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Thread: Reason Number 2

  1. #1
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    You're CCing [insert any location here]. You are casually approached by a man who asks you for the time (or directions, or if you can spare some change), but then demands that you keep your hands where he can see them, and turn around so he can take your wallet. He displays a knife.

    Now, what good is your 'element of surprise?' You can't use your hands or you'll get stabbed. You can't draw your weapon from cover because he is smart enough not to let you reach for your wallet, or anything else. He's going to get it himself. Even if you choose to make the move, he's going to stab you to death before you manage to draw from cover. Maybe you'll get lucky and take him with you, but you're still dead. You opt to submit, because at least then you'll get out alive. Wallet holster, my ass.

    While turning out your pockets, he discovers your Ruger LCP. Great. Now he has a knife AND a gun AND your wallet. He also knows you are not the sort to keep your mouth shut because gun owners don't take that crap lying down. He doesn't want any witnesses, and you've seen his face. He kills you with your own gun.

    If you were OCing, do you honestly believe that guy would have done that, after seeing the gun in plain view? Do you not think robbers/thieves watch and 'case' a person before doing such a thing?

    The only 'surprise' CC grants, is for those who do meet with the need, and realize that CC falls horribly short. The only person who can argue that CC present a 'tactical advantage of surprise,' is that person who has never actually needed it. The 'surprise' is all on you when you find yourself in such a position.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

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    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Just because you carry a handgun for self-defense doesn't mean you shouldn't know how to defend yourself against an armed attacker if you can't get to it.


    Edit: If you were OCing, what would be the difference? You still got dropped on by a person asking you a seemingly innocent question. Only now he knows to not only ask for your wallet, but he doesn't have to discover the gun he gets to steal too.

  3. #3
    Regular Member CrossFire's Avatar
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    He is not going to kill you with your gun, he will use the knife.

  4. #4
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Wangmuf wrote:
    Just because you carry a handgun for self-defense doesn't mean you shouldn't know how to defend yourself against an armed attacker if you can't get to it.


    Edit: If you were OCing, what would be the difference? You still got dropped on by a person asking you a seemingly innocent question. Only now he knows to not only ask for your wallet, but he doesn't have to discover the gun he gets to steal too.
    Exactly! CC makes it harder, in some places, a LOT harder.

    Does the criminal make the selection you've implied? No. They look for an unarmed target.

    Please demonstrate logically, or factually, how your hypothetical contradiction can or has ever occurred.

    The arguments presented on both of the threads I started along these lines, have been those of someone who has not thought the matter through.

    When you 'need' you CC weapon, you'll find the only 'element of surprise' is that you are already in a bad situation that you now have to fight your way out of. OC could have prevented it altogether.

    But it falls back to the same anti-gun liberal way of thinking. Since you cannot see the crimes that never happened, you presume that CC is better because of the drama, suspense, and danger it creates that you CAN see. None of that happen with OC, because the bad guys, be they stupid or crazy, aren't THAT stupid.

    I've been in the unenviable position 4 times now, and every single time, had I been OCing, the events would never have happened.

    If you choose to CC, that's better than nothing at all. I'm forced to, and have experienced first-hand how inferior it is. Trying to highlight an obvious handicap as an offensive 'tactical advantage' is a thinly veiled line of bull. Why do you need to surprise a bad guy, or anyone, for that matter? "The element of surprise" is a purely offensive concept, useful only for ambushes and ego trips. Defensive carry doesn't need it. It also highlights the reality that a violent and possibly deadly encounter is already taking place, which you must somehow deescalate. OC prevents it from the get-go.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    CrossFire wrote:
    He is not going to kill you with your gun, he will use the knife.
    True, that's an optional step. Guns are loud and leave evidence, knives are not loud and don't leave useful evidence.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Regular Member CrossFire's Avatar
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    Exactly

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    ixtow wrote:
    Wangmuf wrote:
    Just because you carry a handgun for self-defense doesn't mean you shouldn't know how to defend yourself against an armed attacker if you can't get to it.


    Edit: If you were OCing, what would be the difference? You still got dropped on by a person asking you a seemingly innocent question. Only now he knows to not only ask for your wallet, but he doesn't have to discover the gun he gets to steal too.
    Exactly! CC makes it harder, in some places, a LOT harder.

    Does the criminal make the selection you've implied? No. They look for an unarmed target.

    Please demonstrate logically, or factually, how your hypothetical contradiction can or has ever occurred.

    The arguments presented on both of the threads I started along these lines, have been those of someone who has not thought the matter through.

    When you 'need' you CC weapon, you'll find the only 'element of surprise' is that you are already in a bad situation that you now have to fight your way out of. OC could have prevented it altogether.

    But it falls back to the same anti-gun liberal way of thinking. Since you cannot see the crimes that never happened, you presume that CC is better because of the drama, suspense, and danger it creates that you CAN see. None of that happen with OC, because the bad guys, be they stupid or crazy, aren't THAT stupid.

    I've been in the unenviable position 4 times now, and every single time, had I been OCing, the events would never have happened.

    If you choose to CC, that's better than nothing at all. I'm forced to, and have experienced first-hand how inferior it is. Trying to highlight an obvious handicap as an offensive 'tactical advantage' is a thinly veiled line of bull. Why do you need to surprise a bad guy, or anyone, for that matter? "The element of surprise" is a purely offensive concept, useful only for ambushes and ego trips. Defensive carry doesn't need it. It also highlights the reality that a violent and possibly deadly encounter is already taking place, which you must somehow deescalate. OC prevents it from the get-go.
    I'm not going to do your research for you (sounds familiar?). You're also ignoring the whole point of my post, that you're looking at a mugging as a nail because you carry a hammer. Learn how to disarm a knife-wielding attacker without shooting him in the hand. Hell, if you're in fear for your life enough to shoot someone, you should be more than willing to fight back as hard and violently as possible with whatever means you have at your disposal at the time, whether that be hands, elbows, knees, and then a gun if still necessary after you can get to it.


    I understand you're not looking for alternate resolutions to your what-ifs, you're looking for validation on why you should be allowed to OC since it seems you're only allowed to CC where you live. I agree with you.


    Also, I did think through this scenario before I posted.

    I'm CC.
    A knife-wielding attacker got the drop on me.
    He's going to find my gun, and in your opinion he's going to kill me when he does.
    I'm in fear of losing my life.
    Solution: Fight back! (Isn't this why we carry? So we're not victims in waiting?); Attempt to disarm attacker, open distance, draw and stand my ground if necessary/legal.

    Worst-case scenario, I still die. Best-case scenario, I live, have some defensive wounds from the knife, attacker gets arrested and spends substantial time in prison unless he forces me to kill him.

    What's the unenviable position you've been in 4 times? Robbed while CC/NO-C?

  8. #8
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Wangmuf wrote:
    ixtow wrote:
    Wangmuf wrote:
    Just because you carry a handgun for self-defense doesn't mean you shouldn't know how to defend yourself against an armed attacker if you can't get to it.


    Edit: If you were OCing, what would be the difference? You still got dropped on by a person asking you a seemingly innocent question. Only now he knows to not only ask for your wallet, but he doesn't have to discover the gun he gets to steal too.
    Exactly! CC makes it harder, in some places, a LOT harder.

    Does the criminal make the selection you've implied? No. They look for an unarmed target.

    Please demonstrate logically, or factually, how your hypothetical contradiction can or has ever occurred.

    The arguments presented on both of the threads I started along these lines, have been those of someone who has not thought the matter through.

    When you 'need' you CC weapon, you'll find the only 'element of surprise' is that you are already in a bad situation that you now have to fight your way out of. OC could have prevented it altogether.

    But it falls back to the same anti-gun liberal way of thinking. Since you cannot see the crimes that never happened, you presume that CC is better because of the drama, suspense, and danger it creates that you CAN see. None of that happen with OC, because the bad guys, be they stupid or crazy, aren't THAT stupid.

    I've been in the unenviable position 4 times now, and every single time, had I been OCing, the events would never have happened.

    If you choose to CC, that's better than nothing at all. I'm forced to, and have experienced first-hand how inferior it is. Trying to highlight an obvious handicap as an offensive 'tactical advantage' is a thinly veiled line of bull. Why do you need to surprise a bad guy, or anyone, for that matter? "The element of surprise" is a purely offensive concept, useful only for ambushes and ego trips. Defensive carry doesn't need it. It also highlights the reality that a violent and possibly deadly encounter is already taking place, which you must somehow deescalate. OC prevents it from the get-go.
    I'm not going to do your research for you (sounds familiar?). You're also ignoring the whole point of my post, that you're looking at a mugging as a nail because you carry a hammer. Learn how to disarm a knife-wielding attacker without shooting him in the hand. Hell, if you're in fear for your life enough to shoot someone, you should be more than willing to fight back as hard and violently as possible with whatever means you have at your disposal at the time, whether that be hands, elbows, knees, and then a gun if still necessary after you can get to it.


    I understand you're not looking for alternate resolutions to your what-ifs, you're looking for validation on why you should be allowed to OC since it seems you're only allowed to CC where you live. I agree with you.


    Also, I did think through this scenario before I posted.

    I'm CC.
    A knife-wielding attacker got the drop on me.
    He's going to find my gun, and in your opinion he's going to kill me when he does.
    I'm in fear of losing my life.
    Solution: Fight back! (Isn't this why we carry? So we're not victims in waiting?); Attempt to disarm attacker, open distance, draw and stand my ground if necessary/legal.

    Worst-case scenario, I still die. Best-case scenario, I live, have some defensive wounds from the knife, attacker gets arrested and spends substantial time in prison unless he forces me to kill him.

    What's the unenviable position you've been in 4 times? Robbed while CC/NO-C?
    I'm not disagreeing with any of your points. Just pointing out that the need to fight back in any form, nail, hammer, gun, or a pink tutu, is negated by choosing not to be the path of least resistance, and letting it be clearly known.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    I don't think this is a matter of absolutes. I do think that OC deters many potential criminals but certainly not all. I expect that certain bad elements of a certain mentality might provoke a confrontation with someone OC that would not occur if the person were CC or would amount to a more easily retreatable situation if not OC.

    And not all OC or CC are created equal. I have to CC in my town due to local ordinance and no state preemption statute. In cooler/cold months I prefer to use an unfastened jacket/coat as my cover garment. The difference in my time between drawing from this CC position and OC is negligible, if any,m and either can be done with only my strong side hand/arm. CC under sweater, dress shirt, etc for me is a slower draw than OC and for speed requires the weak side hand/arm to lift the cover garment. The point being that OC is not necessarily any faster access to your defensive tool than CC.

    For me, the issue of OC is an issue of choices in how I exercise my constitutionally protected rights. There are times that I prefer OC for personal comfort or situational issues and times that I prefer CC. As there are an unlimited number of scenarios and variation of details that one can debate and situations there is also an unlimited number of variations in behavior, awareness, carry method, etc that effect the outcomes of such scenarios.

    It really doesn't matter if OC or CC is superior in a given situation. What matters is "shall not be infringed."
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

  10. #10
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    I have a CHP. I CC almost all the time--home, work, shopping, vacation (where allowed).

    I sometimes OC, but not often.

    I'll admit, deploying my firearm from an OC Serpa holster is WAY faster (by several seconds) than from my IWB thumb-snap Galco hidden under a shirt of jacket.

    OC is also WAY more comfortable-- My grips NEVER pinch into my side, the weight is distributed much more evenly on my belt (and by extension, my back and hips), and the slide never digs into my leg when I'm OC, no matter what position I'm in--sitting, standing, in the car. OC is just LOTS more comfortable, and much more quickly accessable. I don't think anyone would argue that, even when using the most high-tech, cutting edge, innovative CC rig.

    The only uncomfortable thing about OC is the strange stares I get from anti's, the hassle from uninformed LEO's, and being treated like a second-class citizen by some commercial establishments.

    The main reason I CC 99% of the time, is because the social, emotional, and intellectual "discomfort" of OC caused by closed-minded people, power-hungry LEO's, and fear-conditioned sheeple is WAY more uncomfortable to me than a little pinch on my side or having to adjust my grips when I get in or out of the car. The physical discomfort, to me, is WAY more easy to ignore than the social discomfort of being hassled, picked on, and made an example of in public.

    I agree that OC is MUCH more of a deterrent to criminals than CC. I mean, if you're properly CCing, then a criminal should not be able to tell you are any different than any other "mark", except for the way you present yourself. The "situational awareness" and "alert level" of a well-trained CC'er should act to keep most BGs away. They are NOT just looking for people who aren't armed--they are looking for people who are not "armed" INTELLECTUALLY or OBSERVATIONALLY. They look for people who are not aware of their surroundings, people who are not paying attention, are otherwise occupied mentally, or are purposefully "blocking out" the outside world by wearing headphones, or reading while they sit on the subway, or looking down when they walk.

    A well-trained CC'er should be telegraphing, by the actions of his eyes, ears, and body, that he is ACTIVELY taking in his environment, assessing his surroundings, and mentally taking not of everyone and everything around him. This level of awareness is enough to keep most BGs away--they don't like people who can give good descriptions...

    I'm a graphic designer and photographer by trade. My entire professional life is about observation, assessment, and descriptions. I enjoy people-watching, and I love architecture, and I'm fascinated by the social dynamics of crowds. When I'm out--carrying or not--I'm always looking at what's going on around me. I'm always checking for blind corners, and looking around behind things--not because I am paranoid, but because I'm an artist, naturally curious, and I enjoy seeing things in detail that most people don't even know exist. I watch "traffic patterns" in crowds, and am fascinated by that particualr dynamic.

    I think people's faces are interesting, and I'm particularly intrigued by their eyes. People who won't look me in the eye are instantly tagged in my mental notes as "someone to watch". People who stare back are too...

    One of my stepdaughters is a textile artist (that's art-school speak for clothing designer), so I'm also becoming VERY aware of how clothing drapes naturally on the human form. I see strange lumps all the time in people's clothes, and I imagine that 99% of the people out there never are even aware of, what to me, is OBVIOUSLY a very strange shape under someone's clothes. Most of the time, they are cellphones, ipods, or some other innocent item, but now and then, I see the tell-tale "print" of a Glock, or a 1911 or something else. I wonder how many other people out there even notice this, other than cops...

    As of June 2009, Beaufort County NC (where I live) had 811 current CHP's issued. The state of NC has a total of well over 158,000 CHP's currently issued and valid, statewide. That's a LOT of guns on hips. And how many anti's and non gun owners are aware of this? How many people out there would even thing to look for "printing" or know what they were seeing when they saw it?

    The general population has been trained over the last 20 or 30 years to NOT look at their environment. People rarely look you in the eye when they pass you on the street anymore, even when you address them in passing. Look at the crime reports--90% of the people who are victims of personal, random crimes can't give an accurate description of the BG's--heck most can't even get the color of "getaway cars" correct. We're living in a nation full of people who are willfully blind to their surroundings--it is a dream come true for criminals.

    I've never been mugged, carjacked, or assaulted (well, once I had a close call, but that's a different story). It's not because I don't present a desirable target--I make good money, dress nicely, pay for almost EVERYTHING when I shop or go out with cash, and I drive a new car. But I think a LOT of my personal history of an uneventful life is due to the fact that I am FASCINATED by the world around me, and I'm constantly taking it in, cataloging it, and assessing my situation and scoping out the interesting people and things around me.

    Active participation in one's environment is one of the BEST deterrent tools we have at our disposal, and will work in the VAST majority of times a BG is in your area. We don't need to carry because of the average pickpocket, or mugger, or whatever. We carry for those FEW times a BG is completely beyond rational thought, or when a crazy, irrational stalker is coming after us, or a BG is so messed up on crack he can't think straight. Most "professional" criminals are actually pretty astute, and only go for "easy targets".

    And someone who's "got their eyes on" isn't an easy target.

    So what I'm getting at, is this. In a perfect world where people weren't afraid of guns, we could all OC, and it wouldn't be an issue. But in a perfect world, we wouldn't NEED guns for defense, because everyone would be good, so the "perfect world" argument is sort of stupid...

    But since we live in an imperfect world, we need to weigh our options and decide how much discomfort we're willing to endure when it comes to our carry options.

    And personally, I believe that if I keep my EYES open, I should NEVER have to open my coat...

    Throwing our junk out there for people to see, ESPECIALLY when you know it's going to be an issue--is NOT going to win any friends among the citizenry OR the LE community...

    And that's my defense of my personal preference for CC. Sometimes it's just easier (at least socially, if not physically or tactically) to do. Being an "easy target" or having a "strong defense" is WAY more about what's in your head than what's on your hip...

    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Dreamer wrote:
    And that's my defense of my personal preference for CC. Sometimes it's just easier (at least socially, if not physically or tactically) to do.
    I think you're missing the entire point of this forum. I think (just my opinion after having read a metric s-ton of threads here) that the owners would like to get it into the "general public"'s mind that OC isn't an immediate danger to them. The hassle of the looks/conversations/cop-stops you encounter while OC are what they want to see disappear thru people actively OCing without fear of the sheeples.


    For every one of us, there are likely 10 of you. If all of you were more like us, you wouldn't have to be physically uncomfortable to avoid social discomfort, because the "general public" would be desensitized to seeing non-LEO with firearms.

    On the other hand, if all of us were more like you, OC might possibly be illegal. And I wouldn't be able to carry at all because I don't qualify for a Va CHP for another 4 years.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Wangmuf,

    I understand what this forum is supposed to be about. I "get" the whole reasoning behind OC, and I support it. But I also understand how successful activism works, and I've decided that I'd rather live my life quietly and work for the cause with my mind and my words than be an "overt activist" and have to attempt to overcome the attitudes that OCers regularly run into because their guns are visible.

    I regularly talk with local LEO's about OC. I figure that if I can get them aware about the laws here in NC, and that people have the right to OC per our State Constitution, Statutes, and Case Law, and that simply OCing is NOT a "stop-able" offense, it will head off a LOT of trouble in the long run for other OCers.

    I try and talk with business owners who have "No Guns" signs, and explain to them the faulty logic of their decision, in a clear, rational way, and usually try to give them some literature about NC gun rights. I hope that what I say to them, and my calm, rational demeanor and respectable appearance makes a positive impression, and might someday get them to change their policies.

    I understand that some folks enjoy the adreneline rush of overt activism. I understand that repetition of a socially unaccepted practice will desensitize the general public to the point where they eventually won't be shocked, frightened, or offended. These are all age-old tools of propaganda, and believe me, as a graphic designer and someone who has worked in Marketing, I am a bit of a student of propaganda and behavior modification. "In your face" activism works--there is no denying that. But it's not a tactic for everyone. And in some cases, it can actually INCREASE the public's lack of tolerance for your activities, and can serve to more fully polarize the public against you. And I think that our issue is one of those issues that is SO emotionally charged, and the minds of the people have been SO filled with negative propaganda that overt activism is perhaps not the best way to approach the situation.

    We live in VERY polarized times. The "leadership" of the "left" has been co-opted by people with a nany-state Socialist agenda. The "leadership" of the "right" has been co-opted by people with a Corporate Facist agenda of a One-World Government of total Control. Both "sides" are actually part fo the same coin--a coin that minted from the chains of oppression and valued in terms of usurious profit, social control, and Orwellian double-think. And NEITHER side is interested in being "public servants" anymore. We need to think "outside the Right/Left Dichotomy", and use the same obtuse, indirect, and subtle tactics they have so successfully employed, to counteract the VERY effective brainwashing that BOTH sides have used on the public with regards to firearms.

    What we need to do is not align with or against EITHER side. Don't give the "anti's" the chance to scream and panic. Don't give the NeoCons the chance to accuse you of being a revolutionary. We need to stress that this movement IS NOT so much about wearing a gun on our hip--it's about BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS, and the undeniable tenet that ALL humans have the right to be secure in their persons and property, and that self-defense is a fundamental human right. We need to appeal to the mothers, the single women, the intellectuals, the business owners--ALL sorts of people who have historically had their civil rights violated by oppressive "gun control" laws. And we need to do it in a way they understand--by showing them that self-defense is a basic human right, NOT something that is "allowed", and NOT something that the government even has a right to control or regulate.

    We need to abandon this whole "sheepdog" BS too. We, as responsible gun owners DO NOT somehow become the gatekeepers of civil safety and security for others. The law is very clear (and the morals and ethics of self-defense are pretty clear too) that you have the RIGHT to protect yourself against a deadly threat. You DO NOT become the "defender of the weak" just because you are handy with a shooting iron, and of the mind to carry it. Personally, I find the whole "sheepdog" discussion to be morally and ethically offensive. Nobody pins a badge on my chest when I strap on a gun, and I don't have ANY legal or moral obligation to come to the aid of anyone else. We don't carry guns for "community defense"--that what police are supposed to be for. We carry for SELF defense. Look it up in a dictionary--"self" is pretty clearly defined, and does NOT include more than one person, unless you have multiple personalities, in which case, you probably can't legally own a firearm anyway...

    How many people do you talk with every week about OC? I haven't been keeping a diary, but I know that last week, I spoke at length (over 15 minutes) to two people at my university--one student and one faculty. I spoke at length to my stepdaughter's boyfriend, and helped him do research on the laws in his state of residence for several hours over the course of last weekend. I spoke with the guy behind the gun counter at WalMart. I spoke with a middle-aged woman in a local gun store who was purchasing a Bersa .380 auto.

    I spoke with the assistant Chief of Police of my town of residence via phone. I've been discussing at some length, possible tactics for awareness campaigns and "empty holster" protests at my university with the local director of SCCC, and I've volunteered to design and print posters, flyers, and cards to hand out. I talked with two ECU campus police about their misconceptions regarding knives and other weapons on campus, and gave them copies of the State statutes.

    I've written to my State representatives (once a month, every month since July) regarding my desire for NC to overturn our "restaurant ban" and "venues that charge admission" ban. And I've talked to probably half a dozen of the guests at the hotel where I work about OC. And that's just been over the last week. I think I'm a very vocal and active member of the OC "cause", and I take every opportunity to educate, inform, and enlighten people about legal OC in my state.

    I'm currently pursuing getting my NRA certifications for CRSO, Pistol, and Defense Instructor, with the ultimate goal of getting my NC certification to be a CC instructor. And I'm taking my wife and one of my stepdaughters to the range when we get free time, to teach them how to safely and effectively handle and shoot rifle, shotgun, and pistol.

    What have you you done this week? This month?

    Are you just "preaching to the choir" by attending OC Meets and posting on a forum, or do you engage, educate, and inform real people in your day-to-day life-- people who are not obviously "in our camp"--in a rational, thoughtful, and non-confrontational way?

    The point I'm making isn't that I'm trying to "one up" you or anyone else. The point I'm trying to make is that I am VERY active in the OC movement, even if I don't choose to OC most of the time. I prefer to take a more intellectual path, and educate people by engaging them in conversations without having my firearm obviously displayed. I find that it "evens the playing field" a little. I find that it gives me an intellectual and authoritative edge when making my case. And after I get to know some of these people, and they are comfortable with me and consider me a normal, rational person, sometimes I'll pull out my CHP card and show it to them with a nod and a wink, so they will then realize that even people who look and act like them--people who are rational, peace-loving, and family oriented--sometimes are ALSO legally carrying a firearm, and there is absolutely NOTHING wrong or weird or posturing about it.

    I'm just saying that a person can be an active and effective advocate for OC without actually wearing their gun visibly all the time. That's all. I don't think less of people who do OC. But I think that perhaps it's not the best tactic for me. I'd rather "sneak it in" than be accosted by some anti and then have to defend my position verbally. I have found that if you want to "bring down a house", it's much more effective to think (and act) like a termite than a woodpecker.

    Contrary to you, I think that if everyone who had a CC permit were to take this tack--using their speech, their minds, and just a little bit of subtle behavior modification in their daily interactions with other people--it would do a WHOLE lot more to gain the sympathies of the public than if all us CHP holders were to just start to OC.

    But I'm a little puzzled about your comment about how you won't be eligible for a CC permit for 4 years. I can only think of two reasons that would be the case, but I'm going to wait for you to clarify that one, and not speculate...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  13. #13
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    The line about 'it's just easier' pretty much covers it.

    Some people just can't bear to have a bubble burst. That false safety brought to an unpleasent end. They lash out at the messenger.

    My messenger came armed and violently. For you, the luck of the draw will be your savior. Maybe you'll never have to find out the hard way. These 'hypotheticals' that aren't hypothetical, are examples. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. I made the mistake of believing that allowing a dangerous and violent situation to occur, and then try to grab my weapon and deescalate violence with a gun in my hand... It was total bull! I present my examples so that others my learn from that mistake, instead of have to learn the hard way.

    But if you can't let the bubble burst and deal with it, but lash out at others with tired old crap the Brady's still push... That's your choice. If you have to learn everything the hard way, that's your problem. You decided to kill the first messenger, lets hope the next messenger doesn't show up with a knife and grab your kid.

    A crowded place is not where you want to be aiming a handgun at a bad guy using your child as a human shield blocking COM. Headshot only option, with dozens upon dozens of other heads beyond the target? Knife at your kid's throat? CC lets it get that far. OC doesn't.

    We'll talk about maturity, and who has what it takes to carry a gun, when you explain how to TALK your way out of that like I did. But no matter what your argument, an ounce of prevention is still worth 20lbs of cure. CC has no hope of prevention, because a gun unseen is precisely that. It allows escalation to a point of use, where OC may remain holstered and be a passive deterrent. I think the people in that mall appreciated my drawn weapon a whole lot less than they would have been 'afraid' of seeing it 'strut about' and avoid the whole thing to begin with... I know which one I would have preferred. The argument that flies only when partially thought through, is not a valid argument.

    When the dynamics of CC defensive use are compared to OC, there is a whole lot less ego and 'manhood' involved in simply letting it be seen, than the secretive half-hope of 'ambushing' an aggressor after baiting him/her into attacking you so you can 'surprise' them.... Yes, I' being a bit sarcastic with that comment. But when are the anti OCers ever bashful about their sarcastic, insulting lines of bull? Facts on their face, the ones 'strutting' aren't the OCers. I don't particularly care who sees it, that's the point, EVERYONE knows. Wet your panties, or decide I'm not a good target, I don't care what is on the minds of those who see it. It isn't about everyone else. It is about me and mine, and both deserve better than CC.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  14. #14
    Regular Member 230therapy's Avatar
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    ixtow wrote:
    You're CCing [insert any location here]. You are casually approached by a man who asks you for the time (or directions, or if you can spare some change), but then demands that you keep your hands where he can see them, and turn around so he can take your wallet. He displays a knife.

    Now, what good is your 'element of surprise?' You can't use your hands or you'll get stabbed. You can't draw your weapon from cover because he is smart enough not to let you reach for your wallet, or anything else. He's going to get it himself. Even if you choose to make the move, he's going to stab you to death before you manage to draw from cover. Maybe you'll get lucky and take him with you, but you're still dead. You opt to submit, because at least then you'll get out alive. Wallet holster, my ass.

    While turning out your pockets, he discovers your Ruger LCP. Great. Now he has a knife AND a gun AND your wallet. He also knows you are not the sort to keep your mouth shut because gun owners don't take that crap lying down. He doesn't want any witnesses, and you've seen his face. He kills you with your own gun.

    If you were OCing, do you honestly believe that guy would have done that, after seeing the gun in plain view? Do you not think robbers/thieves watch and 'case' a person before doing such a thing?

    The only 'surprise' CC grants, is for those who do meet with the need, and realize that CC falls horribly short. The only person who can argue that CC present a 'tactical advantage of surprise,' is that person who has never actually needed it. The 'surprise' is all on you when you find yourself in such a position.
    The conclusions you make make it very clear to me that you are not very well trained at all.

    "You cannot use your hands at all or you'll get stabbed."

    That's a very definitive statement. How do you know this? Have you ever learned to fight with a knife? Part of knife training is fighting unarmed against an opponent with a knife. I HIGHLY suggest that you attend one of Larry Lindenman's training classes. You can find him on TPI (totalprotectioninteractive.com).

    If you are armed, do not comply. Do not allow him to search you. If you don't know what you're doing, it's a **** sandwich and be prepared for a big bite. Otherwise, the situation described does not have a GUN solution; it is a combatives problem.

    Does anyone here actually believe that the Founders were sitting around in John Adams' tavern UNARMED because they believed a bar should be a gun free zone?

  15. #15
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    230therapy wrote:
    ixtow wrote:
    You're CCing [insert any location here]. You are casually approached by a man who asks you for the time (or directions, or if you can spare some change), but then demands that you keep your hands where he can see them, and turn around so he can take your wallet. He displays a knife.

    Now, what good is your 'element of surprise?' You can't use your hands or you'll get stabbed. You can't draw your weapon from cover because he is smart enough not to let you reach for your wallet, or anything else. He's going to get it himself. Even if you choose to make the move, he's going to stab you to death before you manage to draw from cover. Maybe you'll get lucky and take him with you, but you're still dead. You opt to submit, because at least then you'll get out alive. Wallet holster, my ass.

    While turning out your pockets, he discovers your Ruger LCP. Great. Now he has a knife AND a gun AND your wallet. He also knows you are not the sort to keep your mouth shut because gun owners don't take that crap lying down. He doesn't want any witnesses, and you've seen his face. He kills you with your own gun.

    If you were OCing, do you honestly believe that guy would have done that, after seeing the gun in plain view? Do you not think robbers/thieves watch and 'case' a person before doing such a thing?

    The only 'surprise' CC grants, is for those who do meet with the need, and realize that CC falls horribly short. The only person who can argue that CC present a 'tactical advantage of surprise,' is that person who has never actually needed it. The 'surprise' is all on you when you find yourself in such a position.
    The conclusions you make make it very clear to me that you are not very well trained at all.

    "You cannot use your hands at all or you'll get stabbed."

    That's a very definitive statement. How do you know this? Have you ever learned to fight with a knife? Part of knife training is fighting unarmed against an opponent with a knife. I HIGHLY suggest that you attend one of Larry Lindenman's training classes. You can find him on TPI (totalprotectioninteractive.com).

    If you are armed, do not comply. Do not allow him to search you. If you don't know what you're doing, it's a @#$% sandwich and be prepared for a big bite. Otherwise, the situation described does not have a GUN solution; it is a combatives problem.
    You are correct, and I did frame the example as you describe. For a reason. A lot of people carry and just have a gun thinking that just having it is all they need. They never think about this stuff.

    Carrying a P-3AT in a leather wallet holster (which in time forms to the gun and is quite difficult to remove it) makes you a one-armed man while you try to draw it. think about fighting off a determined attacker with a knife with only one hand... I've never met a CCer who realizes how vulnerable the act of drawing from deep cover makes them.

    For someone that has all of this hitting their brain for the first time as it happens, the right choices are hard to make.

    Training and just plain mentally preparing is what these two threads are all about.

    Is propaganda really worth a refusal to prepare for or even recognize reality? That is essentially the question I am presenting.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  16. #16
    Regular Member 230therapy's Avatar
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    Fun threads.

    What really gets me is that people think they know what they're doing. Then, I go to a course and I see all sorts of stuff that is ineffective and/or inefficient...and the people performing in that manner believe the opposite.

    For example, I was watching "Women Cops of Broward County" (or whatever it's called). One of the cops was shown going to the range for "training". One segment showed her shooting from cover. She shot her gun to slide lock. She did her reload badly and incorrectly. She kept the gun out at 90% extension, dropped the mag, reached for the new mag, inserted it, and used the slide release to reload. Slow...and step by step...by the numbers. A beginner's mistake.

    What's scary is the fact that she thought she did it right and has proficiency in handgun shooting and operation.
    Does anyone here actually believe that the Founders were sitting around in John Adams' tavern UNARMED because they believed a bar should be a gun free zone?

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    Dreamer wrote:
    But I'm a little puzzled about your comment about how you won't be eligible for a CC permit for 4 years. I can only think of two reasons that would be the case, but I'm going to wait for you to clarify that one, and not speculate...
    I've been convicted of 2 class 1 misdemeanors in the last year.


    As for what I've done this month? Last week I turned a former sheep into a gun owner that's seriously considering OCing once he gets some range time behind him, and finds the answers to the legal questions he has. I've been approached by, and had conversations with complete strangers, both for and against gun ownership/carrying. While they may not leave the conversation feeling any differently than they did coming into it, they are usually a little better educated for it.


  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    OK, I'm going to try not to snap at you, but I've gotten incredibly annoyed reading your inane posts which bear only the most tenuous connection with reality.

    Dreamer wrote:
    I understand what this forum is supposed to be about. I "get" the whole reasoning behind OC, and I support it. But I also understand how successful activism works, and I've decided that I'd rather live my life quietly and work for the cause with my mind and my words than be an "overt activist" and have to attempt to overcome the attitudes that OCers regularly run into because their guns are visible.
    OK, right off the bat, you're going to have to stop completely making things up. Your position here is absurdly false. If you even OCed 1/10th as often as you pretend you do, you would realize how completely, utterly ridiculous you sound.

    OCers do not "regularly" run into "attitudes" they have to "overcome" because "their guns are visible". This is patently false.

    Some OCers are, rarely, hassled. Those who are unfailingly report every incident here.

    However, this is does magically equate to "regularly" just because every incident is reported on the fourm, and there are cumulated here numerous reports.

    When I am in Virginia, I OC everywhere. The only thing I "routinely" receive is support for the people I meet ("Hey, cool gun!" or "Hey man, good for you!").

    I have been asked to leave exactly one place, and had another clown tell me to conceal (illegal as I possess no permit) once (I did not comply, obviously).

    I reported both these incidents. But what I did not report was every day where I OCed without negative comment, or every positive incident. The positives and non-incidents account for easily 99% of the reactions OCers receive.

    Once again, the only "regular" occurrences were positive or not noteworthy occurrences at all.

    If you OCed, instead of trying to prove that it's better to hide in fear, you would already know this. But you don't. Telling, that.

    As long as you make things up and spew it as gospel fact while pretending to be "on our side", expect a negative reaction.


    Dreamer wrote:
    I regularly talk with local LEO's about OC. I figure that if I can get them aware about the laws here in NC, and that people have the right to OC per our State Constitution, Statutes, and Case Law, and that simply OCing is NOT a "stop-able" offense, it will head off a LOT of trouble in the long run for other OCers.
    Good for you.

    Dreamer wrote:
    I try and talk with business owners who have "No Guns" signs, and explain to them the faulty logic of their decision, in a clear, rational way, and usually try to give them some literature about NC gun rights. I hope that what I say to them, and my calm, rational demeanor and respectable appearance makes a positive impression, and might someday get them to change their policies.
    You want a pat on the back this time?

    Try insulting us by implication less, and praising yourself less as well. At this point, I really don't care how self-satisfied you are.



    Dreamer wrote:
    I understand that some folks enjoy the adreneline rush of overt activism.
    You, once again, demonstrate that you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

    Dreamer wrote:
    I understand that repetition of a socially unaccepted practice will desensitize the general public to the point where they eventually won't be shocked, frightened, or offended.
    You say that, but you don't sound as though you understand it.

    Dreamer wrote:
    These are all age-old tools of propaganda, and believe me, as a graphic designer and someone who has worked in Marketing, I am a bit of a student of propaganda and behavior modification.
    You expect this to impress me? Way to debase your character.

    Dreamer wrote:
    "In your face" activism works--there is no denying that. But it's not a tactic for everyone. And in some cases, it can actually INCREASE the public's lack of tolerance for your activities, and can serve to more fully polarize the public against you. And I think that our issue is one of those issues that is SO emotionally charged, and the minds of the people have been SO filled with negative propaganda that overt activism is perhaps not the best way to approach the situation.
    So, now we come down to it. You actually don't get it at all, as you're inexplicably convinced that people react negatively to OC.


    Dreamer wrote:
    We live in VERY polarized times. The "leadership" of the "left" has been co-opted by people with a nany-state Socialist agenda. The "leadership" of the "right" has been co-opted by people with a Corporate Facist agenda of a One-World Government of total Control. Both "sides" are actually part fo the same coin--a coin that minted from the chains of oppression and valued in terms of usurious profit, social control, and Orwellian double-think. And NEITHER side is interested in being "public servants" anymore. We need to think "outside the Right/Left Dichotomy", and use the same obtuse, indirect, and subtle tactics they have so successfully employed, to counteract the VERY effective brainwashing that BOTH sides have used on the public with regards to firearms.
    I agree with you. This is why I make such a fuss about my rejection of the false paradigm of partisan thought, especially where OCing. The last thing that is acceptable to me is my view of liberty being tainted by association with pigeonhole expectations of neoconservative rhetoric.

    Dreamer wrote:
    What we need to do is not align with or against EITHER side. Don't give the "anti's" the chance to scream and panic. Don't give the NeoCons the chance to accuse you of being a revolutionary. We need to stress that this movement IS NOT so much about wearing a gun on our hip--it's about BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS, and the undeniable tenet that ALL humans have the right to be secure in their persons and property, and that self-defense is a fundamental human right. We need to appeal to the mothers, the single women, the intellectuals, the business owners--ALL sorts of people who have historically had their civil rights violated by oppressive "gun control" laws. And we need to do it in a way they understand--by showing them that self-defense is a basic human right, NOT something that is "allowed", and NOT something that the government even has a right to control or regulate.
    You're right, but all the letter-writing to politicians won't ever on a cold day in Hell achieve this result. Nor will conversations with indoctrinated police. Only with so-called "overt activism" can the necessary social change be wrought. OC works, and if you cared to advance the cause you'd do it too, because your "covert" activism is what really serves only as back-slapping choir-preaching, and will never influence a single person.


    Dreamer wrote:
    We need to abandon this whole "sheepdog" BS too.
    I agree. It makes us sound smug, and retarded to boot.

    Dreamer wrote:
    We, as responsible gun owners DO NOT somehow become the gatekeepers of civil safety and security for others. The law is very clear (and the morals and ethics of self-defense are pretty clear too) that you have the RIGHT to protect yourself against a deadly threat. You DO NOT become the "defender of the weak" just because you are handy with a shooting iron, and of the mind to carry it. Personally, I find the whole "sheepdog" discussion to be morally and ethically offensive. Nobody pins a badge on my chest when I strap on a gun, and I don't have ANY legal or moral obligation to come to the aid of anyone else. We don't carry guns for "community defense"--that what police are supposed to be for. We carry for SELF defense. Look it up in a dictionary--"self" is pretty clearly defined, and does NOT include more than one person, unless you have multiple personalities, in which case, you probably can't legally own a firearm anyway...
    This is where you lost me again. If this argument of yours is so correct, why do the self-defense laws in basically every state make very little distinction between "self"-defense and "defense of others"?

    Is it my duty? No. Am I a sheepdog? No.

    Do I think that an armed citizenry has the potential to obviate the perceived necessity of a police state as the means of public security, without individual citizens taking on the role of "law enfarcement officers" and acting like cop-wannabes? Absolutely I do.

    Dreamer wrote:
    How many people do you talk with every week about OC? I haven't been keeping a diary, but I know that last week, I spoke at length (over 15 minutes) to two people at my university--one student and one faculty. I spoke at length to my stepdaughter's boyfriend, and helped him do research on the laws in his state of residence for several hours over the course of last weekend. I spoke with the guy behind the gun counter at WalMart. I spoke with a middle-aged woman in a local gun store who was purchasing a Bersa .380 auto.
    So, this time I should pat you on the back, right?

    Guess what, I do the same even here in SF. In Virginia, I talk to people every day, because I OC every day, and OC works. Easily more than just a 3 or 4 in-depth conversations a week, and even more brief ones.

    You could be doing more and better if you OCed. That's a fact.

    Dreamer wrote:
    I spoke with the assistant Chief of Police of my town of residence via phone. I've been discussing at some length, possible tactics for awareness campaigns and "empty holster" protests at my university with the local director of SCCC, and I've volunteered to design and print posters, flyers, and cards to hand out. I talked with two ECU campus police about their misconceptions regarding knives and other weapons on campus, and gave them copies of the State statutes.
    Good for you. Cookie this time?

    Dreamer wrote:
    I've written to my State representatives (once a month, every month since July) regarding my desire for NC to overturn our "restaurant ban" and "venues that charge admission" ban.
    Waste of time. No cookie for this.

    Dreamer wrote:
    And I've talked to probably half a dozen of the guests at the hotel where I work about OC. And that's just been over the last week. I think I'm a very vocal and active member of the OC "cause", and I take every opportunity to educate, inform, and enlighten people about legal OC in my state.
    You could do more if you OCed. It sounds like I actually talk to more people than you when I'm OCing.

    Dreamer wrote:
    I'm currently pursuing getting my NRA certifications for CRSO, Pistol, and Defense Instructor, with the ultimate goal of getting my NC certification to be a CC instructor. And I'm taking my wife and one of my stepdaughters to the range when we get free time, to teach them how to safely and effectively handle and shoot rifle, shotgun, and pistol.
    Ah, now it comes out. A professional shill-in-training. No wonder you want people to think OC is scary and "regularly" leads to "negative attitudes".

    (No offense to those who don't spread mistruths to bolster their business. I know many honest CC instructors exist).

    Dreamer wrote:
    What have you you done this week? This month?
    Minus the shill training, about the same as yourself.


    Are you just "preaching to the choir" by attending OC Meets and posting on a forum, or do you engage, educate, and inform real people in your day-to-day life-- people who are not obviously "in our camp"--in a rational, thoughtful, and non-confrontational way?
    There is no choir where I live. Then again, I don't OC here. I would if the law permitted, though. I'm not afraid of "negative reactions", like yourself.

    In Virginia, I go to meets for fun. I open carry in my day-to-day life, far more than often than I'll ever spend back-slapping those in complete agreement with my views.


    Sorry for my negative attitude. Like I said, expect that.

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    ixtow, have you looked into the dynamics and statistics of knife killings? From my studies and observation, it is very difficult to rapidly kill someone with a knife. It usually takes training and skill to kill someone with one or two stabs. Consequently, most knife slayings include dozens of stab wounds. It also usually takes multiple gunshot wounds and a long time to die from them. Action also beats reaction every time. For these reasons, I'll be drawing while he's waiting for me to comply. I may get a jab or two but he's getting a whole magazine; I like my odds.

    I would still rather scare him away before he pulls the knife. I also never deep conceal so draw time is not an issue.

  20. #20
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Francis Marion wrote:
    I would still rather scare him away before he pulls the knife. I also never deep conceal so draw time is not an issue.
    Do I really have to wait until he stabs me the unlikely to be fatal first half dozen times? ;-)

    Deep conceal is the only way to stay out of prison with your CC here... Printing is a Felony.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Undertaker's Avatar
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    The firstline of defenseis knowing you're not going to comply with any demands. The second lod is a good set of lungs to yell KNIFE as loud as you can. Any decent self defense class will teach that in the first 30 minutes.

  22. #22
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    ixtow wrote:
    Francis Marion wrote:
    I would still rather scare him away before he pulls the knife. I also never deep conceal so draw time is not an issue.
    Do I really have to wait until he stabs me the unlikely to be fatal first half dozen times? ;-)

    Deep conceal is the only way to stay out of prison with your CC here... Printing is a Felony.
    I'm running for the State Senate in Utah, not Florida so sorry, can't help you there.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Statesman's Avatar
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    Dreamer wrote:
    We don't carry guns for "community defense"--that what police are supposed to be for. We carry for SELF defense..
    Speak for yourself, and North Carolina, sir. The Kentucky Constitution (and the intent thereof) clearly indicates otherwise, as does Kentucky state law. I carry for the protection of myself and others, as directed by state law below.

    http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Legresou/Constitu/001.htm

    Seventh: The right to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the State, subject to the power of the General Assembly to enact laws to prevent persons from carrying concealed weapons.

    http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/503-00/070.PDF

    503.070 Protection of another.

    (1) The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when:

    (a) The defendant believes that such force is necessary to protect a third person against the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by the other person; and
    (b) Under the circumstances as the defendant believes them to be, the person whom he seeks to protect would himself have been justified under KRS 503.050 and 503.060 in using such protection.
    (2) The use of deadly physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when:
    (a) The defendant believes that such force is necessary to protect a third person against imminent death, serious physical injury, kidnapping, sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat, or other felony involving the use of force, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to KRS 503.055; and
    (b) Under the circumstances as they actually exist, the person whom he seeks to protect would himself have been justified under KRS 503.050 and 503.060 in using such protection.
    (3) A person does not have a duty to retreat if the person is in a place where he or she has a right to be.

    Effective: July 12, 2006
    History: Amended 2006 Ky. Acts ch. 192, sec. 4, effective July 12, 2006. -- Created 1974 Ky. Acts ch. 406, sec. 32, effective January 1, 1975.

    http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/503-00/110.PDF

    503.110 Use of force by person with responsibility for care, discipline, or safety of others.
    (1) The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when the defendant is a parent, guardian, or other person entrusted with the care and supervision of a minor or an incompetent person or when the defendant is a teacher or other person entrusted with the care and supervision of a minor, for a special purpose, and:
    (a) The defendant believes that the force used is necessary to promote the welfare of a minor or mentally disabled person or, if the defendant's responsibility for the minor or mentally disabled person is for a special purpose, to further that special purpose or maintain reasonable discipline in a school, class, or other group; and
    (b) The force that is used is not designed to cause or known to create a substantial risk of causing death, serious physical injury, disfigurement, extreme pain, or extreme mental distress.
    (2) The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when the defendant is a warden or other authorized official of a correctional institution, and:
    (a) The defendant believes that the force used is necessary for the purpose of enforcing the lawful rules of the institution;
    (b) The degree of force used is not forbidden by any statute governing the administration of the institution; and
    (c) If deadly force is used, its use is otherwise justifiable under this code.
    (3) The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when the defendant is a person responsible for the operation of or the maintenance of order in a vehicle or other carrier of passengers and the defendant believes that such force is necessary to prevent interference with its operation or to maintain order in the vehicle or other carrier, except that deadly physical force may be used only when the defendant believes it necessary to prevent death or serious physical injury.
    (4) The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when the defendant is a doctor or other therapist or a person assisting him at his direction, and:
    (a) The force is used for the purpose of administering a recognized form of treatment which the defendant believes to be adapted to promoting the physical or mental health of the patient; and
    (b) The treatment is administered with the consent of the patient or, if the patient is a minor or a mentally disabled person, with the consent of the parent, guardian, or other person legally competent to consent in his behalf, or the treatment is administered in an emergency when the defendant believes that no one competent to consent can be consulted and that a reasonable person, wishing to safeguard the welfare of the patient, would consent.

    Effective: July 1, 1982


  24. #24
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Suwannee County, FL
    Posts
    5,069

    Post imported post

    Dreamer wrote:
    We don't carry guns for "community defense"--that what police are supposed to be for. We carry for SELF defense.
    I find it odd to hear so much spoken of 'responsibility' and 'duty', yet when it comes to the civic responsibilities and duties, it all dries up... That's someone else's job...

    "I just work here." A pharase that has come to mean not just the company, but the whole country. You have no obligations except those bare minimums needed to snatch a paycheck, what a great attitude to have towards the nation you live in...

    Almost every State's defensive use of force law covers defense of others, not just yourself. I really would hate to be acquainted with the person who would leave their weapon holstered when observing another in desperate need.

    Not your problem, right? Despicable.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Alabama, ,
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    1,338

    Post imported post

    Just calmly ask the perp to use the knife as the gun is 'registered' and you wouldn't
    want him to get nabbed for the shooting. Of course you might get stabbed
    when he learns his new gun been 'fingerprinted'. But this falls under situational
    awareness, stranger comes up to you and wants to know the time does not mean
    you are free to drop your guard.

    I myself have not been getting any cooperation from the 'tazer' companies.
    I want to wire the contacts on holster so idiot gun grabber will have a change
    of heart. No replies to letters yet, and blank stares at booths. Since you are
    dealing with direct hand contact you don't need to penetrate clothing so
    smaller zapping model should still do the trick. But when I ask about getting
    remote leads so I can wire it up, hughhh? If they can send the charge down
    the wires of the shooting models, then I should be able to have a 6 inch lead
    to the release. Just use a mag holder to hide it. Leaning towards a smart card
    safety in watch to disable, if I am drawing it the watch will be there,
    someone else and my hands will be up, down at side, or on hood and it will
    be armed. It will force me to be cross draw for the middle option to work,
    but I can live with it for added security. About the only thing to worry about
    is a baltimore samurai, and since I don't go around robbing college kids I should
    be safe from that case.

    I might have to just go with the smart card release for now, that one alone
    should make for a fun encounter with the majority of gun grabbers out there.
    I just hate to go through all the time and expense for a half way job. Looks
    like about $175-$350 for the custom parts to make a smart release.
    Besides the children are having a fun time designing a warning label. :what:
    Now I can add "Caution Balloon Release, Don't Touch" to a long list.



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