I OpenCarried today in front of 30+ cops

While still noting the US Flag Code doesn't apply to private citizens

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Could you please cite in the flag code where it says it does not apply to citizens? And what are "private citizens?" Is that term in anyway different than "citizens?"



I am aware Flag Code is not enforced by police and taking a dump on the flag is protected under the Bill of Rights, but I need to know where you got this idea that it doesn't apply to citizens.

I tend to agree with the milkshake. If it looks like a flag, red and white stripes with white stars on a square blue field, then it really is the flag or a close representation of it. That's why bunting was invented. So one could decorate a room or even his person with the colors. Just like Uncle Sam does. Of course I'm not sure what photo of Ed is at issue here either.....

I found this collection of old Uncle Sam posters; http://www.sonofthesouth.net/uncle-sam/uncle-sam-pictures.htm

I'm not exactly sure where the line is between bunting and flag.....

And Wylde007, I agree. "They", have been trying to kill this country since it started. The first big hit was 150 years ago but it really got a head of steam in the 30's with another big boost in the 60's..... We have been ignoring the Constitution for a long time. I believe it can still be turned around but it ain't gonna happen overnight.

Schlitz said:

Could you please cite in the flag code where it says it does not apply to citizens? And what are "private citizens?" Is that term in anyway different than "citizens?"



I am aware Flag Code is not enforced by police and taking a dump on the flag is protected under the Bill of Rights, but I need to know where you got this idea that it doesn't apply to citizens.

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The flag code states no such thing, however through both Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. 397 (1989) & United States v. Eichman, 496 U.S. 310 (1990) the Supreme Court has ruled that punitive enforcement of the Flag Code on individual citizens would constitute a breach of the First Amendment.

Judge Brennan (Texas v. Johnson said:

We do not consecrate the flag by punishing its desecration, for in doing so we dilute the freedom that this cherished emblem represents.

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Judge Brennan (United States v. Eichman said:

Government may create national symbols, promote them, and encourage their respectful treatment. 9 But the Flag Protection Act of 1989 goes well beyond this by criminally proscribing expressive conduct because of its likely communicative impact.

We are aware that desecration of the flag is deeply offensive to many. But the same might be said, for example, of virulent ethnic and religious epithets, see Terminiello v. Chicago, 337 U.S. 1 (1949), vulgar repudiations of the draft, see [496 U.S. 310, 319] Cohen v. California, 403 U.S. 15 (1971), and scurrilous caricatures, see Hustler Magazine, Inc. v. Falwell, 485 U.S. 46 (1988). "If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the Government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable." Johnson, supra, at 414. Punishing desecration of the flag dilutes the very freedom that makes this emblem so revered, and worth revering.

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wylde007 said:

What this country was founded on died 150 years ago.

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what would that be?

SovereignAxe said:

what would that be?

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I take it you're not from these parts :^).

Would some say advocating for disrespect of the U.S. Flag is against forum rules?

"(15) WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here."

"illegal acts of ANY KIND" < Though the U.S. Flag Code punishments are not enforceable and are seen by some as unconstitutional, it is indeed law.

INTERNET WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol

As previously stated, the Supreme Court has ruled acts regarding desecration or mutilation may be expressive and therefore protected under the Constitution making them LEGAL acts. As such legal acts are deemed legal by the Supreme Court and nullifies the US Flag code's authority regarding such acts. So the US Flag Code may be law but the Supreme Court's decision causes many of the acts listed within the US Flag Code to be null and void and therefore they are not illegal acts.

As a serving member of our military I do not advocate any disrespect toward our nation's flag, however, I do respect one's right to display or act upon the flag as they wish.

Schlitz said:

Would some say advocating for disrespect of the U.S. Flag is against forum rules?

"(15) WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here."

"illegal acts of ANY KIND" < Though the U.S. Flag Code punishments are not enforceable and are seen by some as unconstitutional, it is indeed law.

INTERNET WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol

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Sorry The SCOTUS has ruled the law as unconstitutional, therefore the law is null and void. I suppose you feel a law that violates the constitution is legal, thereby disrespecting the constitution that when I took my oath I swore to uphold.

Since the law is null and void it is not a violation and this veteran sees wearing the colors as a tribute to the flag and country.

cyras21 said:

As a Marine who believes in what this country was founded on I say do whatever you see fit with the American flag. It your right. While I respect and fly it proudly day and night (yes it's lit) you may display it as you see fit no matter how despicable I or you may think it is.

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+1

I also don't think it is disrespectful to wear the stars and stripes in the spirit it was worn in. I will however take great umbrage if you drag her (the Flag of the US) in the dirt, fly her at half mast on any but Memorial day (or other legally authorized day), fly her unlit at night. Clean her and treat her with respect. Wear her likeness (a shirt is a likeness not a flag) with respect and I'm ok with it.


http://www.legion.org/flag/code

Notes:
1) The Flag Code is simply a guideline for proper flag etiquette. The law does not provide penalties for violation of any of its provisions.

2) There are no provisions of the Flag Code, which prohibit the washing or dry-cleaning of the flag. The decision to wash or dry-clean would of course depend upon the type of material.

3) The gesture of placing the flag at half-staff means that the Nation or the state mourns the death of a highly regarded National or state figure, hence only the President of the United States or the Governor of the state may order the Flag to be half-staffed in accordance with Flag Code section 7(m). Those individuals and agencies that usurp authority and display the flag at half-staff on inappropriate occasions are quickly eroding the honor and reverence accorded this solemn act. (The Mayor of DC is also accorded the honor)

4) Fringing of the flag is neither approved of nor prohibited by the Flag Code. The American Legion considers that fringe is used as an honorable enrichment to the Flag. Additionally the courts have deemed without merit and frivolous, lawsuits that contend that the gold fringe adorning the flag conferred Admiralty/Maritime jurisdiction.

5) On Flag Day, June 14, 1923, The American Legion and representatives of 68 other patriotic, fraternal, civic and military organizations met in Washington, DC for the purpose of drafting a code of flag etiquette. The 77th Congress adopted this codification of rules as public law on June 22, 1942. It is Title 4, United States Code Chapter 1.

more
http://www.legion.org/flag/faq

Schlitz said:

Though the U.S. Flag Code punishments are not enforceable and are seen by some as unconstitutional, it is indeed law.

INTERNET WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol

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Wolf_shadow said:

Sorry The SCOTUS has ruled the law as unconstitutional, therefore the law is null and void. I suppose you feel a law that violates the constitution is legal, thereby disrespecting the constitution that when I took my oath I swore to uphold.

Since the law is null and void it is not a violation and this veteran sees wearing the colors as a tribute to the flag and country.

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It has been my understanding the SCOTUS ruled that punishing someone for violating the flag code was unconstitutional. The Flag Code itself is not unconstitutional, the punishment is.

A better argument for justifying disrespecting the flag would be the language of the flag code. The word "should" is before just about sub section. I feel that's better than THE FLAG CODE MEANS NOTHING SINCE THERE IS NO TEETH TO IT.

(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel,

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And It does mean something still. Everyday at 1700 hours all the traffic stops on base, anyone walking stops and renders a salute, people who want to go the extra mile step out of the car just to salute. Those of us not in the car face the nearest flag (or the music if no flag is visible) and we render a salute.

Why? Why do we do this ? Why do this if the Flag Code is unconstitutional and pointless? Because we actually respect the flag in the military (most of us). We show our respect for this symbol by following the US Flag Code, a set of rules/guidelines written into law to standardize how we render respect to our flag.

And you can run and tell that....homeboy....

Schlitz said:

you would consider the words from a serviceman who serves under the flag, salutes the flag, and has buried brothers in arms draped in that flag.

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I thank you for your service. We just disagree on how I celebrate my patriotism wth my stars and stripes shirt.

Semper Fi

Dude. Don't you get it?

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

We get it. You don't like anyone using red white and blue colors for anything other than a properly flying flag.

You're entitled to your opinion. You've expressed your opinion. We've cordially noted your opinion. Move along.

TFred

I'm not defending my opinion...I was defending the US Flag Code, the Code that defines this and that when it comes to paying proper respects to the flag.

I don't really have too much of an opinion, the US Flag Code has set the standard on how the flag is to be treated. As an American citizen I honor that because I respect the flag and the men and woman who served under it.

It kind of blows my mind that people I thought to be patriots don't really give a rats rear end about the flag after being shown the right way.

Just because there is no punishment for disrespecting it, don't you have a "want" to do it right? Why do it wrong just because you can, yea sure you can, that is freedom, you have the freedom to be a d-bag if you want, but why? I don't get it?

Dude...don't YOU get it?

Schlitz said:

after being shown the right way.

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On this forum we are like minded people and we argue all day long on OC vs. CC on permits vs. no permits on what to do in certain situations and what not to do. On what and were to carry and what not too. You did not show ME the "right" way.. you showed ME the "Schlitz" way. And while I appreciate your effort in trying to "help" me.. i don't need your help. Thanks anyway.

Good job Ed and you looked good too, don't let the evil cartoon milkshake dude with the bent straw sticking out of it's head discourage you

ed said:

On this forum we are like minded people and we argue all day long on OC vs. CC on permits vs. no permits on what to do in certain situations and what not to do. On what and were to carry and what not too. You did not show ME the "right" way.. you showed ME the "Schlitz" way. And while I appreciate your effort in trying to "help" me.. i don't need your help. Thanks anyway.

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I wouldn't worry too much about it (obviously you aren't) these people have good intentions but mean to limit your freedom of expression and rights inherent to it. You are wearing a shirt that bears the likeness of my flag. More power too you. The flag code also states the dimensions of the flag and obviously the likeness you are wearing is not the same. If you took a flag from a flag pole and draped it over you or pinned it on it would be a flag, not the t-shirt you have on.

Perhaps we are missing the more important point at hand: It is one tacky shirt.

nuc65 said:

The flag code also states the dimensions of the flag and obviously the likeness you are wearing is not the same. If you took a flag from a flag pole and draped it over you or pinned it on it would be a flag, not the t-shirt you have on.

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I understand this argument when it comes to wearing the flag as a shirt/hat/etc. That's why I cited this.

Schlitz said:

One may argue that you have on a shirt, not a "flag." In case anyone does they can read section 3 of chapter 4.

US Code, Chapter 4

§ 3. Use of flag for advertising purposes; mutilation of flag

The words "flag, standard, colors, or ensign", as used herein, shall include any flag, standard, colors, ensign, or any picture or representation of either, or of any part or parts of either, made of any substance or represented on any substance, of any size evidently purporting to be either of said flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America or a picture or a representation of either, upon which shall be shown the colors, the stars and the stripes, in any number of either thereof, or of any part or parts of either, by which the average person seeing the same without deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag, colors, standard, or ensign of the United States of America.

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ed said:

You did not show ME the "right" way.. you showed ME the "Schlitz" way.

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Negative, Sir. There is no "Schlitz" way when it comes to handling the flag. If you guys have actually been reading what I'm posting I'm citing the source which I am defending. This is not my way, I did not write the US Flag Code and I had absolutely nothing to do with it being written in as law. This is the "right" way.

Wolf_shadow said:

Since the law is null and void it is not a violation and this veteran sees wearing the colors as a tribute to the flag and country.

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Howdy Wolf!
That's the crux of the flag debate right there. One I wonder why wasn't brought up sooner.
There is a huge difference between desecration or mutilation of the flag in a disrespectful manner,
from employing those proud images in tribute and honor. We should also remember that the flag is worn on the uniform of U.S. service people from every branch of the military. It is found on police uniforms, and those of federal law enforcement folks too. Usually as a patch worn on the sleeve, or a pin worn on the lapel, it is either as part of their clothing or an accessory to their clothing. Hence, the whole subject of clothing display of the flag becomes a rather moot point.

But we are drifting into a different topic from the original post. It was about carrying at an event held for a fallen soldier returning home to his final resting place. Whether an individual open carries or not, I personally don't feel it is really appropriate to use the sacrifice of our fallen heros as an opportunity to make any sort of political or ideological statement. The thread title was about OC'ing in front of 30 cops. So what? What consequence does OC'ing have in that particular event, other than the young man being taken to his rest gave his life to ensure that liberty? He made the supreme sacrifice for our nation, and we all owe a great debt of gratitude to each and every member of our armed forces. I would not think it appropriate to use that event to boast of OC'ing at the event. That wasn't the point of the event, and pointing to OC seems to take away from the solemnity the event deserved. Maybe that's precisely why the news people never mentioned it. I am not trying to be unkind, but just pointing out, whatever our goal, however right or noble in spirit, it does not match the nobility of the sacrifice of the young man who gave his life for his country, and anything taking light away from that brilliant son is diminishing the respect he deserved.

That's my opinion, and I know I'll likely get hammered for saying so, but it isn't about you or me, it is about the sacrifice of that young man.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin