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Reason Number 1 why OC is better than CC

deepdiver

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juturna wrote:
Ah ha that's the reaction I was aiming for. As. a parent your child is number one in your life right and it's your job to protect them. Their life value is more than the other kids because they are yours. And honestly once I have kids it will be the same for me. But my point is by ocing you may scare off a person but they will just find another kid in which they will feel the same way as the reaction you all just gave to me.

Here are the facts though we are just dealing with IFs saying ocing or even ccing is better than the other is like saying shorts are better than jeans. Shorts will keep you cool but you MIGHT hit a thorn bush. It's all the same. How? Simple. It's all what you believe is right for you and there is no wrong answer. Just like how you choose your kid over another anyday. Because it's yours. It's your preference so it's always going to be the best.
No need to bait people for the discussion....

Juturna, stick around and you will find that there isn't necessarily a lot of disagreement. In the companion to this thread title something like "Reason Number 2" in this subforum I make much of your 2nd paragraph argument. Prior forum polling shows that the vast majority of OCDO members have a concealed carry license/permit where required to CC and choose CC or OC depending on a number of factors. One of the primary aspects of OCDO for me is that we do have that choice we can make.
 

ixtow

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juturna wrote:
Ah ha that's the reaction I was aiming for. As. a parent your child is number one in your life right and it's your job to protect them. Their life value is more than the other kids because they are yours. And honestly once I have kids it will be the same for me. But my point is by ocing you may scare off a person but they will just find another kid in which they will feel the same way as the reaction you all just gave to me.

Here are the facts though we are just dealing with IFs saying ocing or even ccing is better than the other is like saying shorts are better than jeans. Shorts will keep you cool but you MIGHT hit a thorn bush. It's all the same. How? Simple. It's all what you believe is right for you and there is no wrong answer. Just like how you choose your kid over another anyday. Because it's yours. It's your preference so it's always going to be the best.
Just because you can make an analogous statement, does not make it a valid one.

If my car doesn't start, and the sky is blue at the time, one cannot say that my car did not start BECAUSE the sky was blue. No matter how loud or often you argue that, it still won't be rational. Shorts and long pants.

Your emotional response was and still is indefensible. Backpedaling won't fix it.

You claim to be the delivery boy of facthood, yet revert straight back to nonsense with no basis in reality or even in what-if land. this is not an insult. this is me pointing a finger straight at the obvious BS that is filling up the room, and asking you if that is really what you want to do? Presuming that you are a rational, thinking person, is that a course you want to continue upon? Do you see how nonsensical your own position is? By your own logic this doesn't make sense.

I've never OCed a day in my life. See the Location by my Name? But it is still my preference because I have experienced, repeatedly, that a hidden weapon offers an unpleasant surprise to no one but it's owner; when reality cuts the BS and you are just as helpless as the unarmed. The very same thing has been reported by many who have been pressed into the unenviable position of using their weapon.

I don't roll the dice. That is the only real difference. I want to be the maximum effective, and you settle for good-enough but don't want to burst the propaganda bubble and admit it. I did not consciously make such a choice, and I doubt you are reprehensible enough to deliberately promote a lie. But pride and ego can be tough to set aside in admitting you've been had. I am no exception; I had to learn the hard way.

I only offer these tidbits to those who are wise enough to learn from the mistakes of others (me). The rest, perhaps I've cast pearls before swine. The difference will always make itself known.

I was so proud of my Government Issued Privilege, no one was ever going to tell me it had shortcoming that could make it almost completely worthless. That pride and arrogance in being 'approved' by the great collective false-authority almost put an end to the only thing in life worth living for. And I stand enduring attacks from those I offered it to. If that doesn't prove to you how completely 'had' you are, nothing will. You've closed your mind the same way I did. Only the business end of a razor knife against my son's throat got the through to me. I suggest only that you not be like me, and you loose the dogs...

Your loss.
 

ixtow

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Tell me, in the several times you've had to draw your weapon, which of these thoughts crossed your mind (don't actually answer, you would never pick the incriminating one publicly anyhow):

1) "Crap, I'm going to have to kill this guy. ****, damn, shit, hell, why me! No time to bitch, let's roll."

2) "Ha! Just what I've been waiting for! I get to kill this guy!"

Now, did I tell you which one you are? Were you preparing a defensive response AS IF I had, even though I did not?

Your thoughts are not your own.
 

juturna

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I've never been the one to clearly post my thoughts on forums. They come out wrong and taken thenwrong way:

I was just simply stating that ocing or ccing has been argued over and over on which is better. Their are pros ans cons for both and neither is wrong. I can give several reasons why ocing would be wrong and so I can also tell you reasons for ccing that is wrong.
 

Task Force 16

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juturna wrote:
Ah ha that's the reaction I was aiming for. As. a parent your child is number one in your life right and it's your job to protect them. Their life value is more than the other kids because they are yours. And honestly once I have kids it will be the same for me. But my point is by ocing you may scare off a person but they will just find another kid in which they will feel the same way as the reaction you all just gave to me.

Repsonding to the bold.

The other kids parents may not feel the same way as those of us that OC (or CC for that matter), because most of them have chosen to be unarmed to protect their child from potential preditors. In fact, many don't even want law abiding citizens to carry their tools for defense into parks where children are most likely to be found playing, and often times the hardest place to keep up with them.

What I'm saying is, We that carry side arms (OC or CC) seem to take our responsibility of protecting our children more seriously that those parents/grandparents that do not carry. Those of us that OC believe thatit has a better chance of preventing a crime from being initiated than CC. We also know that it isn't in any way a gaurantee that it won't.
 

230therapy

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Hmmm...let's think this "OC vs. CC" through.

The entire argument provided in the first few posts is based upon gear (call it the "hardware solution") and a lack of acknowledgement that perception is never 100%.

1) There are situations where it would be more advantageous to have the gun concealed.
2) There are situations where it would be more advantageous to openly carry the gun.

There are disadvantages to both.

Perception is extremely important. Noticing pre-assault queues is an essential skill. If the good guy is ready and understands the pre-assault queues, he or she will not be behind the reactionary curve. There are really just three possibilities for initiative: behind the curve, equal initiative, and ahead of the curve. Since it's impossible to constantly scan 360 degrees (reviewing intent, checking hands and belts, etc), one cannot possibly defend against a snatch attack on a child. All it takes to interrupt a scan is to look down at a phone or look at something in the hand.

This is where training your reactions comes in. If you're behind the curve, it is essential that you get off the line of attack by moving...don't be in front of the bullet or knife. If initiative is equal, you still need to get off the line of attack and follow up with a counter attack. If you're ahead of the curve, you initiate an attack from a position of advantage, such as behind cover. If you don't see the attack in the first place, there is not much you can do to avoid taking the bad guy's first attack.

OC or CC doesn't really matter if you're trained since the difference in gun presentation is small. I can do a 0.85-90 second first shot with draw from concealment using the 1/2 Hip position. I cannot go much faster than that regardless of the gun's position. The 1/2 Hip position is just fine for the distances involved in the scenario; the kid's short so aim high. Better yet, rush in and overwhelm the bad guy with violence. The bad guy is EXPECTING compliance. Do not give it to him.

A paper I read tonight entitled "How your eyes can cast your fate in a gunfight" substantiates what I have said above. It used scientific methods to determine where the good guy's eyes are looking. They were able to determine where the eyes looked and correlated that to the actions of the participant. The people who did the best in the scenario were those who watched the hands, understood the escalating body language AND DREW THEIR WEAPONS EARLY. They were also able to more easily distinguish between a gun and a cell phone during the bad guy's draw...and hold their fire.

Initiative is essential in fights. The best way to be ready is to be able to identify pre-assault indicators. Once the good guy has confirmed that an assault is about to take place, ACTING on that information means the difference between being behind the curve or ahead of it. Those who were ahead of the curve fired first with a larger difference in time (from the bad guy's action). Additionally, the shooters who did better focused upon their target's hands, not their own gun. The shooter was able to readily identify (and remember) the object and make the correct decision more frequently (only 18% failure vs 70%+).

So what have we learned?

1) Be alert!
2) Know how to read body language
3) Understand the pre-assault queues
4) Act immediately upon confirmation of an attack
5) Do not comply
6) Move and shoot
7) Focus on the target so your brain can see and make proper decisions
8) Carry according to the situation
9) Practice frequently so your draw is fast and you can do it while moving

***

Mushashi recommended to us to "Learn to look left and right without moving the eyes." I think this is a really good skill to have given the context of the above post.
 

ixtow

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230, I really like a lot of what you wrote here, and I think I skip a lot of it because I am not a person who gives off indicators, and my body language is nothing like other peoples'. I'm often told this; that I am 'strange' or 'hard to read,' or 'intimidating.' I think I project some of that. I don't always presume what others would call an indicator, because I screen it through the 'if I were in those shoes' filter.

Like I sometimes do on the forums here, I have to act. I have to force myself to emulate others in order to have the traits that people are used to seeing. Otherwise I'm 'alarming' through the simple fact that I appear as "one of these things is not like the other." What can't be processed is presumed dangerous. I've often wondered how this will be perceived when I begin to OC.

You will notice that I made no mention of how I handled the matter.

That aside, nobody has eyes on the back of their head. Not all confrontations involve any kind of indicator at all, or even being aware of a would-be aggressor's presence. If they are as good at what they do, as you are at what you do, the simple biological fact that your eyes are on the front of your head put you at a disadvantage. In a crowd of people walking about, seemingly minding their own business, the idea that you're going to read someone, or even see it coming, is very exaggerated. There is just no way to process and screen that much input, and there is nothing to say that the threat even approaches from the field of view, or appears to be a threat. A good aggressor knows how to NOT broadcast his intent; it is how THEY get the element of surprise. Which, by nature, is OFFENSIVE.

I'm considering 10 O'Clock cross draw as my OC option for exactly this reason.

One's powers of observation may be honed, but there are limitations to being human. For example, I am not bullet-proof just because I have a gun of my own...

Your example of draw is presumptive. Your carry position is impossible for me. Printing is a Felony here, and exposure of the weapon by accident will result in a shoot first ask questions later (there have been exceptions where officers responded professionally, but it's rare). Deep cover is the only real option.
 

JohnnyO

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ixtow wrote:
You're CCing in a Shopping Mall with your 7 year old Son. Someone comes from behind and grabs him. By the time you manage to draw your weapon from deep cover CC, you own child has become the kidnapper's human shield.

Now, what good is your 'element of surprise?'

Go ahead and tell me how the kidnapper would have just attacked me first. Cite examples of the prior in one hand, and the former in the other hand, and tell me which one fills up first.

I don't think a kid deserves to go through that. OC prevents, CC does not.

If you were OCing in that mall, do you honestly believe that kidnapper would have done that, after seeing the gun in plain view? Do you not think kidnappers watch and 'case' a person before doing such a thing?

The only 'surprise' CC grants, is for those who do meet with the need, and realize that CC falls horribly short. The only person who can argue that CC present a tactical advantage of surprise, is that person who has never actually needed it. The 'surprise' is all on you when you find yourself in such a position.
First off I fail to see how a couple tenths of a second really matter here.

Then on the issue of prevention who is to say the "bad guy" would even see the gun? If he is some sort of pervert fixated on the child, well perhaps he would not see the gun. As mentioned above if not a family member or a pro it is a nut job acting on impulse. Nutjob located on your left as you pass by and he spies child, gun on your right hip = he doesn't see it. Just as likely as anything else mentioned.

On Open Carry in general, I don't like it. If I were a criminal in need of a gun and I spotted someone open carrying, Jackpot! The only thing slowing me down is deciding on whether or not I want the model you are carrying.
 

N6ATF

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JohnnyO wrote:
On Open Carry in general, I don't like it. If I were a criminal in need of a gun and I spotted someone open carrying, Jackpot! The only thing slowing me down is deciding on whether or not I want the model you are carrying.
Aww, how cute, another first post FUD-spewer with no evidence to back up this oft-repeated claim of criminal OC disarmament. No evidence because there is none.

You guys are like baby rabbits. You never stop coming.
 

Dreamer

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ixtow,

I'm not being sarcastic here, but really, if where you live is such a combat zone filled with psychotic child abductors and crazed muggers, and to top it off, "printing" is a felony, maybe you should consider relocating to a more rational state.

One of the wonderful thing about humans being such highly evolved tool-using mammals is that we can drive moving vans. Sometimes the best way to adapt to a hostile environment is to migrate...

On a lighter note, I've been wondering, how did Don Johnson walk around in all those seasons of Miami Vice with a Bren Ten in a concealed shoulder rig and avoid "printing" through all those very light summer-weight linen sports coats? The Bren Ten is a BIG pistol (bigger than a standard 1911), and Don is a pretty small guy as Hollywood actors go.
 

230therapy

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"Your example of draw is presumptive. Your carry position is impossible for me. Printing is a Felony here, and exposure of the weapon by accident will result in a shoot first ask questions later (there have been exceptions where officers responded professionally, but it's rare). Deep cover is the only real option."

Please clarify this part. Thanks.
 

JohnnyO

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N6ATF wrote:
JohnnyO wrote:
On Open Carry in general, I don't like it. If I were a criminal in need of a gun and I spotted someone open carrying, Jackpot! The only thing slowing me down is deciding on whether or not I want the model you are carrying.
Aww, how cute, another first post FUD-spewer with no evidence to back up this oft-repeated claim of criminal OC disarmament. No evidence because there is none.

You guys are like baby rabbits. You never stop coming.
So I am new here, big deal. I do not need evidence to prove my point. It would not be too difficult to walk up behind someone OCing, club them in the head and walk away with a gun. Sorry if my perception doesn't fit with yours on what can happen. Oh, don't bother saying that an incident like this could only happen to a dunce walking around in condition White.
 

ixtow

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JohnnyO wrote:
N6ATF wrote:
JohnnyO wrote:
On Open Carry in general, I don't like it. If I were a criminal in need of a gun and I spotted someone open carrying, Jackpot! The only thing slowing me down is deciding on whether or not I want the model you are carrying.
Aww, how cute, another first post FUD-spewer with no evidence to back up this oft-repeated claim of criminal OC disarmament. No evidence because there is none.

You guys are like baby rabbits. You never stop coming.
So I am new here, big deal. I do not need evidence to prove my point. It would not be too difficult to walk up behind someone OCing, club them in the head and walk away with a gun. Sorry if my perception doesn't fit with yours on what can happen. Oh, don't bother saying that an incident like this could only happen to a dunce walking around in condition White.
But when and where? Can you tell me of this actually happening? I've yet to hear of any instance where a criminal decides to attack an obviously armed person who has immediate access to that weapon, specifically because of that weapon. I look for it, and I can't find any example of it, not one. Something that completely one-sided DOES require a citation for validation.

From a what-if/preparation perspective, there is a teensie possibility, yes. but from the research I've done so far (and that is a lot of it), I can't find anything to suggest there is a problem with this in reality. Criminals are cowards who don't want to take a chance. Criminals are not usually insane (crazies). Their choices are deliberate and predatory, and predators attack the weakest. I choose not to be the weakest.
 

JohnnyO

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ixtow wrote:
JohnnyO wrote:
N6ATF wrote:
JohnnyO wrote:
On Open Carry in general, I don't like it. If I were a criminal in need of a gun and I spotted someone open carrying, Jackpot! The only thing slowing me down is deciding on whether or not I want the model you are carrying.
Aww, how cute, another first post FUD-spewer with no evidence to back up this oft-repeated claim of criminal OC disarmament. No evidence because there is none.

You guys are like baby rabbits. You never stop coming.
So I am new here, big deal. I do not need evidence to prove my point. It would not be too difficult to walk up behind someone OCing, club them in the head and walk away with a gun. Sorry if my perception doesn't fit with yours on what can happen. Oh, don't bother saying that an incident like this could only happen to a dunce walking around in condition White.
But when and where? Can you tell me of this actually happening? I've yet to hear of any instance where a criminal decides to attack an obviously armed person who has immediate access to that weapon, specifically because of that weapon. I look for it, and I can't find any example of it, not one. Something that completely one-sided DOES require a citation for validation.

From a what-if/preparation perspective, there is a teensie possibility, yes. but from the research I've done so far (and that is a lot of it), I can't find anything to suggest there is a problem with this in reality. Criminals are cowards who don't want to take a chance. Criminals are not usually insane (crazies). Their choices are deliberate and predatory, and predators attack the weakest. I choose not to be the weakest.
Your statements are certainly reasonable. I have no personal knowledge of the example I described ever happening. However the thought does bother me enough to decide to only carry concealed, which I have been doing for 25+ years.

I have no desire to be statistic #1 that someone can quote. The likelihood that the average person who carries will ever need their weapon is also "teensie" yet we do it. Why, like the Boy Scouts say; "Be Prepared". As well I believe that concealed carry offers a tactical advantage.
 

Task Force 16

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JohnnyO wrote:
Your statements are certainly reasonable. I have no personal knowledge of the example I described ever happening. However the thought does bother me enough to decide to only carry concealed, which I have been doing for 25+ years.

I have no desire to be statistic #1 that someone can quote. The likelihood that the average person who carries will ever need their weapon is also "teensie" yet we do it. Why, like the Boy Scouts say; "Be Prepared". As well I believe that concealed carry offers a tactical advantage.

What "tactical" advantage? And don't give us that old "eliment of surprise" argument either. "Element of surprise" is an offensive tactic, not one of defense.

IMHO, neither OC or CC have any "Tactical" advantage over the other. I see less risk of getting the weapon tagled in our clothing when drawing in a hurry, in OC mode, but that's about it.

The real advantage I see is that when we OC, there is less chance of a criminal act being intiated against us or in our presence, if the criminal sees our weapon. This presents a "strategic advantage" not a "tactical advantage". We know that OC is a better deterant to crime because out of the many engagements each year between criminals and LAC that were carrying , we only know of 2 incidents in which the LAC was OC'ing. In both cases, I believe it is safe to assume the criminals did not see the OC weapon beforehand. (One event was after dark - the weapon wasn't visible, the other, the crinminal failed to case the target area prior to initiating his attack - wasn't aware there was an armed person in the store.)

I think we've all heard of a "Strategic Defense System". I have never heard of a "Tactical Defense System".

Strategy is a plan of actionto leverage an advantage over an opponent offensively,and to present a formidable defense.

Tactics are how you initiate an offensive operation.
 

ixtow

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JohnnyO wrote:
ixtow wrote:
JohnnyO wrote:
N6ATF wrote:
JohnnyO wrote:
On Open Carry in general, I don't like it. If I were a criminal in need of a gun and I spotted someone open carrying, Jackpot! The only thing slowing me down is deciding on whether or not I want the model you are carrying.
Aww, how cute, another first post FUD-spewer with no evidence to back up this oft-repeated claim of criminal OC disarmament. No evidence because there is none.

You guys are like baby rabbits. You never stop coming.
So I am new here, big deal. I do not need evidence to prove my point. It would not be too difficult to walk up behind someone OCing, club them in the head and walk away with a gun. Sorry if my perception doesn't fit with yours on what can happen. Oh, don't bother saying that an incident like this could only happen to a dunce walking around in condition White.
But when and where? Can you tell me of this actually happening? I've yet to hear of any instance where a criminal decides to attack an obviously armed person who has immediate access to that weapon, specifically because of that weapon. I look for it, and I can't find any example of it, not one. Something that completely one-sided DOES require a citation for validation.

From a what-if/preparation perspective, there is a teensie possibility, yes. but from the research I've done so far (and that is a lot of it), I can't find anything to suggest there is a problem with this in reality. Criminals are cowards who don't want to take a chance. Criminals are not usually insane (crazies). Their choices are deliberate and predatory, and predators attack the weakest. I choose not to be the weakest.
Your statements are certainly reasonable. I have no personal knowledge of the example I described ever happening. However the thought does bother me enough to decide to only carry concealed, which I have been doing for 25+ years.

I have no desire to be statistic #1 that someone can quote. The likelihood that the average person who carries will ever need their weapon is also "teensie" yet we do it. Why, like the Boy Scouts say; "Be Prepared". As well I believe that concealed carry offers a tactical advantage.
Sometimes I want to pull out my hair...

Is the possibility of being Statistic Number One so scary, that setting one's self up to be Statistic Number Much Larger Than One is somehow worth it?

Step over a dollar to pick up a penny, and call it an advantage? I guess some people insist on learning the hard way... I hope they never have to.

double-facepalm.jpg
 

juturna

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I personally have evidence of perps getting ahold of a trained officers gun and using it against them (which is why I carry a back up) so is it possible for someone getting a gun from a untrained persons hip? Yes it is. Although it has not been posted on the Internet or news does not mean it hasn't happened. Would you want the shame of your dead father on the Internet because someone shot him with his own gun.

Your way of thinking reminds me of the way the city I used to
live in thought of a certain intersection near my old house. Since there was no light people got in wrecks all the time with horrible injjuries oh but that's fine because not enough people died yet.

Although there are clear signs of danger people don't seem to react until what is worth preventing happens.
 

ixtow

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juturna wrote:
I personally have evidence of perps getting ahold of a trained officers gun and using it against them (which is why I carry a back up) so is it possible for someone getting a gun from a untrained persons hip? Yes it is. Although it has not been posted on the Internet or news does not mean it hasn't happened. Would you want the shame of your dead father on the Internet because someone shot him with his own gun.

Your way of thinking reminds me of the way the city I used to
live in thought of a certain intersection near my old house. Since there was no light people got in wrecks all the time with horrible injjuries oh but that's fine because not enough people died yet.

Although there are clear signs of danger people don't seem to react until what is worth preventing happens.
1) Officers tend to be far more clueless than citizens. I can go all day long pointing out cops in condition white, who can't shoot or operate their weapons, or have any clue in retaining them.

2) You still have not presented any evidence that OCing CITIZENS have actually had this happen.

Just because you can make an analogy does not make it accurate, pertinent, or useful.

Why put up a traffic light in your driveway, where there is no traffic? No one has ever died in a wreck there...

There is a huge difference between putting up a traffic light to solve a real problem, and trying to put one up where no problem has ever, even one time, occurred...

Just like not one single soul has ever been able to provide an example that OC results in all of the brady-esque 'what if' scenarios presented. Are you going to tell me now that the streets will flow with blood as guns are ripped from the hips of strutting macho men in speedos, snakeskin boots, and cowboy hats who aren't trained well enough?? You've already defeated the training argument on your own, by pointing out how it has happened to Police Officers, but NOT ever, even one time, to any OCing Citizen.

You've nearly proven my position for me, and still oppose the reality it was made to show; even as you show it yourself? You pointed it out, not me.

And just as a footnote... Ever seen those ridiculous CC badges? I've never seen one for OC... Which group has the ego problem enough to sell that product into the market? Gosh...
 

juturna

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I've seen some pretty ridiculous badges myself. Both oc and cc. Atleast we both agree on that. However most states it is illegal to wear a badge of any type out in the open. So you are not mistaken as an Leo. Which is why mostly ccers carry them. Even though it's ridiculous either way. Some states won't even allow private investigators to have a badge visible.
 

ixtow

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juturna wrote:
I've seen some pretty ridiculous badges myself. Both oc and cc. Atleast we both agree on that. However most states it is illegal to wear a badge of any type out in the open. So you are not mistaken as an Leo. Which is why mostly ccers carry them. Even though it's ridiculous either way. Some states won't even allow private investigators to have a badge visible.
Really? You've seen an OC badge? I just tried to google one, and can't find one of those, either... I'm not denying that it exists, but just for the incredible laugh, please show it to me!

;-) Is there a pattern forming?
 
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