "Girl get your hand out of his pants!" Man I split my sides laughing.
    That was entertainment.


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    isn't there some debate about whether a cinema that has several theaters (screens), none of which hold more than a couple hundred people actually qualifies as an entertainment facility that holds over 2,500?

    as i understand it (and my understanding is often flawed) there is no case law on this particular issue.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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    Put it this way. It's really simple I dont think this has to be really complicated. This is the way I handle it I dont speak for anyone else. If there is a sign stated like in the law I dont bring it in. If there isnt a sign and I have no way of knowing the capasity I will either open carry or conceal carry. That's it. Nothing more to it then that. I dont feelit needs to be anymore complicated then that.

    As for the zoo there is no stated capasity so I conceal carry as not to rock the boat with the posted over zelous lamer rent a cops in there. No need to make an incident and not be able to see their great repitle exhibit or ruin it for the whole family.


    Mike


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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    autosurgeon wrote:
    My brother was asked to put his gun in the vehicle at the Rivertown Crossing location... He was with 16 other people and they all walked out .... Celebration lost about 300 bucks that day alone bc of their position on guns...

    I tend to not go to the big theaters. I rather go to the small theaters and give them the business.
    Interesting... I OC there about once every 6 months so... I've OC'd approximately 3-4 times at the Rivertown Crossings location. I don't doubt your brother's experience, though. I went from cc to oc each time before I went in because the mall itself doesn't like firearms worn openly.

    All Celebration Cinemas are owned by Jack Loeks... the person who also owned Studio 28 which I mentioned above. I haven't seen any signs at the Rivertown Crossings location, so your brother must have been noticed by "someone who cares" (sarcasm).
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  23. #23
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    DrTodd wrote:
    autosurgeon wrote:
    My brother was asked to put his gun in the vehicle at the Rivertown Crossing location... He was with 16 other people and they all walked out .... Celebration lost about 300 bucks that day alone bc of their position on guns...

    I tend to not go to the big theaters. I rather go to the small theaters and give them the business.
    Interesting... I OC there about once every 6 months so... I've OC'd approximately 3-4 times at the Rivertown Crossings location. I don't doubt your brother's experience, though. I went from cc to oc each time before I went in because the mall itself doesn't like firearms worn openly.

    All Celebration Cinemas are owned by Jack Loeks... the person who also owned Studio 28 which I mentioned above. I haven't seen any signs at the Rivertown Crossings location, so your brother must have been noticed by "someone who cares" (sarcasm).
    Yeah he was noticed by a fat little man with a manager name badge on... the fellow was very nasty and my brother did send a letter to John Loeks and complain... I will have to ask if he has gotten a response....

    He was dressed up as it was a Sunday afternoon... so I know he looked presentable...


    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  24. #24
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    autosurgeon wrote:
    DrTodd wrote:
    autosurgeon wrote:
    My brother was asked to put his gun in the vehicle at the Rivertown Crossing location... He was with 16 other people and they all walked out .... Celebration lost about 300 bucks that day alone bc of their position on guns...

    I tend to not go to the big theaters. I rather go to the small theaters and give them the business.
    Interesting... I OC there about once every 6 months so... I've OC'd approximately 3-4 times at the Rivertown Crossings location. I don't doubt your brother's experience, though. I went from cc to oc each time before I went in because the mall itself doesn't like firearms worn openly.

    All Celebration Cinemas are owned by Jack Loeks... the person who also owned Studio 28 which I mentioned above. I haven't seen any signs at the Rivertown Crossings location, so your brother must have been noticed by "someone who cares" (sarcasm).
    Yeah he was noticed by a fat little man with a manager name badge on... the fellow was very nasty and my brother did send a letter to John Loeks and complain... I will have to ask if he has gotten a response....

    He was dressed up as it was a Sunday afternoon... so I know he looked presentable...

    He likely stood out as this theater's clientele is typically 14-16 years old and dressed VERY casually. Being in a suit and or tie would probably be noticed. Well, then there is the issue of THE FIREARM .
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  25. #25
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    I think he had a shirt and tie and tan slacks... or something like that.. i was with him earlier in the day...

    You are right... the whole bunch of them most likely stood out!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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