Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 38

Thread: Have to say thank you...

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Norfolk, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,000

    Post imported post

    To all the guys here who have opened my eyes toward our rights.

    I was out shopping with a friend late yesterday afternoon. I was CCing as our friend is not quite ready to take the plunge of open carry quite yet. Working her up to it in baby steps. She does know that I carry pretty much all the time when I am out of the house.

    We stopped at the Walmart on Tidewater Drive. We got our shopping done. Made it through checkout. We head to the doors. The Store staffer asked for the receipt. I politely declined. The guy then demanded in a stronger/firmer voice "Sir, you have to let me see your receipt". I responded to the store stafferwith a more firm "No thank you." My friend looks at me and says I need to give him the receipt. I replied to her indicating I did not have to. The entire time I kept walkingthrough the door.

    We got outside and she was "Why didn't you give him the receipt? You have to." She did also have a baffled look on her face when she realized that they simply let us pass. That led to a discussion about rights, laws, and responsibilities. I also pointed out that if they could truly demand the receipt (with force of law behind them), they would have detained us for not providing it on demand. I pointed out that we were not detained in any way. I also pointed out that the items in the cart were our property, properly paid for. They have no legal reason / basis to demand they paw through our belongings at their convenience.

    At any rate, it made for an interesting conversation and she was certainly receptive to the idea of being a free person (long story behind this part).

    So I just wanted to thank you guys & gals for opening this one's eyes and giving me the necessary bits to do the same for another. Later this week, my wife & I are going to take our friend to the range for her first range visit.

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Live Free or Die, ,
    Posts
    140

    Post imported post

    Actually, I'm torn by this.

    On the one hand, I completely agree with you on this issue. Nothing pisses me off more than someone telling me they "must see my receipt" after I've properly purchased something. It's mine. I paid for it. And I especially don't like someone using some imagined "authority" to challenge my right to leave with my legally purchased property. I hate it, and I detest the automatic reaction of some sheeple to the idea. "Well, he told me he hasto look in my bag..."

    On the other hand, around here at least, the door "greeter" at Walmart is invariably a frail senior citizen, frequently with a physical handicap, doing what some pompous, self-important manager with a bad comb-over told them they must do, and I find it hard if not impossible to be forceful and curt with them. I cringe at the thought of some grandmother-type hobbling after me with a crutch. I usually end up showing my receipt while thinking, "Boy, if you were a snotty-nosed punk I'd just keep walking! Where are the snotty-nosed punks? Can we get a snotty-nosed punk over here, please!?"

    Guess I'm just a wuss.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Norfolk, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,000

    Post imported post

    In this case, it wasn't the door greeter.This was the entrance/exit by the checkout lanes toward the grocery end of the store.

    The few times I've bought stuff at Walmart and walked out past the door greeter, all they do is smile & nod.

    This time it was a store worker bee.

  4. #4
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705

    Post imported post

    That's why you always give a very nice smile along with your exceedingly polite "No Thank You" - without breaking stride...



    TFred


  5. #5
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705

    Post imported post

    TFred wrote:
    That's why you always give a very nice smile along with your exceedingly polite "No Thank You" - without breaking stride...

    And by the way... As often as I go into Walmart, (often), I have never been asked for a receipt. I have walked by the checkers, while other customers around me generally stop and hand them over (without being asked), but I have never actually been asked.

    This is one of my major pet peeves... especially at stores which require checking as a membership condition. There are often lines to leave from those stores. I usually only buy a handful of items (not a cart), and I have on occasion even skipped the line and walked on out. Only once was I called back, and you better believe I had some words for them to the effect of "I'm not getting paid to stand in line while you accuse me of shoplifting, if you want to check my receipt, then get enough people here to do it without me having to wait."

    It's a touchy subject with me...

    TFred


  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Newport News, VA
    Posts
    72

    Post imported post

    If I wasn't in a hurry, I would make them check every item against the receipt. Then make them replace any frozen items with new ones straight from the freezer. You could even "realize" that one of your items had a different price on the shelf and make them run do a price check for ya!
    "Rule 1: All Guns Are Always Loaded" - Jeff Cooper
    On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs - by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    US
    Posts
    3,156

    Post imported post

    I don't mean to be "that guy" but how is this related to OC/CC/gun rights/firearms?

    It's in the forum rules btw, I'm not just an ***.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Norfolk, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,000

    Post imported post

    nova wrote:
    I don't mean to be "that guy" but how is this related to OC/CC/gun rights/firearms?

    It's in the forum rules btw, I'm not just an ***.
    It's related IMO because it led to a rights discussion in her truck which went over firearms and related their VA laws. It was an opportunity to expand her horizons and to help instill a backbone in her. She's very much a person who will automatically bow down and scrape to anyone who appears to be in a position of authority. She doesn't question people.

    She was amazed that I could just walk past them like that. She questioned me on their ability to prevent shoplifting. I pointed out to her that we aren't allowed to bag our stuff there. Their cashiers do it. The cashier also checked to ensure the cart was empty before we started loading it with the bags. Thus, there was no reason to further inspect the cart.

    One thing I didn't ask her was if she would let them search her person, her vehicle, or her house if they asked to do so. I suspect she'd say no.

    One of the things we are trying to teach her is that Liberty & Freedom are just like your Time. Too many people take liberties with them at your expense and without recompense. Just like Time, it's very difficult to get them back once taken.

    But as with most discussions here, you cannot talk about firearms, OC, CC, and so forth WITHOUT a discussion of rights & responsibilities happening parallel to it.

    All my intention was to simply say thank you to the many members here for opening my eyes further; for enabling to see that which I had not previously. In short, the box in which I live got bigger, broader, more expansive.

    For the simple gift of knowledge, I will be eternally grateful.

  9. #9
    Regular Member glockfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    228

    Post imported post

    I think you should show your receipt and be nice...and conceal that weapon also.




  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682

    Post imported post

    glockfan wrote:
    I think you should show your receipt and be nice...and conceal that weapon also.



    SAY WHAT?!?

    It's bad enough that the goon at the door is all but accusing me of shoplifting, but to suggest on an Open Carry board that we conceal is ludicrous.

    If you were trying for sarcasm, you forgot your smiley. If not, you just lost several layers of respect.

    stay safe.

    skidmark

    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  11. #11
    Regular Member glockfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    228

    Post imported post



    Jesus Christ... those door people at Wal-Mart are sad ... I show the receipt

    Also... I've gotten burned a couple of times by going out with or right behind someone else who sets off the alarm so I try to go out alone


  12. #12
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705

    Post imported post

    glockfan wrote:


    ***** *****... those door people at Wal-Mart are sad ... I show the receipt

    Also... I've gotten burned a couple of times by going out with or right behind someone else who sets off the alarm so I try to go out alone
    I've never seen the alarm catch an actual shoplifter, it's always a false alarm because the person at the register did not properly deactivate the device.

    I don't stop for alarms either. I don't steal. If they want to chase me out into the parking lot and assault me, that's just a few months closer to retirement for me!

    TFred

  13. #13
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    Regarding false alarms and showing receipts, it occurs to me that plenty of this is just to create an illusion to discourage thieves.

    Which gives rise to the next idea:

    Reciept checker: "Sir, sir, SIR!! I need to see your receipt!"

    Me: "Oh, why certainly. (whispering now) I will be more than happy to help youmaintain the illusionto discourage thieves. It is going to cost you, though. I want agift certificate for$10."

    It seems to me we've discussed the whole alarm/receipt checking thingbefore on this forum; but, darned if I can remember where it settled with respect to the law. Seems to me there was some discussion and even conclusion that refusalto cooperate was considered RAS of shoplifting,supported bythe shopper's prior knowledge that he would be receipt-checked.Meaning if he disagreed, he could shop elsewhere.

    I just can't remember the details of the discussion.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  14. #14
    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    856

    Post imported post

    Having worked in Loss Prevention with a major retailer (who shall remain nameless), the alarms and receipt checks are mostly to discourage the casual shoplifter. It's unnecessary for the honest folks, and the professional (and semi-pro) thieves don't care, or they take steps to get around the anti-theft procedures.

    One side benefit of the receipt checks, at least for high-dollar items, is to ensure that the customer is getting what they paid for. It works as much in the customer's favor as the store's (beyond the "discouraging the amateurs" aspect). Even then, it would be unnecessary if the sales staff and/or cashiers were reliably competent.

    But Fred hit the nail on the head: if you choose to ignore the request or demand to see your receipt (unless they've personally witnessed you stealing, at which point the receipt check is unnecessary), the retailer has no recourse. If they physically detain you short of performing a citizen's arrest (after they've taken all the steps necessary to justify that action), they're breaking the law.

    ~ Boyd

  15. #15
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    TexasNative wrote:
    SNIP Having worked in Loss Prevention with a major retailer (who shall remain nameless), the alarms and receipt checks are mostly to discourage the casual shoplifter. It's unnecessary for the honest folks, and the professional (and semi-pro) thieves don't care, or they take steps to get around the anti-theft procedures.
    Thank you. I suspected as much.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    San Angelo, Texas, USA
    Posts
    301

    Post imported post

    Citizen wrote:
    Regarding false alarms and showing receipts, it occurs to me that plenty of this is just to create an illusion to discourage thieves.

    Which gives rise to the next idea:

    Reciept checker: "Sir, sir, SIR!! I need to see your receipt!"

    Me: "Oh, why certainly. (whispering now) I will be more than happy to help youmaintain the illusionto discourage thieves. It is going to cost you, though. I want agift certificate for$10."

    It seems to me we've discussed the whole alarm/receipt checking thingbefore on this forum; but, darned if I can remember where it settled with respect to the law. Seems to me there was some discussion and even conclusion that refusalto cooperate was considered RAS of shoplifting,supported bythe shopper's prior knowledge that he would be receipt-checked.Meaning if he disagreed, he could shop elsewhere.

    I just can't remember the details of the discussion.
    How is refusing to cooperate RAS for anything?

    How do they know the person has knowledge that they would be stopped? No signs and I for one have never been told I would need to show my receipt to leave. Sounds like they are trying to hold me hostage..

  17. #17
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    TexasNative wrote:
    SNIP...if you choose to ignore the request or demand to see your receipt (unless they've personally witnessed you stealing, at which point the receipt check is unnecessary), the retailer has no recourse. If they physically detain you short of performing a citizen's arrest (after they've taken all the steps necessary to justify that action), they're breaking the law.
    I sincerely have this vague recollection that refusal to show receipt or ignoringa post-alarm challenge from an employee is RAS in itself.

    I guess what we need is a court opinion one way or the other.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  18. #18
    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    856

    Post imported post

    Citizen wrote:
    I guess what we need is a court opinion one way or the other.
    Maybe, and I don't have definitive knowledge of the law as a layman. But I find it beyond belief that refusal to allow examination of a receipt would ever be considered RAS of theft, at least in Virginia.

    I suspect this is a misconception espoused by those that want to control others, similar to restaurant bartenders who, mistakenly or mendaciously, claim that it's illegal for minors to sit at a bar in Virginia, when they really just want to keep kids away from the bar so maybe they can get larger tips from an adult.

    ~ Boyd

  19. #19
    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    856

    Post imported post

    FYI, those of us in Loss Prevention were required to follow a rigorous series of steps before we were allowed to detain a customer. Among others, these steps included seeing the thief take the product from the shelf, seeing them conceal that product, and maintaining observation of the thief continuously until they made it apparent that they intend to leave without paying (reaching the alarm pillars without paying for the product they stole, regardless of whether or not they caused the alarm to sound).

    These requirements were undoubtedly based on a combination of both policy and law, but I'm pretty sure that if refusal to allow inspection of the receipt could be considered RAS of theft, the requirements for detention wouldn't have been nearly so strict.

    ~ Boyd

  20. #20
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    TexasNative wrote:
    SNIP...mendaciously...
    Dammit. Where's my dictionary?

    (Thanks for the rest of the report. Makes sense.)
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  21. #21
    Regular Member glockfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    228

    Post imported post

    I was at Burlington Coat Factory once in Richmond near the entrance as two HUGE black males walked out setting off the alarm...the 75 year old white haired female store employee there asked them to stop they didn't pay the slightest attention to her.

    There I was with my GLOCK watching this of course it wasn't my problem.

  22. #22
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705

    Post imported post

    Citizen wrote:
    It seems to me we've discussed the whole alarm/receipt checking thingbefore on this forum; but, darned if I can remember where it settled with respect to the law. Seems to me there was some discussion and even conclusion that refusalto cooperate was considered RAS of shoplifting,supported bythe shopper's prior knowledge that he would be receipt-checked.Meaning if he disagreed, he could shop elsewhere.
    Wow... yeah, I'm not asking you to go find what you are remembering, but I would be very interested in seeing a credible source for this beyond someone's "it's obvious that it should be this way" sort of speculation.

    This subject crops up once in a while on consumer related forums, and the best I've seen them do there is in the case of the big box warehouse stores where your membership contract says you agree to submit to a receipt check. And even there, all they can do if you refuse is revoke your membership and ask you to leave.

    TFred


  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    TFred wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    It seems to me we've discussed the whole alarm/receipt checking thingbefore on this forum; but, darned if I can remember where it settled with respect to the law. Seems to me there was some discussion and even conclusion that refusalto cooperate was considered RAS of shoplifting,supported bythe shopper's prior knowledge that he would be receipt-checked.Meaning if he disagreed, he could shop elsewhere.
    Wow... yeah, I'm not asking you to go find what you are remembering, but I would be very interested in seeing a credible source for this beyond someone's "it's obvious that it should be this way" sort of speculation.

    This subject crops up once in a while on consumer related forums, and the best I've seen them do there is in the case of the big box warehouse stores where your membership contract says you agree to submit to a receipt check. And even there, all they can do if you refuse is revoke your membership and ask you to leave.

    TFred
    The more I think about it, the more I think the earlier discussions lacked case cites.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    4 hours south of HankT, ,
    Posts
    5,121

    Post imported post

    My take on this is that since Walmart and other stores are owned by actual people, not the government, I am a guest in their stores. If they want to look at my receipt at the door, it's their perogative. It's just another check after the cashier rings me up.

    I know it's just for show, heck, these checkers rarely even read the receipt or look in the bag; they just go through the motions to keep honest people honest. They aren't "tracking" me or keeping a record of any kind. Usually they cannot do anything to you if you ignore them, but it's not my store so I play nice. I have no right to act the ass on someone else's property; if I don't like how they run their store I can shop somewhere else, which is my right.

    Now, if these were government employees overstepping their authority, then by all means I support you blowing them off with an air of contempt.

  25. #25
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705

    Post imported post

    Tomahawk wrote:
    My take on this is that since Walmart and other stores are owned by actual people, not the government, I am a guest in their stores. If they want to look at my receipt at the door, it's their perogative. It's just another check after the cashier rings me up.

    I know it's just for show, heck, these checkers rarely even read the receipt or look in the bag; they just go through the motions to keep honest people honest. They aren't "tracking" me or keeping a record of any kind. Usually they cannot do anything to you if you ignore them, but it's not my store so I play nice. I have no right to act the ass on someone else's property; if I don't like how they run their store I can shop somewhere else, which is my right.

    Now, if these were government employees overstepping their authority, then by all means I support you blowing them off with an air of contempt.
    The problem with your analogy is that you ignore what is really happening. If you were invited to someone's house for dinner or a holiday party (as much advertising as these stores do, you are being invited), and as you left they insisted on searching your personal belongings to ensure you didn't steal any silverware, do you really think you'd be OK with that?

    The only fact that has any bearing is that you own the stuff you just bought, and unless they have RAS that you have committed a crime, they cross the line when they ask to search you for stolen merchandise.

    There is no difference between walking out of a store, walking in front of your house on a sidewalk, sitting in your car at a stoplight, without RAS, nobody has the right to search your person.

    TFred


Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •