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Clarification - seating capacity

sevenplusone

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Apr 11, 2009
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Kent Co, Michigan, USA
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The back of my Kent County CPL says I can't carry a concealed pistol in an entertainment facility seating more than 2500 persons (wording on the license). However, I believe the actual law says 2500 persons or more. Who do I contact to get clarification and/or complain if my card is misleading. This wouldn't be an issue except that my favorite movie theater has a 2500 person sign on the door. Seems to me Kent County is screwing this one up big time and could have gotten me into a lot of trouble because of the wording on the license they issue me.

:banghead:

This isn't a place where I will open-carry as my wife would not be pleased if I couldn't return there.
 

T Vance

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Not on this website, USA
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taxwhat wrote:
T Vance wrote:
I would just assume it means 2500 AND more. If she does not want you to OC there, and you feel you must go, then don't take your gun.
Do you Know the definition of assume ?
Yep, but what is difference is 1 person going to make? As long as you lean towards the way I worded it, and not the other.
 

mastiff69

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Kalamazoo, Michigan, United States
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Ah rent a movie, and stay home save your fuel and the environment, this way they get to keep their empty theaters, you get to keep the extra money that you saved, and take your other half out for dinner. Or something like that on the saved theater money......DING:celebrate

This is just a opinion , not intended to get one in trouble with the other half:D:lol:
 

sevenplusone

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For clarification I'm not so much worried about whether or not I can carry there as I am about the fact the at the license itself is wrong about how/when/where I carry. Kent County is essentially misleading all of the persons who carry a CPL. It just happens to come up because of this one specific place that I frequent.
 

DrTodd

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I believe that the state of Michigan designed the cpl card, not the individual county that issues the cpl.

Which theater has the sign posted? The only one I knew of in the GR area was Studio 28; now out of business. The one I go to has no sign posted.


If you look at the law, there are some requirements:
1. The letters have to be not-less than 1 inch high;
2. The sign needs to be above every public entrance.

The signs I have seen often fail in one of these regards.


MCL28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
<snip>
(f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.


 

autosurgeon

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Lawrence, Michigan, United States
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For instance at the theater in Portage the sign is between the doors on a wide expanse of glass ... I only noticed it BC I was wandering around waiting for someone....

From the doors you cannot see it... and it is not above the doors or even on them.

So in my opinion it does not conform with the law and cannot be enforced...

NOTE I am not a lawyer!
 

mikestilly

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Macomb County, Michigan, USA
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I feel DrTodd said this one best. If it doesnt meet the below criteria I would not worry about it. This is what I use to gauge weather I'm going to or not.

If you look at the law, there are some requirements:
1. The letters have to be not-less than 1 inch high;
2. The sign needs to be above every public entrance.

The signs I have seen often fail in one of these regards.


MCL28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
<snip>
(f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.
 

zigziggityzoo

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Nov 28, 2008
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Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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mikestilly wrote:
I feel DrTodd said this one best. If it doesnt meet the below criteria I would not worry about it. This is what I use to gauge weather I'm going to or not.

If you look at the law, there are some requirements:
1. The letters have to be not-less than 1 inch high;
2. The sign needs to be above every public entrance.

The signs I have seen often fail in one of these regards.


MCL28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
<snip>
(f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

If it can be proven that you reasonably should have known that the entertainment facility could seat more than 2500, then you're screwed.

Careful out there.
 

taxwhat

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S E Michgan all mine, Michigan, USA
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zigziggityzoo wrote:
mikestilly wrote:
I feel DrTodd said this one best. If it doesnt meet the below criteria I would not worry about it. This is what I use to gauge weather I'm going to or not.

If you look at the law, there are some requirements:
1. The letters have to be not-less than 1 inch high;
2. The sign needs to be above every public entrance.

The signs I have seen often fail in one of these regards.


MCL28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
<snip>
(f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

If it can be proven that you reasonably should have known that the entertainment facility could seat more than 2500, then you're screwed.

Careful out there.
Remember Detriot Zoo ?
 

blairellis

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Joined
May 11, 2009
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41
Location
Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
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sevenplusone wrote:
It was at the Celebration Cinema North on the E Beltline.
Used to go there alot before their prices got WELL out of hand.

Those are in such a light color that I've missed it in most of the times I've gone in there. But they are there, you are right.

I noticed it after I started carrying :)
 

DrTodd

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Jun 20, 2008
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Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
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I looked up the seating capacity for Celebration Cinema (North) and the (unverified) seating capacity appears to be 3500; I hesitated posting it. BUT since you "know" that it meets the "2500+" requirement, then I guess me posting it here doesn't hurt your carrying ability.

Zig is correct... be careful. I am aware of two places in this state that post a seating capacity of 2500+, even though they actually have an actual seating capacity of slightly less. Since they are not posted as required by law and have an actual seating capacity of less than 2500, I ignore the signs. The way the law is written, either the posting or the actual seating capacity could cause the facility to be a "no concealed zone" (depending on how the judge/jury decides to read the law). Therefore, the best way I think to deal with it is to doubt every sign UNLESS it meets the size/placement requirements. This is my way of dealing with the issue; not a suggestion as to how you personally should view it...

Taxwhat mentioned the Detroit Zoo which in my opinion is NOT an entertainment facility. A BS way by the Detroit Zoo to TRY to create a criminal empowerment zone where one does not exist.
see Mich. AG Opinion 7120
http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/2000s/op10195.htm

Why not OC "unobtrusively" and stay legal?
 

blairellis

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May 11, 2009
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Location
Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
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I highly doubt Celebration will allow even OC as they have been blacklisted on MCRGO as anti's. But if someone else wants to be the guinea pig, by all means. I'd love to come and watch the aftermath of you walking in there. PM me before you go. I'm 5 mins away and I'll meet you there :D
 

autosurgeon

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Sep 29, 2008
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Lawrence, Michigan, United States
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My brother was asked to put his gun in the vehicle at the Rivertown Crossing location... He was with 16 other people and they all walked out .... Celebration lost about 300 bucks that day alone bc of their position on guns...

I tend to not go to the big theaters. I rather go to the small theaters and give them the business.
 

SlackwareRobert

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Jun 10, 2008
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1,338
Location
Alabama, ,
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If the movie s*cks, would that also invalidate the entertainment clause?
You don't know it is entertainment till after the show.
Are the tickets good to get in all the rooms? If you can't enter all the
screens then the seating capacity would be the one theater screening room
would it not, plus any lobby seats maybe.

The hours are bad, but we have a stimulus tuesday showing down here that
has drinks and popcorn for a dollar. Still prefer netflix, but till they release
the 3d versions I'll see 2 a year maybe.

Now if they only would make a butter that wouldn't react with the slide grease.
I hate eating popcorn left handed, when I would rather grope my date with it.:celebrate
OMG, I dread a good moral clause on permit apps....:cool:

Best laugh I ever had at a movie, was when a little kid a couple rows in front yells...
"Girl get your hand out of his pants!" Man I split my sides laughing.
That was entertainment.
 

lapeer20m

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Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
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Location
Near Lapeer (Hadley), Michigan, USA
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isn't there some debate about whether a cinema that has several theaters (screens), none of which hold more than a couple hundred people actually qualifies as an entertainment facility that holds over 2,500?

as i understand it (and my understanding is often flawed) there is no case law on this particular issue.
 
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