imported post
fully_armed_biker wrote:
O1 being the officer that innitiated the stop. So, by your definition, and his...he can just randomly stop ANYONE and search them to make sure they aren't breaking any laws.
A stop for a firearms-related issue is not dependent on "Probable Cause", it may be initiated on "Reasonable Suspicion". The burden or proof for reasonable suspicion is MUCH lower than probably cause.
OC is still relatively rare. Most citizens don't even know it's legal in most states. LEO's should know if it's legal in their state, but just because something is legal doesn't mean it is always free of the appearance of being lawful.
Say for instance that I own an arcade. It's Saturday afternoon. Unbeknownst to me, the local college is hosting a computer programmers conference, and at 11:00 they let out for the day, and my arcade is suddenly beset upon by several dozen computer-gaming geeks with pockets full of singles. My change machine is runnign low, so I pull a few hundred out of the till and jog down to the bak on the corner, to get it changed into quarters. I then jog out of the bank with a big bank bag, just as a copis drivng by. Doe he hav "reasonable suspicion" that I may be up to no good? ou tell me. A guy runs out of a bank with a heavy bank bag and jogs down the street with a worried look on his face? What you you do, if you were driving the cruiser? Thsi would be a TOTALLY justifiable (although terribly annoying to the arcade owner) stop. It is legal? Yep. Were the arcade owners actions illegal? Not at all. Could his action in any way be perceived as somehow suspicious? Certainly, to an uninformed outside observer.
If someone calls in a MWAG, or a LEO sees you walking down the street OC, you can bet that 99.999% of the time there is GOING to be official interaction of some sort. It all depends on the officer's personal beliefs, your appearance and demeanor, the location (neighborhood) where he became aware of your firearm, and whether you alone or with other people as to how such interactions will proceed.
I would like to see a scientific study on how many criminals are actually apprehended through such stops. I would venture a guess that nation-wide, in total, it's somewhere in the low double digits annually. Here in NC, I would be surprised if such stops resulted in more than a half-dozen legal apprehensions of real criminals in a year...
Stopping OCers serves only one REAL function--to intimidate OC activists and attempt to re-establish "power-over" on the part of LE. It does not serve to actually catch criminals, nor does it serve to deter any sort of criminal behavior. In fact, such action ONLY serves to take valuable LE resources away from doing their REAL job, which is investigating REAL crimes and apprehending REAL BGs...
The issue of OCers being stopped, searched, detained, and treated rudely is something we need to work on as an integral part of our OC activism. In states where OC is legal, and there is statutory and case law support for it, we need to take every opportunity to educate our local LEO's AND our local citizens. Filing a formal complaints when we are harassed is a good place to start.
Memorizing specific statutes and case law rulings is a good idea too. If you can counter the threat of a bogus charge by citing statutes and case law off the top of your head, the offending LEO will know right away that you have done your research, and are, at least, knowledgeable, and at best, a VERY well-versed activist who may have "connections". He will know right away that you aren't someone he can push around and threaten with bogus charges and threats of prosecution. It's a game of authority and control. When they know that YOU know that they don't hold a position of legal authority or superior knowledge of the law over you, they will most likely back down.
Throwing out the names of other local LEOs who you know are sympathetic to the cause can also be helpful. I have spoken with our local Asst. Chief of Police, and he has informed me that OC and CC are both perfectly legal on city property in this town I have this recorded and on my iPhone. If I'm ever stopped, I intend to inform the officer that "Major Sxxxx Bxxxxxxx informed me that there are no city ordinances prohibiting the carrying of a firearm in Washington, and the State of North Carolina allows OC as well." If they persist or try and threaten me with a GATTTOTP charge, I have memorized the exact wording of the GATTTOTP statute, AND the final ruling from "State of NC vs. Huntly" which states that "it is to be remembered that the carrying of a gun, per se, constitutes no offense. For any lawful purpose--either of business or amusement--the citizen is at perfect liberty to carry his gun." AND I have these texts both on my iPhone, and on pocket cards...
Information is power. And many of these LEO's making these stops are just trying to re-establish "power over" with a person they perceive as stepping outside of their preconceived Cop/Citizen/BG power structure. If we can demonstrate that we KNOW our rights, we KNOW the law, and we KNOW the limitations and contraints under which THEY should be acting, we will go a long way to changing this attitude among the LE community. They CAN and the WILL make things difficult for us, because we are challenging their "power over" position. LE believes that they have the right to a "monopoly of force", and a BIG part of the agenda of the OC movement should be to dispell that belief, and re-establish in the mind of th public--including our "public servants"--that ALL citizens have the BASIC HUMAN RIGHT to self-defense, and that carrying the tools of that activity pose no threat to LEO's, our communities, or other law-abiding people.
I am fortunate enough to live in a state that has a "right to keep and bear arms" clause in it's State Constitution. So when it comes to 2A issues, I've technically got a double protection and guaranty of this right. Case law and statutory law is also relatively clear, with the exception of the GATTTOTP statute (which is an old law based in racist and classist rulings derived from 17th century English Common Law). And if you know the REAL wording, meaning, and application of this statute, it is a statute that is simply and absolutely NOT applicable in the case of walking peacefully down the street with a gun in a holster. It's a four-pint statute, and for a charge to stand, the prosecution must establish that you were guilty of all four points. Walking in public peaceably with a holstered firearm does not meet that burden of proof. And "State vs Huntly" further clarifies and strengthens this interpretation, and supports the right to legally OC in NC.
All that said, please be informed that IANAL.
I suggest you seek professional legal advice if you wish to pursue this to the point of filing an action against your local LE department.
