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Thread: Shooting at My Safeway

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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    Went for coffee this morning around 9:30 and the same manager from the other day grabbed me again and asked where Iv'e been.It turns out that about 5am a couple of gangbangers were in the back of the store doing a drug deal.They got into an argument and one started shooting.They ran out the south entrance toward the gas station shooting at each other.The manager said they found shell casings in the ice .I'm not sure if they caught them but I saw police in this morning taking a statement.One officer just gave me a nod as I walked by.

    She was nervous and said to me that these people don't ever seem todo this when you and your friends are around.As I was reading the paper there were these thug looking guys hasseling the gal at the courtesy counter .I started to get up and the manager said please don't leave yet untill these guys are gone.I sense she is stressed with what has been going on around here.

    So it seems that we need or I need some help here.Just hanging out by the coffee stand helps.Or another big Willow Lake style event to make it clear to these gangs around here that this crap isn't going to stand.These are the sort ofguys hiding illegal weapons under there baggy shirts etc.I guess I will alter my times I go for coffee.Maybe we should get the entire group like yesterday to come for coffee and donuts.

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    Regular Member j2l3's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, most of us can't be there frequently to make a visual impact. You cannot be there all the time. This poses a problem for the manager.

    Her reliance on you and other OCers is misplaced. Yes, while you are there, people tend to behave better, but you cannot be there all the time and the times of trouble are random it seems.

    We want to help, but that puts us in a bad situation. Safeway's insurance and legalteamare not going to back us if something happens in their store and we step in because we are not employees nor contracted to assist.

    If something happens and you (we) get involved and it goes bad,word will get out that we were asked to be there by the manager, her position would be pretty shakey as well.

    Her solution is going to be expensive. She needs to hire a reliable security team. If she wants armed security, she should contact the local police guild.

    As we discussed the other day, she also needs more cameras. For a facility the size she has, it is woefully under equipped for surveillance.
    CZ 75B 9mm, Ruger P94 .40 S&W, Bersa Thunder .380, AR-15 Homebuild

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    Yeah, j2l3 is right. It's one thing for an OC citizen to have an impact on preventing crime, it's another for us to be relied on for that (or more than that).

    However, I think it's very cool that she recognizes the benefits of openly armed, law-abiding citizens.

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    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
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    How about handing out CPL & open carry information to the employees and maybe find a class in defensive handgun tactics for them to visit.

    It is not worth a lawsuit... they can protect themselves if they choose to. We are not here to protect the rest of the world.

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    Regular Member j2l3's Avatar
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    That won't really solve the problem, though it is a good idea for their personal protection.

    While Safeway seems to respect self defense and open carry, I am pretty certain that their bean counters and senior management will not allow open carry by employees while on-duty.

    Open carry is what the manager wants in the store, to discourage the problems.
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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    I know all that as well.I don't know if they rely onus so to speak but she does feel comfortable when we are around.I agreewholeheartedly the need to up the anny in their own security.I know that is all impractical just the whole thing is frustrating because they have been really good to us.They have no one there during these times and remember when the bank was robbed.They hired an unarmed guard to sit in a chair next to the bank Yeah that would scare off a potential robbery..It just refries my beans that these people are still running around the neighborhood and don't give a crap whothey hurt.We talked about their cameras .They don't have the whole store covered and taking a picture after the fact only helps after a crime has been committed.

    She hasn't asked for us to be there nor do I they they depend on us or meshe has asked me on occasion not to leave yet or where were you.I also think they are frustrated as well as their hands are tied ..

    I hope never to have to get involved with anything there .But things like that affirm the prudence to carry in this neighborhood .For personal safety.They should in that store have an armed security at times.But then these companies don't want that image or liability either.

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    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
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    j2l3 wrote:
    That won't really solve the problem, though it is a good idea for their personal protection.

    While Safeway seems to respect self defense and open carry, I am pretty certain that their bean counters and senior management will not allow open carry by employees while on-duty.

    Open carry is what the manager wants in the store, to discourage the problems.
    Pass out cans of OC spray...:?

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    Regular Member killchain's Avatar
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    I vote for speaking with the manager about educating the employees on firearm safety, concealed weapons permits, and defensive pistol classes. She could request from higher up in her company that employees can carry a concealed pistol for safety concerns.

    Or, she could always hire you as loss prevention and let you open carry.
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -John Stuart Mill

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    Regular Member j2l3's Avatar
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    :shock: They can't afford me.....
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    Regular Member sempercarry's Avatar
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    swatspyder wrote:
    Pass out cans of OC spray...:?
    Open Carry spray???:P

  11. #11
    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    I is not our responsibility at all to protect the world so to speak.I think they know that.It is nice to know that they do respect open carry .Anyone that open carry's anywhere is a potential deterent for crime whether or not one even knows it.

    another example was the time I was getting my coffee as usual sometime before last Christmas.An elderly lady asked if I was police and I responded no.There had been reports of thugs attacking defensless folks in parking lots in the area.This lady said she tried to come in when she thought I would be there as she indicated she felt safe .At that point she asked me to escort her to her car.I couldn't say no.

    As we become more prominent and visibleand people learn we are not the bad guys they trust you.so some will feel a certain comfort level when we are around.I have been walking up there for cofee and shopping for almost 2 years now.I'm not going to change my routine.



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    Things may have changed, but most companies don't want their stores to have armed security. I worked as store security back in the 80s for a grocery store, which I believe was owned by the same company that now owns Safeway.

    They paid for us to go through firearms training, then decided that we couldn't carry. Seems that in one of the Chicago area store an off duty police officer that was carrying got into an out and out firefight with a couple of gangbangers who decided to rob the store. Over 50 rounds fired and all that (don't remember if anyone was shot). At that moment, the company decided that they didn't want the liability of having armed security.

    Some of you are not going to like what I'm about to say, but the facts are that crime happens because no one CAN do anything. Think about that. It doesn't matter if you want to do something about it or not, the facts are if you go to the Safeway and "defend it" (whatever that means), you're putting yourself out on a hell of a limb. If ANYTHING goes wrong - your fault, my fault, nobodies fault - you're going to pay a hell of a price - death, prison, damage to the OC movement, etc.

    Corporations have put their profits ahead of your safety and there really isn't anything you do about it. Sure, you can try to shop somewhere else, but where you going to go? QFC (probably) has the same policies, Tops are too few and far between - you get the picture. And the same people that are begging for your help now will be the same people threading the rope for you when something goes wrong.

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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    Not going there to defend it.I carry strictly to protect myself and those around me.I will also continue to hop there and to get my coffe there. I will continue to open carry there as I have done for the last 18 or so months .

    Just venting a frustration at these people whocontinue to get away with this crap.As someone mentioned the only thing you can do is be a good witness.If these punks are shooting each other I don't care.It cleans up the neighborhood.Would never dive into to protect one of them.I know what we can and cannot do.The only thing I can say is I would protect myself if shooting in a situation like that was directed towards me.Other than that observe and report.Was just looking for discussion on the incedent.

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    They should really outlaw drugs.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Mainsail wrote:
    They should really outlaw drugs.
    Hah!

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    Mainsail wrote:
    They should really outlaw drugs.
    The cut of your jib, I like it.

    Would be nice to get drugs away from the dealers and into something that has guarantees of purity, and a legal entity (company that is FDA or similarly regulated) that can be sued backing it.

    In 1933 we realized the failure and danger Prohibition caused the country. We learned that banning a substance merely drives it underground, with horrible consequences. Truly, we would never make the mistake of thinking we could ban a substance and have it be effective.

    In 1937, the Federal government banned marijuana.

    Oops
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    No we don't want an anything goes legalize everythingAmerica .It would be nice to start getting harsher with these dealers and suppiers.

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    DEROS72 wrote:
    No we don't want an anything goes legalize everythingAmerica .It would be nice to start getting harsher with these dealers and suppiers.
    Won't help. Harsher penalies = higher risk = higher prices = higher rewards = more dealers on the street to reap the higher rewards. Economics 101. Your "solution," literally, will make the problem worse. The more "solution" applied, the worse the problem will get. Economics 101.

    The quickest, easiest, and safest way to get drug dealers off the street would be to immediately legalize all drugs. Street thugs simply can't compete with legitimate businesses on price, quality, or safety. Just think about it: When is the last time you heard of someone buying alcohol from some shifty guy on the street? I know: It was being purchased by someone under 21, for whom prohibition still exists. Nobody legally able to purchase alcohol would take the risk of getting it from some shady character on the corner. They'd have to be out of their mind to do so. So legit business thrive, street gangs running booze/drugs die. Still econ 101.

    Same goes for prostitution. Gambling. Clove cigarettes.

    Yes, that's right, clove ******* cigarettes. The day after the FDA passed down the prohibition on cloves came down from the FDA, there was some guy on the street in downtown Seattle offering them out. Not just cloves, but a whole variety of flavors. A couple bucks a stick. Cigarettes cost about 0.25 a piece. Ban them and they go up to a couple bucks a piece. An 800% increase in price, overnight. An 800% increase in profit, over night. An 800% increase in the risk needed to deliver the product, overnight. An 800% increase in the violence needed to deliver the product, over the next few months. Hell, most people didn't even know about the ban yet. Thanks to the infinite wisdom of the federal government, before long, we're going to have kids shooting and killing each other over ******* cigarettes. Stupid stupid stupid.

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    Regular Member GreatWhiteLlama's Avatar
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    +1 Grishnav.

    It's amazing that some people still don't get that.

    But then again, it's vitally important that we restrict what someone can or can't do with his or her body.

    I mean, it wouldn't be a free country if we didn't :?
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    DEROS72 wrote:
    No we don't want an anything goes legalize everythingAmerica .It would be nice to start getting harsher with these dealers and suppiers.
    Because, as has been pointed out, that's worked so well thus far. Everything we've banned and the strict penalties we've enacted has totally removed the substances from our streets. In fact, because of the strict penalties, our jails are free of all but those criminal elements that directly and willingly bring harm upon another person.

    No, wait, the opposite is true. Jails are filled with nonviolent offenders who are caught by "tough on crime" laws. People across the country are still getting their drug of choice. Or, worse, certain crackdowns on the evil-drug-of-the-month cause their supplies to be temporarily short, so people turn to substitutes that are often worse (e.g. the rise of methamphetamine in the wake of cocaine crackdown).

    If insanity is doing the same thing over and over again yet expecting different results, I propose the idea of prohibition is insane. Those who prescribe to it are either delusional (they think it works), hypocritical (for they take other drugs, "legal" drugs - alcohol, caffeine, nicotine, vicodin, xanax, etc), or both.

    Think about it this way - you have incurable pain and a script for painkillers that are generally not available to the public. Your friend twists their ankle badly, and you give them one of your painkillers. Due to the laws getting "harsher with these dealers and suppiers [sic]," an officer overhearing your friend thanking you for helping them when they were in pain but could not afford the prescription nor the doctor visit to obtain it. The officer arrests both of you, and obtains a warrant for your house, where lots of bottles of various painkillers are found (as previously stated, intractable pain). You get charged for possession with intent to distribute (even though they were legally provided to you, the officer has evidence you have been illegally supplying the drugs to third parties), and are now facing a mandatory minimum sentence because the laws have been amped up. That scenario is not that far out, and you should be able to see it.

    I remind you of the 9th Amendment - "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." The right of the people to ingest whatever substances they like, provided they harm no others in doing so, should be considered a right of the people. Just because it's not explicitly called out as a right does not mean you should use its lack of enumeration as a right that should be denied.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    GreatWhiteLlama wrote:
    +1 Grishnav.

    It's amazing that some people still don't get that.
    Ditto, and ditto.



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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    So basically you guys believe a free country means everything should be legal and accepted..............Psuedo intellectuals .Tolerance is destoying this country.

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    DEROS72 wrote:
    So basically you guys believe a free country means everything should be legal and accepted..............Psuedo intellectuals .Tolerance is destoying this country.
    Care to defend your point with more than unbacked hyperbole? I put forth a pretty clear scenario, what are your thoughts? What makes those substances so "evil" they must be banned?
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Tolerance is different than acceptance. We're starting to draw a legal line between things that may be morally reprehensible and things that are ethically reprehensible, when there weren't necessarily distinctions 50 years ago.

    I was raised in a strictly anti-drug household, but I'm beginning to believe that some drugs aren't as bad as I was told. Things like meth, heroin, and cocaine are obviously psychotropic, highly addictive, and physically unhealthy, but the current reason they ruin lives (besides the overdoses and drugged-out behavior) is the financial destruction and fear of the consequences of getting help. Hemp isn't a drug and can't be used to make drugs, but it's banned in many forms anyway. Marijuana has fewer side effects than alcohol or cigarette smoke, and it may fight cancer and help with a multitude of chronic illnesses.

    Things are rarely black and white, and, while we have certain ingrained social beliefs, it's important to continually question our assumptions and ask why we think the way we do.

    The founders of the Constitution tolerated actions and beliefs of others that were not necessarily congruent with their own. That doesn't mean they agreed with those actions or beliefs - they were quite vocal about their opinions (some remind me of the flame wars we see around here now and then), but they lost nothing by respecting the views of others.

    Is this a childish viewpoint? Am I succumbing to the politically correct mush that permeates the media? I think the difference is that I don't fall over myself congratulating same-sex couples on their "bravery", I don't speak spanish, and I don't observe muslim holidays. Some people here do, and that's fine, it's just not for me.

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    Damnit, where's the punisher when you need him to deal with druggie trash?!

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