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Thread: Capital Building carry

  1. #1
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    Just a quick question,

    I get to chaparone for a 4th & 5thgrade class to the capital building and the Museum of Natural history. Once we leave, I will have nowhere to put a firearm if I can't carry in the Capital bldg.

    What is the rule about carrying in the Capitol building ??? For both open carry and for CWP ???

    I'm not worried about the museum, I know I can carry there.

    Thanks for you help. Hangman

  2. #2
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    There are no rules or laws governing carry at the Capitol Building. I have often stated that The Capitol should be THE PLACE to open carry in Utah! :celebrate

    With that said, you mentioned that you will be chaperoning school children. Utah law law is not written in our favor when it comes to "school zones". Note the parts in red. While I doubt the State Troopers will hassle anyone for open carry, a concealed firearm permit is necessary to avoid violating your temporary "school zone".



    76-3-203.2. Definitions -- Use of dangerous weapon in offenses committed on or about school premises -- Enhanced penalties.
    (1) (a) As used in this section and Section 76-10-505.5, "on or about school premises" means any of the following:
    (i) in a public or private elementary, secondary, or on the grounds of any of those schools;
    (ii) in a public or private vocational school or postsecondary institution or on the grounds of any of those schools or institutions;
    (iii) in those portions of any building, park, stadium, or other structure or grounds which are, at the time of the act, being used for an activity sponsored by or through a school or institution under Subsections (1)(a)(i) and (ii);
    (iv) in or on the grounds of a preschool or child-care facility; and
    (v) within 1,000 feet of any structure, facility, or grounds included in Subsections (1)(a)(i), (ii), (iii), and (iv).
    (b) As used in this section:
    (i) "Dangerous weapon" has the same definition as in Section 76-1-601.
    (ii) "Educator" means any person who is employed by a public school district and who is required to hold a certificate issued by the State Board of Education in order to perform duties of employment.
    (iii) "Within the course of employment" means that an educator is providing services or engaging in conduct required by the educator's employer to perform the duties of employment.
    (2) Any person who, on or about school premises, commits any offense and uses or threatens to use a dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-1-601, in the commission of the offense is subject to an enhanced degree of offense as provided in Subsection (4).
    (3) (a) Any person who commits an offense against an educator when the educator is acting within the course of employment is subject to an enhanced degree of offense as provided in Subsection (4).
    (b) As used in Subsection (3)(a), "offense" means:
    (i) an offense under Title 76, Chapter 5, Offenses Against The Person; and
    (ii) an offense under Title 76, Chapter 6, Part 3, Robbery.
    (4) If the trier of fact finds beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant, while on or about school premises, commits any offense and in the commission of the offense uses or threatens to use a dangerous weapon, or that the defendant committed an offense against an educator when the educator was acting within the course of his employment, the enhanced penalty for a:
    (a) class B misdemeanor is a class A misdemeanor;
    (b) class A misdemeanor is a third degree felony;
    (c) third degree felony is a second degree felony; or
    (d) second degree felony is a first degree felony.
    (5) The enhanced penalty for a first degree felony offense of a convicted person:
    (a) is imprisonment for a term of not less than five years and which may be for life, and imposition or execution of the sentence may not be suspended unless the court finds that the interests of justice would be best served and states the specific circumstances justifying the disposition on the record; and
    (b) is subject also to the dangerous weapon enhancement provided in Section 76-3-203.8


    Here is my family and carrying openly with Utah's top cop, Mark Shurtleff on the steps of The Capitol building.

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  3. #3
    Regular Member eBratt's Avatar
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    Utah law law is not written in our favor when it comes to "school zones"
    That cracks me up. It isn't ideal, for sure (ideal being if you are legal to own, you are legal to carry anywhere unless private property owner asks you to leave), but Utah has the best school carry laws of any state I have ever carried in.

    I suppose it is all about perspective. In most (if not all) other states, you'd be SOL on carrying at all on the school trip.
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good" - George Washington
    "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." - Mahatma Gandhi

    As always, insert standard IANAL disclaimer here.

  4. #4
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    I have a permit so it shouldn't be a problem. But I feel very uncomfortable without my sidearm. I do have a baton I can carry, but I'd prefer the sig.

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    eBratt wrote:
    Utah has the best school carry laws of any state I have ever carried in.
    ...for people that have concealed firearm permits. :X

    For people that don't have permits, school zones are EVERYWHERE! Even "beauty schools" could be considered a "school zone" in Utah.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    I open carry all the time at the Capitol. Only once have I been asked for my CFP. Other then that it has been positive.


    Zach
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    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"

  7. #7
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    I TOOK THAT PIC!!!

    hey sgt. jensen, do you still have a p22? i have a holster you can have that i THINK will fit a p22 just perfectly (i used it on a phoenix .22 but it was just a bit too big for the phoenix)

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    eBratt wrote:
    Utah has the best school carry laws of any state I have ever carried in.
    ...for people that have concealed firearm permits. :X

    For people that don't have permits, school zones are EVERYWHERE! Even "beauty schools" could be considered a "school zone" in Utah.
    what... wow ty for telling me, theres a beauty school in payson, like RIGHT across the street! looks like im a little law breaker aye?

    BUT doesnt the law state that "you may not KNOWINGLY carry in a school zone" or somethin like that

  9. #9
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    b1ack5mith wrote
    what... wow ty for telling me, theres a beauty school in payson, like RIGHT across the street! looks like im a little law breaker aye?

    BUT doesnt the law state that "you may not KNOWINGLY carry in a school zone" or somethin like that
    76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties.
    (1) A person may not possess any dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun, as those terms are defined in Section 76-10-501, at a place that the person knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is on or about school premises as defined in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1).
    (2) (a) Possession of a dangerous weapon on or about school premises is a class B misdemeanor.
    (b) Possession of a firearm or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises is a class A misdemeanor.
    (3) This section does not apply if:
    (a) the person is authorized to possess a firearm as provided under Section 53-5-704, 53-5-705, 76-10-511, or 76-10-523, or as otherwise authorized by law;
    (b) the possession is approved by the responsible school administrator;
    (c) the item is present or to be used in connection with a lawful, approved activity and is in the possession or under the control of the person responsible for its possession or use; or
    (d) the possession is:
    (i) at the person's place of residence or on the person's property;
    (ii) in any vehicle lawfully under the person's control,
    other than a vehicle owned by the school or used by the school to transport students; or
    (iii) at the person's place of business which is not located in the areas described in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1)(a)(i), (ii), or (iv).
    (4) This section does not prohibit prosecution of a more serious weapons offense that may occur on or about school premises.


    Now you know.

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  10. #10
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    LOL!!!!

  11. #11
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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    b1ack5mith wrote
    what... wow ty for telling me, theres a beauty school in payson, like RIGHT across the street! looks like im a little law breaker aye?

    BUT doesnt the law state that "you may not KNOWINGLY carry in a school zone" or somethin like that
    76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties.
    (1) A person may not possess any dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun, as those terms are defined in Section 76-10-501, at a place that the person knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is on or about school premises as defined in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1).
    (2) (a) Possession of a dangerous weapon on or about school premises is a class B misdemeanor.
    (b) Possession of a firearm or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises is a class A misdemeanor.
    (3) This section does not apply if:
    (a) the person is authorized to possess a firearm as provided under Section 53-5-704, 53-5-705, 76-10-511, or 76-10-523, or as otherwise authorized by law;
    (b) the possession is approved by the responsible school administrator;
    (c) the item is present or to be used in connection with a lawful, approved activity and is in the possession or under the control of the person responsible for its possession or use; or
    (d) the possession is:
    (i) at the person's place of residence or on the person's property;
    (ii) in any vehicle lawfully under the person's control,
    other than a vehicle owned by the school or used by the school to transport students; or
    (iii) at the person's place of business which is not located in the areas described in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1)(a)(i), (ii), or (iv).
    (4) This section does not prohibit prosecution of a more serious weapons offense that may occur on or about school premises.


    Now you know.
    HA i knew i saw that somewhere! so if a cop stops you for OCing near a school and you truthfully didnt know (and you dont have a CWP) then youre in the green...

    probably :P

  12. #12
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    b1ack5mith wrote:
    HA i knew i saw that somewhere! so if a cop stops you for OCing near a school and you truthfully didnt know (and you dont have a CWP) then youre in the green...

    probably :P
    Actually, your defense lawyer is in the green as you spend a boatload convincing a judge or jury that you did not know (logically impossible to prove a negative so you get to try to persuade them you are honest and all) and should not have "reasonably known" that you were in a school zone.

    We might argue about the odds of being charged under the gun free school law as applied to post secondary tech or trade schools or even temporary school uses of places where otherwise legal to carry without a permit. And were I a betting man, I'd wager you've got better than even odds of being acquitted in most cities in Utah. But an acquittal won't get you back the time, money, agony, and hassle. And barring some really egregious conduct on the part of the cops, a ticket or arrest for carrying in a school zone, sans permit, is not going to be grounds for a civil suit. Not to mention the fact that for all your trouble to be acquitted, you've now been more than fully informed about the existence of the school zone and can never again play the "I didn't honestly know card." Indeed, even at this point, were you to be cited, you are almost certainly going to have to take the stand in your own defense to convince a jury you didn't know. While you can honestly do that for random school zone, what are you going to do if is the school zone across the street? Lie under oath? Probably not.

    That said, the post secondary and temporary school activity school zones are created under Utah, not federal law. And so your permit from Maine or anywhere else covers you in those area for both OC and CC.

    The real answer of course, is that we need to shrink Utah's gun free school zones down to at least only those areas covered by federal law. The post secondary and temporary school activites need not to be considered school zones.

    Legislative session is coming up. Start contacting your State reps and senators.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  13. #13
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    well, i think "school zone" should mean the sign you drive by that has flashing lights, and it says "end of school zone" i think that would be fair

  14. #14
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    I OCed my (at that time) S&W 4006 in a Goodrich&Gould shoulder holster and my Kimber in a serpa holster on the right strong side at the Capitol when the Declaration of Independence was there. I meet Sgt Jensen, wife & kids there, who also of course OCed:celebrate

    Hangman wrote:
    Just a quick question,

    I get to chaparone for a 4th & 5thgrade class to the capital building and the Museum of Natural history. Once we leave, I will have nowhere to put a firearm if I can't carry in the Capital bldg.

    What is the rule about carrying in the Capitol building ??? For both open carry and for CWP ???

    I'm not worried about the museum, I know I can carry there.

    Thanks for you help. Hangman

  15. #15
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    HEY ITS TJ! long time no post! :P

  16. #16
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    Nice to see you again TJ! Good to have you back - stick around and come to the next meet.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    Good to have you back TJ I hope to see you posting more often.
    Zach
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    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"

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