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Thread: Private property rights question

  1. #1
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    I know you can’t OC anyplace that sells alcohol without a CPL, However if the property owner says its ok does that trump the law? Example situation: The local corner store sells food, smokes and liquor. Can said store owner put up a Open Carry welcome sticker and allow non CPL holders to OC in his store?

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Not unless they work for him. This was asked awhile back in relation to a fellow carrying in a bar ....
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

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    The owner can put a OC Welcome up and allow OCing IF he/she is the owner, permitting you to carry in the store, trumping that law as privet property, I believe.

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    If he has a liquor license, its lights out. That is how I interpret the law, I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. That's just how I understand it.
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    eastmeyers wrote:
    If he has a liquor license, its lights out.* That is how I interpret the law, I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.* That's just how I understand it.
    +1. If it's a CEZ, you can't carry there (unless you have a CPL- then you may legally carry openly), even with permission. No one can give you permission to break the law.

    The ONLY exception is that if it's a church. With permission of the governing body/head of church, you may legally carry concealed on the premises. (get that in writing if you don't want a lengthy legal battle).

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    When talking about Liquor licenced Establishments...He can carry OC there with the owners permission. He can CC there with the Owners permission the only place he can't CC at is a place that make the majority of sales from alcohol. See below. A non CPL holder can not carry CC off the property he has permission to carry on.

    I would want something in writing that said you could carry on his property. I don't know if a sign on the door would be enough as you might run into trouble if you are there and the owner is not and an employee doesn't know the rules and call the cops.

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.



    The only places you can't carry concealed with permission without a CPL are below. Notice the alcohol related restricted place is defined in d).

    5o of the Act. Those exceptions, commonly referred to as "gun free zones," include the following:

    a) A school or school property . . . .

    b) A public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency.

    c) A sports arena or stadium.

    d) A dining room, lounge, or bar area of a premises licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998 . . . . This subdivision shall not apply to an owner or employee of the premises.

    e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.

    f) An entertainment facility [that has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more]....

    g) A hospital.

    h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university. [Section 5o(1).]

    Section 12a of the Act expressly exempts certain persons from the requirements of the Act, including:


    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.



    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Venator wrote:
    When talking about Liquor licenced Establishments...He can carry OC there with the owners permission. He can CC there with the Owners permission the only place he can't CC at is a place that make the majority of sales from alcohol. See below. A non CPL holder can not carry CC off the property he has permission to carry on.

    I would want something in writing that said you could carry on his property. I don't know if a sign on the door would be enough as you might run into trouble if you are there and the owner is not and an employee doesn't know the rules and call the cops.

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.



    The only places you can't carry concealed with permission without a CPL are below. Notice the alcohol related restricted place is defined in d).

    5o of the Act. Those exceptions, commonly referred to as "gun free zones," include the following:

    a) A school or school property . . . .

    b) A public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency.

    c) A sports arena or stadium.

    d) A dining room, lounge, or bar area of a premises licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998 . . . . This subdivision shall not apply to an owner or employee of the premises.

    e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.

    f) An entertainment facility [that has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more]....

    g) A hospital.

    h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university. [Section 5o(1).]

    Section 12a of the Act expressly exempts certain persons from the requirements of the Act, including:


    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.


    That's what I was looking for. thanks

  8. #8
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    Private property trumps State law on possession!

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    I believe the liquor law concerns bar selling open intoxicants, not liquor stores or grocery stores that sell liquor.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    chaneyd wrote:
    I believe the liquor law concerns bar selling open intoxicants, not liquor stores or grocery stores that sell liquor.
    From MCL 750.234d

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    This works out to be ANY establishment that is licensed to sell alcohol in ANY capacity.

    Of course there are the exceptions .....

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

    Don't get the CC pistol free zones and the general firearms (OC) pistol free zones mixed up.

    Bronson
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    Dansjeep2000 wrote:
    I know you can’t OC anyplace that sells alcohol without a CPL, However if the property owner says its ok does that trump the law? Example situation: The local corner store sells food, smokes and liquor. Can said store owner put up a Open Carry welcome sticker and allow non CPL holders to OC in his store?
    Interesting question that I have no real about but it makes me think about ifone considers theliquor store as private property and can overide laws how about other stores that want to do the opposite and ban guns that are normally allowed. I see a lot of comments on here about a business that opens its doors to the public is no longer "private" property so how does that fit in here?

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    PT111 wrote:
    Dansjeep2000 wrote:
    I know you can’t OC anyplace that sells alcohol without a CPL, However if the property owner says its ok does that trump the law? Example situation: The local corner store sells food, smokes and liquor. Can said store owner put up a Open Carry welcome sticker and allow non CPL holders to OC in his store?
    This is incorrect. Open carry in a store that sells liquor is NOT illegal. If that were true, we wouldn't be allowed inside Meijer or Walmart or any grocery store,etc. They sell alcohol. It's open drinking as in a bar that is illegal.
    Interesting question that I have no real about but it makes me think about ifone considers theliquor store as private property and can overide laws how about other stores that want to do the opposite and ban guns that are normally allowed. I see a lot of comments on here about a business that opens its doors to the public is no longer "private" property so how does that fit in here?

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    chaneyd, please review Bronsons post:

    Bronson wrote:
    chaneyd wrote:
    I believe the liquor law concerns bar selling open intoxicants, not liquor stores or grocery stores that sell liquor.
    From MCL 750.234d

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    This works out to be ANY establishment that is licensed to sell alcohol in ANY capacity.

    Of course there are the exceptions .....

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

    Don't get the CC pistol free zones and the general firearms (OC) pistol free zones mixed up.

    Bronson
    Without a CPL, you may not carry into a store which sells alcohol in any capacity. This includes those places you have mentioned. Last time I checked, most people here have their CPL, which is why you see so many stories of people carrying into those places without issue. Walk into a store which sells alcohol, and you could face charges. Legitimate charges.

    Underlined below is the portion of law you are confusing. It has to do with concealing a handgun.



    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.Sec. 5o.
    (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.
    (b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.
    (c) A sports arena or stadium.
    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

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    I stand corrected.

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