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Reason Number 2

Undertaker

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The firstline of defenseis knowing you're not going to comply with any demands. The second lod is a good set of lungs to yell KNIFE as loud as you can. Any decent self defense class will teach that in the first 30 minutes. :banghead:
 

Francis Marion

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ixtow wrote:
Francis Marion wrote:
I would still rather scare him away before he pulls the knife. I also never deep conceal so draw time is not an issue.
Do I really have to wait until he stabs me the unlikely to be fatal first half dozen times? ;-)

Deep conceal is the only way to stay out of prison with your CC here... Printing is a Felony.
I'm running for the State Senate in Utah, not Florida so sorry, can't help you there.
 

Statesman

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Dreamer wrote:
We don't carry guns for "community defense"--that what police are supposed to be for. We carry for SELF defense..
Speak for yourself, and North Carolina, sir. The Kentucky Constitution (and the intent thereof) clearly indicates otherwise, as does Kentucky state law. I carry for the protection of myself and others, as directed by state law below.

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Legresou/Constitu/001.htm

Seventh: The right to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the State, subject to the power of the General Assembly to enact laws to prevent persons from carrying concealed weapons.

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/503-00/070.PDF

503.070 Protection of another.

(1) The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when:

(a) The defendant believes that such force is necessary to protect a third person against the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by the other person; and
(b) Under the circumstances as the defendant believes them to be, the person whom he seeks to protect would himself have been justified under KRS 503.050 and 503.060 in using such protection.
(2) The use of deadly physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when:
(a) The defendant believes that such force is necessary to protect a third person against imminent death, serious physical injury, kidnapping, sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat, or other felony involving the use of force, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to KRS 503.055; and
(b) Under the circumstances as they actually exist, the person whom he seeks to protect would himself have been justified under KRS 503.050 and 503.060 in using such protection.
(3) A person does not have a duty to retreat if the person is in a place where he or she has a right to be.

Effective: July 12, 2006
History: Amended 2006 Ky. Acts ch. 192, sec. 4, effective July 12, 2006. -- Created 1974 Ky. Acts ch. 406, sec. 32, effective January 1, 1975.

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/503-00/110.PDF

503.110 Use of force by person with responsibility for care, discipline, or safety of others.
(1) The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when the defendant is a parent, guardian, or other person entrusted with the care and supervision of a minor or an incompetent person or when the defendant is a teacher or other person entrusted with the care and supervision of a minor, for a special purpose, and:
(a) The defendant believes that the force used is necessary to promote the welfare of a minor or mentally disabled person or, if the defendant's responsibility for the minor or mentally disabled person is for a special purpose, to further that special purpose or maintain reasonable discipline in a school, class, or other group; and
(b) The force that is used is not designed to cause or known to create a substantial risk of causing death, serious physical injury, disfigurement, extreme pain, or extreme mental distress.
(2) The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when the defendant is a warden or other authorized official of a correctional institution, and:
(a) The defendant believes that the force used is necessary for the purpose of enforcing the lawful rules of the institution;
(b) The degree of force used is not forbidden by any statute governing the administration of the institution; and
(c) If deadly force is used, its use is otherwise justifiable under this code.
(3) The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when the defendant is a person responsible for the operation of or the maintenance of order in a vehicle or other carrier of passengers and the defendant believes that such force is necessary to prevent interference with its operation or to maintain order in the vehicle or other carrier, except that deadly physical force may be used only when the defendant believes it necessary to prevent death or serious physical injury.
(4) The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when the defendant is a doctor or other therapist or a person assisting him at his direction, and:
(a) The force is used for the purpose of administering a recognized form of treatment which the defendant believes to be adapted to promoting the physical or mental health of the patient; and
(b) The treatment is administered with the consent of the patient or, if the patient is a minor or a mentally disabled person, with the consent of the parent, guardian, or other person legally competent to consent in his behalf, or the treatment is administered in an emergency when the defendant believes that no one competent to consent can be consulted and that a reasonable person, wishing to safeguard the welfare of the patient, would consent.

Effective: July 1, 1982
 

ixtow

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Dreamer wrote:
We don't carry guns for "community defense"--that what police are supposed to be for. We carry for SELF defense.
I find it odd to hear so much spoken of 'responsibility' and 'duty', yet when it comes to the civic responsibilities and duties, it all dries up... That's someone else's job...

"I just work here." A pharase that has come to mean not just the company, but the whole country. You have no obligations except those bare minimums needed to snatch a paycheck, what a great attitude to have towards the nation you live in...

Almost every State's defensive use of force law covers defense of others, not just yourself. I really would hate to be acquainted with the person who would leave their weapon holstered when observing another in desperate need.

Not your problem, right? Despicable.
 

SlackwareRobert

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Just calmly ask the perp to use the knife as the gun is 'registered' and you wouldn't
want him to get nabbed for the shooting.:banghead: Of course you might get stabbed
when he learns his new gun been 'fingerprinted'. But this falls under situational
awareness, stranger comes up to you and wants to know the time does not mean
you are free to drop your guard.

I myself have not been getting any cooperation from the 'tazer' companies.
I want to wire the contacts on holster so idiot gun grabber will have a change
of heart. No replies to letters yet, and blank stares at booths. Since you are
dealing with direct hand contact you don't need to penetrate clothing so
smaller zapping model should still do the trick. But when I ask about getting
remote leads so I can wire it up, hughhh? If they can send the charge down
the wires of the shooting models, then I should be able to have a 6 inch lead
to the release. Just use a mag holder to hide it. Leaning towards a smart card
safety in watch to disable, if I am drawing it the watch will be there,
someone else and my hands will be up, down at side, or on hood and it will
be armed. It will force me to be cross draw for the middle option to work,
but I can live with it for added security. About the only thing to worry about
is a baltimore samurai, and since I don't go around robbing college kids I should
be safe from that case.

I might have to just go with the smart card release for now, that one alone
should make for a fun encounter with the majority of gun grabbers out there.:uhoh:
I just hate to go through all the time and expense for a half way job. Looks
like about $175-$350 for the custom parts to make a smart release.
Besides the children are having a fun time designing a warning label. :what:
Now I can add "Caution Balloon Release, Don't Touch" to a long list.
 

bomber

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I'm in favor of OC, however there is a one-word answer that could give you the time you need to draw your weapon from concealment

run.


if you get even a few feet of distance between you and your attacker, you have the advantage you need to draw.

this won't always work, but it works a lot better than just complying.
 

ixtow

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bomber wrote:
I'm in favor of OC, however there is a one-word answer that could give you the time you need to draw your weapon from concealment

run.

if you get even a few feet of distance between you and your attacker, you have the advantage you need to draw.

this won't always work, but it works a lot better than just complying.
But standing to the topic of this thread...

How many OCers have had 'an attacker' to call their own?

The point is that CC doesn't prevent, and the only 'element of surprise' is what you get when you realize your gun isn't that helpful tucked away and by itself.

Yes, there are ways you can find to give yourself an advantage and a better chance AFTER AN ATTACK HAS BEGUN. But OC is the only method of carry that actually PREVENTS it. CC, by definition and practice, cannot do that.

Is there any greater (defensive) advantage than prevention?

What I'm trying to shine a light on, is that so many CCers seem to think they have every advantage simply in the 'I have a gun and nobody knows' mindset. But they do not. They have better than nothing. And just barely.
 

jay75009

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bomber wrote:
I'm in favor of OC, however there is a one-word answer that could give you the time you need to draw your weapon from concealment

run.


if you get even a few feet of distance between you and your attacker, you have the advantage you need to draw.

this won't always work, but it works a lot better than just complying.

well to be technical. at frontsight i took a course on attackers with knives. at 10 feet it takes under 2.5 seconds for an attacker to go from standing 10 feet away, to having your intestines spilled by his blade.............2.5 seconds, it takes longer than that to light a cigarette. and in the training we did, 98% of students and LEO's can only un-holster and fire one single round in 2.5 seconds.

at a distance of a few feet i would not even go for my weapon, i would use hand-to-hand combat techniques to defend myself, and draw once i had removed the knife from the equasion.

one great thing i have learned from all the traning i've had in my life........my weapon can save my life, but only when im able to use it. if im not i need to be able to handle the situation without it.

EVERYONE should take hand combatives courses incase they find themselves in a situation where there is not enough time to draw your weapon.

kravmaga is a great technique for this btw

:celebrate
 

okboomer

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According to the training I have taken, don't let anyone get that close to you ... hold up youroff hand, palm out, place your strong handdiscretely on your weapon, and say, "Stop, don't come any closer!" when they are 12-14 feet away. If they continue to advance, "Stop, or I'll shoot!" That puts the decisive action in their hands, any subsequent action on your part is his responsibility.

The trick is to know when to do this, how to do it, and why to do it. Most civilian gun carriers don't get training at this level. As a CCL who carries 24/7, I am responsible for being able to carry safely and handle situations as they arise. I do not want my actions to become ammunition for those who want to limit or remove my right to self defense with a concealed handgun.

cheers ~~ okboomer
 

jay75009

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okboomer wrote:
According to the training I have taken, don't let anyone get that close to you ... hold up youroff hand, palm out, place your strong handdiscretely on your weapon, and say, "Stop, don't come any closer!" when they are 12-14 feet away. If they continue to advance, "Stop, or I'll shoot!" That puts the decisive action in their hands, any subsequent action on your part is his responsibility.

The trick is to know when to do this, how to do it, and why to do it. Most civilian gun carriers don't get training at this level. As a CCL who carries 24/7, I am responsible for being able to carry safely and handle situations as they arise. I do not want my actions to become ammunition for those who want to limit or remove my right to self defense with a concealed handgun.

cheers ~~ okboomer
+1 ;)
 

ixtow

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jay75009 wrote:
okboomer wrote:
According to the training I have taken, don't let anyone get that close to you ... hold up youroff hand, palm out, place your strong handdiscretely on your weapon, and say, "Stop, don't come any closer!" when they are 12-14 feet away. If they continue to advance, "Stop, or I'll shoot!" That puts the decisive action in their hands, any subsequent action on your part is his responsibility.

The trick is to know when to do this, how to do it, and why to do it. Most civilian gun carriers don't get training at this level. As a CCL who carries 24/7, I am responsible for being able to carry safely and handle situations as they arise. I do not want my actions to become ammunition for those who want to limit or remove my right to self defense with a concealed handgun.

cheers ~~ okboomer
+1 ;)
While I agree with most of wha tyou had to say, you're forgetting that you had to beg for permission, pay money, and be added to a list of suspects in order to practice that privilege. You don't have to do any of that to exercise a right.
 

bomber

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jay75009 wrote:
bomber wrote:
I'm in favor of OC, however there is a one-word answer that could give you the time you need to draw your weapon from concealment

run.


if you get even a few feet of distance between you and your attacker, you have the advantage you need to draw.

this won't always work, but it works a lot better than just complying.

well to be technical. at frontsight i took a course on attackers with knives. at 10 feet it takes under 2.5 seconds for an attacker to go from standing 10 feet away, to having your intestines spilled by his blade.............2.5 seconds, it takes longer than that to light a cigarette. and in the training we did, 98% of students and LEO's can only un-holster and fire one single round in 2.5 seconds.



:celebrate
yeah, if you are standing still. If you are running, well then they have to catch you before they can shank you.
 

jay75009

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bomber wrote:
jay75009 wrote:
bomber wrote:
I'm in favor of OC, however there is a one-word answer that could give you the time you need to draw your weapon from concealment

run.


if you get even a few feet of distance between you and your attacker, you have the advantage you need to draw.

this won't always work, but it works a lot better than just complying.

well to be technical. at frontsight i took a course on attackers with knives. at 10 feet it takes under 2.5 seconds for an attacker to go from standing 10 feet away, to having your intestines spilled by his blade.............2.5 seconds, it takes longer than that to light a cigarette. and in the training we did, 98% of students and LEO's can only un-holster and fire one single round in 2.5 seconds.



:celebrate
yeah, if you are standing still. If you are running, well then they have to catch you before they can shank you.
but you have to remember, most criminals are faster than us reg-joes lol they are used to being chased by the police..........im not putting my life into how fast my legs move haha
 

bomber

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thats a good point. however some of us are better at running than we are at hand to hand combat.

anyway, the point is, submitting to the mugger is not your only choice in the original post scenario. running may not be right for everyone or every scenario, but you are not necessarily gonna get killed just because you decided to CC instead of OC. Thats the problem with these 'scenarios', there is just no way to plan for everything.

for me, I am close to my physical prime, and I would be pretty confident that I stand a much better chance increasing my distance with an attacker than engaging in hand to hand combat. You gotta do what's right for you. for some that means punching his lights out, for others it means running and getting a chance to pull your weapon. for some it means OC, and for some it means CC.
 

KansasMustang

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Just me saying it, but I'd start running. A lot of long winded answers for a short possible fix. Yell and start running, put the fear of God in the guy , and draw your weapon as you start running, like I said just me saying it, but that's what I'd do.
Keep your powder dry!
 

okboomer

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ixtow wrote:
While I agree with most of wha tyou had to say, you're forgetting that you had to beg for permission, pay money, and be added to a list of suspects in order to practice that privilege. You don't have to do any of that to exercise a right.

You're right, the only place I have the right to defend myself with a gun is in my home/on my own property.

Privilege is the word I should have used, and hence my point about it being taken away :banghead:

I also have a hard time turning my back on a threat/weapon to run. Too chubby to run fast/far at this time (bad back, no exercise lately), also, law is on my side to stand my ground now. But there is a more important reason not to run.

Those using strong-arm robbery tactics will probably pass up someone OC if they see the weapon. Those on drugs and/or needing money/valuables for their next fix are not thinking clearly at all so it is questionable whether OC will deter them. And these are the ones I have seen lately using the "what time is it" ploy to get close. I believe they are operating so close to instinct that if you turn and run, it is like with a cat, it will probably trigger a chase response. Now, you have your back to a weapon/threat. Not good.

I believe it comes down to teaching criminals deterrant/avoidance of potential victims by assertively standing our ground. OC can go a long way towards this end.

On the other hand, some of the arguments I have seen in this state for concealed carry went like this:

If XX people are carrying concealed, then the BG doesn't know who may be armed, so it becomes a less-than-optimum chance to accost anyone for robbery.

The SDA was signed into law in 1995 in Oklahoma

The statistics from last year:
The number of index crimes decreased 8.6% from 1999 to 2008. The largest total for this ten-year period occurred in 2003. State of Oklahoma Uniform Crime Report Annual Report January - December 2008
Although last year did show an upward trend in all crimes compared with 2007 and before.

And then, for the ten years after the SDA was signed into law:
The number of index crimes decreased 13.6% from 1996 to 2005. The largesttotal for this ten-year period occurred in 1996. State of Oklahoma Uniform Crime Report Annual Report January - December 2005
It might be interesting to seethe FBI statistical comparison ... I do know that the FBI has stated that states with any type of citizen carry has a lower crime rate than ones without.

I also found out that in Oklahoma, assaults and robberies were most likely to be committed with a gun or fists, not knives. Interesting implication with the opening scenario.
 

ixtow

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"If XX people are carrying concealed, then the BG doesn't know who may be armed, so it becomes a less-than-optimum chance to accost anyone for robbery."

I used to make this argument myself. But, opportunist criminals rarely think of it, and it is rarely a problem for them. The odds are smaller than getting caught by other means, which they are already not concerned with. If you don't care about the 4% chance, why care about the 0.5% chance? Besides, how many times do ALL gun carriers mention that they repelled their attacker without killing them? We're good people, not bad people. And the Bad guys know that if they just go away if they make that mistake, they probably won't die, and probably still won't get caught.

Secondly, you refer to a collective effect, where the individual is prime. Crime control on a socialist level is still not good enough when the crimes still happen to the individual. As evidenced by the many stories of repelling an attack that has already begun show, the individual is still a victim. How many OCing individuals have the same stories to tell?

I've no desire to be the fact welfare any more than I've desire to be the crime prevention welfare. Not because I value my life more than others', but because the individual is the most granular resolution of a collective, and by making life best for the individual, it makes life best for all.

How may OCers report having to draw, point, or click? OC clearly has a far more immediate and dramatic effect of crime prevention than the belief that "the criminals will have to think twice." Sure, crime has gone down. Slightly. Over such long time frames, it is impossible and fraudulent to attribute it all to one cause. The simple reality of citing those statistics is that CC probably has little to do with it, the political environment that allows it has many sociological effects that reduce the desire and need to be criminal.

The (stupidly) taboo nature of OC is also beneficial. People talk. "That guy walks around with a gun whisper whisper whisper." Do you think his house gets broken into? His neighbors? His car? All of the lies and false-stereotypes generated by the media and anti's work to enhance the safety and security by their socially engineered attacks. Do you wanna mess with the crazy guy with the gun? He's obviously a nut, right? Everybody knows he's a paranoid tinfoil-hat wearing freak! He'll shoot you if you even talk to him! Sure, it's all an insulting, sarcastic, inflammatory lie. But for those who believe it; it just makes the Obvious Gun Owner (OCer) so much less desirable of a target...
 

Wangmuf

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okboomer wrote:
ixtow wrote:
While I agree with most of wha tyou had to say, you're forgetting that you had to beg for permission, pay money, and be added to a list of suspects in order to practice that privilege. You don't have to do any of that to exercise a right.

You're right, the only place I have the right to defend myself with a gun is in my home/on my own property.


I feel bad for you. I have the god-given right to defend myself against harm or death with whatever means I have available anywhere I am. Some places just choose to make certain tools illegal, or make you jump through hoops to carry them.


Edit: everything after illegal.
 

jay75009

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Wangmuf wrote:
okboomer wrote:
ixtow wrote:
While I agree with most of wha tyou had to say, you're forgetting that you had to beg for permission, pay money, and be added to a list of suspects in order to practice that privilege. You don't have to do any of that to exercise a right.

You're right, the only place I have the right to defend myself with a gun is in my home/on my own property.


I feel bad for you. I have the god-given right to defend myself against harm or death with whatever means I have available anywhere I am. Some places just choose to make certain tools illegal, or make you jump through hoops to carry them.


Edit: everything after illegal.

+1!

I have the Right and Responsibility to defend myself and my life from harm EVERYWHERE. just because i am not in my home does not mean any SOB out there has the RIGHT to take my life, or the lives of those around me because of a criminal act.

I DO have a RIGHT to shoot and kill any person who is activly attempting to kill me or anyone else no matter where i happen to be standing. I have a right to carry my weapon in a professional, expert , and safe mannor. wich gives me the right to use it to defend myself, and those around me. you try to take my life, or the life of an innocent person within acceptable range. i will use deadly force to stop you. and i do not care where i happen to bestanding or taking up space atthe current time :)
 
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