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Thread: mouse guns

  1. #1
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    what mouse gun is better .22LR or 25apc i know they are both marginal calibers for self defense but they are great for them hot summer days or days that you would probably end up not carrying due to discomforts of carrying a larger gun or even as a BUG, any gun is better than no gun correct. I already have an RG 26 .25cal and its a fun little gun to shoot and great for them days that you would probably not otherwise carry as i described above. I am seriously considering adding a Jennings j-22 to my collection for a couple of reasons. 1. cheap as hell to shoot 2. they are a pretty sexy little mouse gun.

    now the question more comes down to when not if i get a j-22 and I want to carry a mouse gun what one do i take with an what one do i leave at home. the .22lr round has better volicty than the .25acp but rim fire's lack the reliability of a centerfire cartrige. what are your oppions between these two options?

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    IMO, both brands of gun you name would be fine for practice but not for actual "serious" carry, due to quality issues. I'd suggest getting a brand of gun more noted for quality for that role. In my case, that meant getting a Beretta 21A Bobcat (inox version) in .22LR, partly because the Beretta 950 was out of production and has been for years now. Butif you can find a Beretta 950 -- it's SA only -- that would be another good choicere: a quality small pistol. The 21A comes in 25ACP also.

    As for caliber, my vote is for the .22LR rather than the .25, and the .22 ammo I use in my 21A -- CCI's Stingers -- have NEVER failed to fire.As for .22 bulk ammo, I suggest it be usedfor practice but not for carry, though misfires/dudseven in bulk ammo are RARE in my experience. I think the argument ".25ACP ammo is more reliable, get a .25 instead" is weak and unconvincing, and there's more tothis than if a round is more likely to fire or not. Quality .22 ammo is fine. Just make sure it works in YOUR gun if you carry it for defense...for practice, ammo misfires, ammo that does not work the slide ALL the time or doesn't feed properly isn't any big deal. In serious use, it sure is.

    And frankly, if I DO happen to get a dud Stinger at the critical time I have to use my Beretta in a self-defense situation -- and I get killed because of it -- I see it as an "Act of God" as it's my time to go...so I'm notAT ALLworried about it.

    So while your cheaper .22 autos MAY work every time and all the time, personally I would choose a higher quality (and more durable) gun for serious carry.

    As per routine, keep in mind that the smaller the caliber, the better shot you must be as small calibers do not have the "fudge factor" larger calibers do.

    Nor is there any point to using HPs in small calibers such as a .22 or 25, so use solids. Most .22 HPs will be too slow coming out of a short .22 auto's barrelso they will act as solids anyway. Stingers are supposed to be "pentagon point" HPs, but in my 21A I consider them solids. Even if they DID open, they're STILL too small to do much and penetration would suffer.

    Just do your bestto hit the small vital CNS targets you need to when using small caliber guns (even if using a .22 rifle)...forget general torso shots.

    -- John D.

    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    I concur with cloudcroft. I've had a Beretta 21A and still have a Beretta 950. There is a minimal difference in bullet performance and I too, use nothing but solid rounds in my 950.

    I kept the 950 over the 21A for two reasons, the somewhat smaller profile of the 950 and the fact that the 950 is a SA pistol. I prefer SA over DA pistols.

    You can't lose with either. They are both quality weapons and will go bang when you need them to.
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
    B-2-10 SFG(A)/ A-2-11 SFG(A) 1977-1994

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    ODA 226,

    I looked up the Beretta 950 (at GunsAmerica.com to see what used ones were available over there) and see that it comes in 25ACP also...but as for .22, isthe 950only to be had in .22 short -- not .22LR?

    As for the 21A, I also prefer SA -- do not care for DAO autos at all -- but with the 21A I have a choice of DA or SA. And with the first shot being DA (if you do not choose to cock it first) it acts like a "revolver safety" with the long DA trigger pull...for a quick "just pull it out of your pocket and shoot" for immediate close-up use (these are in the "Pocket Pistols" category but of course, do NOT need to be pocket-carried). AndI like the tip-up barrel of the 21A (and Beretta's 3032 (inox) Tomcat 32ACP also).

    Finally,since these "Pocket Pistols"are more accurate than most people think -- and yes, even though they are mainly for close-up use -- having SA makes more distant shots possible, if necessary, due to the smoother trigger in SA vs. DA.

    -- John D.


    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    I know the quality of both the guns i mentioned is notorious for low quality when I first got my rg it lived up to that promise as well. I am however a tinkerer by nature and after polishing all contact points on every moving part in the gun and working the magazine a little bit i have not had even one malfunction in the last 600 rounds iv put threw it. the Jennings i will surely have to go threw the same thing the minimum for any gun i would consider carrying i have to put alteast 300 rounds threw it without a malfunction before ill consider using it as a carry gun.

    I think the biggest difference between a "cheep gun" and an expensive gun is how well everything is de burred and smoothed out. I have owned many "cheep" guns and they always get thoroughly checked out and range tested before i consider to use as a carry gun and if they cant be proven to be reliable or made to be reliable then they become a range plinker for a while until the problems are corrected or it gets sold. IMO you cant really loose much if you get one that just cant be reliable if you buy used you can always sell it for what you paid for it but i haven't come across one yet that i couldn't get to operate reliably.

    with my current .25 acp i can shoot an 1.5 inch ragged hole at self defense ranges (15 feet) and a 2 inch group at 21 feet, although I'm sure this would suffer in a self defense situation, i feel that with mouse guns your chances are you are not going to get a quick drop in your tracks kill. most likely and most preferably the BG will turn tail and run when he sees your gun, if that doesn't happen the physiological affect of being shot + the pain will give you a few necessary second to make an escape or posibily take out the BG any gun is better than throwing twigs or pebbles at a BG.

    I currently carry speer gold dots in all of my guns including my .25auto i have considered alternating roud nose and hp ammo in my .25 auto to get the best of both worlds out of a clip or is just going with straight round nose the way to go? i have shot a phone book with the gold dots and then stabbed the phone book with a knife and i could not stab the knife in as far as the gold dot penetrated (real technical testing i know...lol)

    It has been quite a while sense i have owned a .22. All my .22's have always been rifles. I do know that the .22 has proven to be able to kill, where the .25acp has had a reputation of bouncing off of people skills. I will feel under armed with both rounds, but for me there is a lot of times a gun of this size is a lot more practical, I am a guy at 5'6 140lbs who is very physically active threw out the day and although i do own larger fire arms and do carry them there is alot of days where a larger gun is very uncomfortable and gets in the way.

    some guns like the Kel-Tec P3AT would probably suit me as well but with the scarcity and price of 380 ammo i probably would not get much range time in with it. also i have been finding myself looking at alot of guns in .22 just if for nothing else its somthing you can take to the range and not spend much on ammo. i typicaly go to the range once every two week and as it is i normaly spend 50-75 dollars in ammo for every trip witch is tight on the budget as it is being an homeowner in my mid 20's with a house payment truck payment and so on. I shoot at an outdoor range as you have to be a member of the gun club to shoot at the only indoor range in town so unless i dont join the gun club this winter i may be able to save up for an nice sub compact 9mm but i still want somthing in .22 none the less

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    How much is your life worth?

    I get so tired of seeing the "scarcity and price" of .380.... Really, how much ammo do you need to go through to believe that your defense handgun is going to perform it's duty? If I can go through 100 rounds of my .380 defense ammo without a problem, guess what? I'm more than willing to carry 19 rounds of that ammo for my clean P3AT. If it takes me a month to get those 119 rounds gathered up, I'll carry one of my other uncomfortable, but known reliable handguns for a month. I had a P3AT. It was a great gun. I'd buy another one and carry it after 7 no-prob rounds. It's a BUG, and should be treated that way.

    Quite frankly, what I'd recommend, is that you learn to be your active self with a handgun that shoots a reliably penetrable round. If you can get that out of a .380, go for it. If you can get that out of a .25ACP, yay. Just don't settle for a less penetrating round because another viable option costs twice as much. This isn't a fun-gun AR-15 we're talking about, where a .223 is going to cost you oh so much more than a 5.65mm to put through paper. This is potentially your life.

    You can't rely on psychological and physiological effects to protect you. You have to make it a definitive effect. IE: can't get up and try and hurt you anymore.

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    I got a PF9 for mouse gun. My life is worth more than a 3 cent .22lr round. It's worth about a 50 cent 9mm

    but thats for my BUG.

    I carry a 10MM.

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    I guess if you're dead set on a .22 then those are your choices, but have had too many "clicks" from .22 rifles to trust them for moment's notice social work.

    Especially when I can completely cover my wife's Keltec P32 with my hand. Just as small and more powerful to boot.

    Personally, I'm also a PF9 guy. It's not that much bigger, but a whole 'nother league in power.

    Now, if you're just looking for something to take to the range and blast away with, that's one thing. But for a BUG/Deep Concealment weapon I think there are better choices.

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    Pre ban (68GCA) Beretta 950B was available in .25ACP and named the Jetfire. Hard to find one today and expect to pay mucho $$$ for a Jetfire in mint condition. BTW, shooting one loaded with Corbon is like holding a firecracker.

    The 950B and the 21a in a UM pocket holster are neat mouseguns that can go anywhere.

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    Wangmuf wrote:
    How much is your life worth?

    I forgot who it was but I'll paraphrase what they said. My life is worth more to methan any brand of firearm that will ever be made. Be it a 4 grand Les Baer or a Hi Point for 120 bucks. The weapon you can afford that's on you is worth infinitely more than the one sitting behind glass at the shop that you're saving up for.



    -Gruu

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    i have been becoming much a fan of keltec's but I do not like .380's the more i hear about the keltec pf9 the more i want one. a pf9 is on my to get list, and considering i have other 9mm pistols it is nice to have multiple guns that use the same ammo. im pretty much set on getting a .22 now to be honest the primary purpose of my .25 auto and a .22 when i get one is not for self defense but there are times that i do like to carry this small of a gun for convenience its easy to forget you are even carrying with this size gun. the .22 and .25 in my mind are pretty much a wash between the two the .25 has more reliable ignition where the .22 has a higher velocity a tough choice between the two for me. honestly the .25 i only bought because i paid $40 for it, but it is a fun little shooter and pretty darn accurate for a gun of its size, now the problem with it for a range gun is .25 auto is almost $20 a box of 50rds. of range ammo. After the .25 proved its reliability i have carried it on several occasions both as a bug and as a primary for days iv described above where i otherwise would not have carried and it fits this bill very well. now after i get a .22lr mouse gun (which i will say is primarily for range use) if i find myself getting ready to leave the house and say to myself i'm not or can't strap on this large hunk of metal today ill take a mouse gun and i have a .25 auto sitting right next to a .22lr mouse gun what is the better of the two rounds ie center fire vrs velocity.

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    TehGruu wrote:
    Wangmuf wrote:
    How much is your life worth?

    I forgot who it was but I'll paraphrase what they said. My life is worth more to methan any brand of firearm that will ever be made. Be it a 4 grand Les Baer or a Hi Point for 120 bucks. The weapon you can afford that's on you is worth infinitely more than the one sitting behind glass at the shop that you're saving up for.



    -Gruu
    I love that quote thanks for sharing even a jam o matic one shot wonder is better than nothing. although the hi point is a great pistol other than being heavy and bulky, i have one and it is extremely reliable, but i did look at a Jimenez arms JA nine not to long ago and had considered it thinking it was a highpoint with a double stack 12 round magazine, boy was i wrong just handling the gun scared me and i dident even shoot it, i wouldn't trust and Jennings or Jimenez anything bigger than an .25auto i am kinda salivating a bit over the j22-ja22 the ones iv looked at seem far better than the 9mm JA nine. although if i had no other choice but a ja nine i would own one.

    now the hipoint, is not a high dollar gun its not attractive but it functions very well, I had probably 3 feed jams in the first 100 rounds and 2 more on a box of wolf in the first 200 rounds after that i have not had one jam in the last probably 1000 rounds iv put threw it, but i do clean all my guns religiously. I owned a used glock 9mm for a little while and it was a good gun as well, but for them both being big blocky and ugly i ended up selling the glock they are great guns but not worth the price tag im my option. now as i have mentioned my primary purpose of a .22 mouse gun is not for carry use except for a POSSIBILITY of once in a while. the longer i carry (have only been carrying on a regular basis for about a year now) the more i find the want for lighter weight smaller guns, that is where the keltec pf9 is going to come into play probably some time over this winter.

    so back on topic....lol.... .22lr or .25acp out of thoughs two choices what is the better self defense round



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    "How much is your life worth" is a reply given by those who mostly parrot what they heard from someone or saw written in a gun forum, and don't really know much about guns/self-defense themselves to appreciate smaller calibers...or respect them. Whoever first said that was uninformed, but it continues to be quoted. It's also used by insurance companies and such -- even car companies who cite how safe their car is [EDIT: andalso ask youhow much your wife's and kid's life is worth -- what a loaded question] -- but it's mostly just to make you pay more for something you don't really need.

    Andit's an open-ended question with no real concrete answer...except in insurance actuarilal tables. ;-)

    So whenever the term "mouse guns" comes up -- which is derisive and disrepectful in itself to that category of lethal weapons --the quote above (and one below) are ALWAYS seen in some responses, but the OP wanted us to address the ".22LRvs. .25ACP" issue, not citesaid lame quote above or say something like "you need to get a larger caliber" -- which is justas lame and unhelpful.

    -- John D.

    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    thank you for your reply cloudcroft

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    You're welcome...even if AM biasedon this "mouseguns" issue.

    Yes, you have to have different tactics when using a small caliber -- the gun you carry is only half the equation, your tactics is the other half -- but that doesn't mean it's useless.

    I have often carried a Beretta 21A (with Stingers) as it is so comfortable to carry ALL DAY LONG I don't even feel it's there. So it goes with me everywhere -- which MAY be a problem if you forget you have it in some place you legally should not! ;-)

    And I just ordered a brick ofAguila .22LR "Interceptors" mainly for my Marlin M60 rifle (my "one-gun-choice-for-survival-situations" gun), but will try them out in theBeretta, too. I really like CCI Velocitors but left them back in NM in my safe (along with most of my other ammo) when I moved down here and have wanted to try out the Interceptors anyway.

    --- John D.

    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    If my only choice is .22 or .25, I'd go with .22 . No good reason, the .25 hollowpoint rounds I've seen just look wimpy.

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    Daddyo wrote:
    ...the .25 hollowpoint rounds I've seen just look wimpy.
    But those .22 rounds are sure to strike fear in the heart of anyone faced with them, right?

  18. #18
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    Well, if someone points a gun at me --regardless of caliber -- it would get my undivided attention. The fact that it's a .22 rather than a .45 would make no difference whatsoever, nor would it matter what bullet types were being used: They both can kill, which is impressive enough.

    But maybe that's just me.

    Perhaps you could shrug-off tiny bullets, but I hope you'll understand my reluctance even to try.

    -- John D.
    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    No need to read into my comment Cloudcroft, I'm well aware of the dangers of tiny bullets and wasn't shrugging anything off. What I was doing was simply making a joke about choosing a .22 over a .25 because .25 rounds "look wimpy".

    Next time I'll be sure to end my post with these...

    :P:P:P

    ...to avoid any misunderstanding.


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    Yeah...I wasn't sure how you meant that, so I guessed...wrong. That's one of thepossible resultsof text-only: Misunderstandings. Now I see the emoticons...

    And yes, the rounds DO look wimpy -- especially the .22LR -- but that belies their lethality.

    -- John D.
    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

  21. #21
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    A .22 can be a dandy disabler. A hit in the knee or the pit of the shoulder or the clavicle will very likely disable an attacker at least enough to allow you to flee. Hits in the mouth will likely strike nerves in the dental pulp and if you have ever seen "Marathon Man"....

    Hits above the eyes can blind with blood flow. Hits TO the eyes can blind with - well, permanent blindness (which would likely mae your assailant likely to wish you had killed him (and also to sue you).

    Personally I have never had to bust a cap on anyone in anger except for a couple of "warning" shots and yeah, yeah I know. But as far as actually firing with full intent of application of lethal force, no. Additionally I have had a couple situations where mere display of the weapon ended the threat. But if all I had to carry was a .22, I would practice by setting up a paper plaate at 7 yards and concentrate on emptying the weapon as fast as possible and getting enough accuracy so that as many shots as possible landed within two inches of the center.

    Since a .22 doesn't kick very much, emphasis should be put on trigger squeeze discipline so as not to jerk rounds wild.

    In a tactical situation with a .22; the central point of aim should be at the tip of the nose. With practice this should mean that your shots will cause blindness and/or blinding, incapacitating pain. Or at least so it may be hoped.

    IMO a .22 or a .25 is better thn nothing, but at a max they cannot be counted upon for anything other than, used right,MAYBE givingyou the chance to get the hell out of Dodge. And really I don't care if you are carrying a .22 or a .500 S&W Magnum, the best course of action is to avoid trouble if it is reasonably possible to do so. No matter the caliber or circumstance, there WILL be consequenses attendant to loosing hot lead against another human being. Those consequenses can be heavy, and only peril to innocent life can outweigh them.

    Just my opinion, guys. Feel free to trash it.

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    Have you looked into Kel Tec. If you want a bunch of punch in a small package, Google them.

    Lifetime warranty, too.

    Lose the idea that anything starting it's caliber with a "2" is useful for self defense.
    I personally prefer calibers that start with a "4" - .45 ACP to be exact. It's fat, slow, devastating, and reliable as can be. Fat and slow are a huge plus in urban settings or in an occupied building. They don't go through a ton of wallboard, but will give you a solid 12" of human body penetration.

    Forget shooting to wound. That's Hollywood stuff. Shoot to kill or not at all.

    Remember that the consequences of not shooting (or shooting only to wound) can be far worse for you than facing the possibility of a trial for actually shooting someone intent upon doing you or someone else harm or intent upon killing you or someone else.

    I learned my stuff at a little ranch near Paulden, AZ in the '70's from the best handgun pro of all. Thanks, Coop.

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    alwynsw wrote:
    Shoot to kill or not at all.
    They teach that at Gunsite?

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    Alexcabbie,

    No trashing, just a comment...

    That's another bane (and another topic) of the armed citizen: The Law. It seems to protect the criminal rather then the decent citizen. It SHOULD be Open Season on ANY criminal trying to do ANYthing to you...but it isn't. As America "fights" in foreign "wars" in a "humane" (PC) fashion -- which hampers our military big-time and makes us look like global jokes/Paper Tigers -- so too here at home decent citizens are put through the wringer, even after a good shoot. That's shameful. [And one reason I say liberals run this country...conservatives would "simplify" these things...I knowI would.]

    Still, I wouldn't let the legal aftermath interfere with dealing with criminals in an immediate and permanent manner. After all, THEY don't care, and thoughts of "what happens afterwards" is of no concern to them as they fear not the American "justice" system. Better be on the same page in that event or you'll be at a disadvantage right from the start.

    alwynsw,

    Ooops...you're not using the appropriate liberal PC term there: It's "shoot to stop," not "shoot to kill." Now please apologize to the Brady Bunch for your bloodthirsty comments.

    ButI get your meaning andI agree.

    -- John D.


    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    smash29 wrote:
    alwynsw wrote:
    Shoot to kill or not at all.
    They teach that at Gunsite?

    heh heh heh

    It was a week in a tent back then. Your own tent.

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