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Thread: Quick Virginia private sale question

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    I brought one of my handguns to sell at the VA Beach gun show today. A gentleman wanted to purchase it, and showed me a VA non-resident CHP, a validFlorida Drivers License, and a Blue (retired?) Military ID.

    I didn't think I could sell it to him (I thought it was VA resident to VA resident), so I told him I'd have to check and see if it was legal first. Is this ok to do? I'm pretty sure active duty military is good to go, but wasn't sure about retired. I just want to make sure everything is legal as a beagle. Thanks.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    I wouldn't!

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    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
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    Gotta be a VA resident, otherwise it has to be transferred through an FFL in his home state. Retired military don't get the exception since he doesn't have current orders.

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    zoom6zoom wrote:
    Gotta be a* VA resident, otherwise it has to be transferred through an FFL in his home state.* Retired military don't get the exception since he doesn't have current orders.
    Correct. Though a person may be a resident of more than one state for BATFE transfer purposes (not for voter registration or DMV purposes). The condition is that one has to actually be residing in the state in which he's purchasing the gun at the time of purchase.

    There are normally two forms of identification required for a transfer via an FFL, and I'd suggest at least looking at both kinds for a private transfer as well. One of these must identify the person, and it doesn't matter what address is on that one, or even what state it references. The other one must show that the person is presently a resident of the state. So a Florida driver's license coupled with a gas/electric bill addressed to the same person at a residence in Fairfax, for example, would be sufficient. With a Va. issued operator's license, showing residence in Va., you don't need two - one piece may satisfy both requirements.

    You can use my standard bill of sale form if you like:
    http://dlhawes@virginialegaldefense....ransferBOS.pdf
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    When in doubt always retreat.

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    richarcm wrote:
    When in doubt always retreat.*
    Wise counsel, however, the prosecution will have to present evidence that you actually knew or should have known that the purchaser was ineligible; not merely that he was in fact ineligible.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    user wrote:
    richarcm wrote:
    When in doubt always retreat.
    Wise counsel, however, the prosecution will have to present evidence that you actually knew or should have known that the purchaser was ineligible; not merely that he was in fact ineligible.
    Not doubting your point, but I believe most of us here are far more concerned with the latter than we are with the former... And that is the way it should be!

    TFred

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Hope you didn't do it. Sounds like a set-up to me. Like User said, unless he has proof that he's a VA RESIDENT, you shouldn't sell it. None of that stuff he showed you prove he was a resident. In fact, the NON-RESIDENT CHP should have been a dead give-away. If he became a VA resident, he should have had a new one showing his VA address.

    Could this have been an attempted sting operation? Maybe. Friends of Bloomie? Maybe.

    Better safe than sorry...
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    Hope you didn't do it. Sounds like a set-up to me. Like User said, unless he has proof that he's a VA RESIDENT, you shouldn't sell it. None of that stuff he showed you prove he was a resident. In fact, the NON-RESIDENT CHP should have been a dead give-away. If he became a VA resident, he should have had a new one showing his VA address.

    Could this have been an attempted sting operation? Maybe. Friends of Bloomie? Maybe.

    Better safe than sorry...
    From what I recall, it's not necessary to update the address on your CHP, correct?

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    user wrote:
    richarcm wrote:
    When in doubt always retreat.*
    Wise counsel, however, the prosecution will have to present evidence that you actually knew or should have known that the purchaser was ineligible; not merely that he was in fact ineligible.
    If the prosecutor charges then you've already lost. There's just different degrees of losing. Better to avoid situation entirely.

    The better part of valor is discretion.

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    user wrote:
    There are normally two forms of identification required for a transfer via an FFL
    Not a federal standard.

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    mercutio545 wrote:
    I brought one of my handguns to sell at the VA Beach gun show today. A gentleman wanted to purchase it, and showed me a VA non-resident CHP, a validFlorida Drivers License, and a Blue (retired?) Military ID.
    Why did he show these ID except to entrap you?

    perhaps the IDs showed a VA address? For most of my life my PA DL showed a non-PA address

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    Fenris wrote:
    If the prosecutor charges then you've already lost. There's just different degrees of losing. Better to avoid situation entirely.
    QFT



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    I definitely didn't complete the sale. I was almost 100% sure that it wasn't ok, but I just wanted to check to verify that I was right. If the person wanted to purchase a firearm through a private sale so badly, they should have just gotten a VA Drivers License. Thanks for the replies.

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    Rules, rules, rules. What makes a person who lives in a state that they can legally own XXXXXXXXX firearm in unqualified to buy it in another state?

    Must be a tax issue. :?

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    Wangmuf wrote:
    Rules, rules, rules. What makes a person who lives in a state that they can legally own XXXXXXXXX firearm in unqualified to buy it in another state?

    Must be a tax issue. :?
    like it or not, it's the law, and we have to follow it until we can change it back to how it should be...

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    nova wrote:
    Wangmuf wrote:
    Rules, rules, rules. What makes a person who lives in a state that they can legally own XXXXXXXXX firearm in unqualified to buy it in another state?

    Must be a tax issue. :?
    like it or not, it's the law, and we have to follow it until we can change it back to how it should be...
    I know, but there are a lot of laws that are just nonsensical. I can't have sex in any position other than missionary, what?



    Edit: Not that I condone breaking the law (other than that lame sex one I mentioned in this post), but how would it ever be found out that the law preventing out of state sales was broken unless the buyer was a narc, if there's no receipt? "But our database shows that you were the original purchaser of the firearm!" "Oh, that database that I'm not supposed to be a part of? Cool. lawsuit."

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    Wangmuf wrote:
    ... but how would it ever be found out that the law preventing out of state sales was broken unless the buyer was a narc, if there's no receipt? "But our database shows that you were the original purchaser of the firearm!" "Oh, that database that I'm not supposed to be a part of? Cool. lawsuit."
    I suggest again the use of the form I developed. There are several reasons why I like it.

    First, only the buyer and the seller have copies of it; it's not public record.

    Secondly, the purchaser can use it to establish the date of purchase and value of the gun to prove he actually had it in case of loss (e.g., for an insurance claim), and to establish his innocence if the gun had been used in a crime prior to his acquisition of it. He can also show that he bought it in good faith for value from a person who swore under oath that he was the rightful owner (a bona fide purchaser for value receives good title, even if the seller lacked good title).

    The seller can use it to establish that he sold it to a person who swore under oath that he was eligible to be in possession of a gun, and that the seller's not guilty of whatever crime the purchaser used the gun to commit.

    http://dlhawes@virginialegaldefense....ransferBOS.pdf
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Wangmuf wrote:
    nova wrote:
    Wangmuf wrote:
    Rules, rules, rules. What makes a person who lives in a state that they can legally own XXXXXXXXX firearm in unqualified to buy it in another state?

    Must be a tax issue. :?
    like it or not, it's the law, and we have to follow it until we can change it back to how it should be...
    I know, but there are a lot of laws that are just nonsensical. I can't have sex in any position other than missionary, what?



    Edit: Not that I condone breaking the law (other than that lame sex one I mentioned in this post), but how would it ever be found out that the law preventing out of state sales was broken unless the buyer was a narc, if there's no receipt? "But our database shows that you were the original purchaser of the firearm!" "Oh, that database that I'm not supposed to be a part of? Cool. lawsuit."
    I'm not a believer in private sales ID. I but a gun or o a month and I simply won't show ID. It's not required and if the seller insists, which he ha a perfect right to, he can find another buyer. If asked, I simply tell him I have no legal restrictions prohibiting my buying the gun.

    That said, in your case, where the seller showed ID or even if he had just told you verbally that he was not a resident, I'd have walked away from the sale ASAP.

    In other words, don't break the law but don't require things that aren't required either.

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    I've thought about this at some length, and I've decided that the seller should go ahead with the sale. It is not unlawful to sell to a nonresident, after all. What's illegal is the transfer of possession of the firearm to a nonresident. So the thing to do is to get the money first, then ask him what FFL in his home state he wants the gun shipped to.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Wangmuf wrote:
    nova wrote:
    Wangmuf wrote:
    Rules, rules, rules. What makes a person who lives in a state that they can legally own XXXXXXXXX firearm in unqualified to buy it in another state?

    Must be a tax issue. :?
    like it or not, it's the law, and we have to follow it until we can change it back to how it should be...
    I know, but there are a lot of laws that are just nonsensical. I can't have sex in any position other than missionary, what?
    Yeah I know about that whacky law too, the difference is, one is a federal law that will buy you many years in prison with a very hefty fine, with federal agents actively conducting stings on gun owners and gun dealers. The sex thing is state law, and last I heard we didn't have state law enforcement conducting operations to try and catch people doing naughty stuff in the bedroom


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    nova wrote:
    Wangmuf wrote:
    nova wrote:
    Wangmuf wrote:
    Rules, rules, rules. What makes a person who lives in a state that they can legally own XXXXXXXXX firearm in unqualified to buy it in another state?

    Must be a tax issue. :?
    like it or not, it's the law, and we have to follow it until we can change it back to how it should be...
    I know, but there are a lot of laws that are just nonsensical. I can't have sex in any position other than missionary, what?
    Yeah I know about that whacky law too, the difference is, one is a federal law that will buy you many years in prison with a very hefty fine, with federal agents actively conducting stings on gun owners and gun dealers. The sex thing is state law, and last I heard we didn't have state law enforcement conducting operations to try and catch people doing naughty stuff in the bedroom
    AS to the one thing, it's a matter of Congress' power to regulate interstate commerce. As long as what they're doing really is regulation of interstate commerce, there's no limit to that power.

    As to the other, try using your search engine on the phrase, Bowers v. Hardwick. This case was, as to some issues, overruled in Lawrence v. Texas, but not as to the "we gotcha being naughty in your bedroom" issue. And as a matter of my own personal opinion, Lawrence is wrong, because it attempts to make state governments the same kind of entities as the federal and to apply the same kinds of rules in both cases, while the Constitution clearly sets up a system with two entirely different kinds of governments with different powers. Lawrence ignores the fact that the states have plenary power to regulate morals and morality; furthermore, if Lawrence be correct, then it's ok to do heroin or cocaine in the privacy of your bedroom. Anyway, as I said, Lawrence did not overrule the search and seizure logic of Hardwick. (You have to appreciate the defendant's name in light of the offense charged. No one could have made up a case like that. Only in real life.)
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    user wrote:
    ...the Constitution clearly sets up a system with two entirely different kinds of governments with different powers. Lawrence ignores the fact that the states have plenary power to regulate morals and morality;
    That's a strained interpretation from a Jeffersonian anti-federalist perspective.

    user wrote:
    furthermore, if Lawrence be correct, then it's ok to do heroin or cocaine in the privacy of your bedroom.
    Sounds about right.

    Thomas Jefferson wrote:
    The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
    Now, before you get all "states' rights"y with the twisted, revisionist view of anti-federalism, keep in mind that in-context Jefferson was referring to the state government (you know, Virginia), and not the federal one.

    The intent was not to trade a foreign tyrant for a local one, IMO. And that's exactly what your "plenary power to regulate morals and morality" is code for; otherwise it's redundant. The common law has already established a system of regulation with regards to actual harm (i.e. aggression) of the kind which, in Jeffersonian anti-federalism, is the only legitimate object of government regulation.

    Your "regulating morality" in the bedroom (how people have sex, whether they take drugs, in the privacy of their own bedroom, dammit) does not qualify. There is no direct harm of any sort.

    It is literally no different from the insane but ultimately harmless worshipping of thousands of deities. The "harm" you will no doubt attribute to it is no more provable, direct, tangible or even real than the supposed "harm" caused by the "destruction of morality" imaginarily resulting from the change in religious attitudes which occurred during the 18th century, and which was argued to create the need for "regulation of morality" in the form of state-mandated religion. Your views are like deja vu all over again.

    For Pete's sake, don't you read any history that isn't law?

    And yes, such arguments do make me just a little irate.

  24. #24
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    Yes, but the question I was addressing was the power of state governments under the federal Constitution. You may recall that the Bill of Rights was copied from Virginia's Constitution. What the people of each state want to, or ought to, put in their own constitutions is a different matter.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    I understand your position perfectly, and I deny vehemently that states have carte blanche to plenarily regulate "morality" and pretend that "the legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others" somehow doesn't apply to the states.

    Or, rather, as Jefferson understood, they as a matter of reality do and must have that carte blanche, but as a matter of right and principle ought not exercise it, limiting the use of their power to "such acts only as are injurious to others".

    There will always be a power capable of "regulating morality", as long as there is government. Better, then, that that power be in the hands of the people.

    None of that justifies or argues in favor of that power ever being exercised, however. That the power exists necessitates its being held somewhere. However, as with the power to murder, which we all hold as a practical matter, it is rightly never to be exercised. (A libertarian would point out that to exercise it necessarily entails aggression, as with murder.)

    Quite the contrary, as long as I don't hurt anybody when I snort cocaine and smoke heroin in my bedroom (hypothetically, of course), your legitimate powers do not extend to that act, whether they are powers gleaned through a State or Federal government.

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