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Thread: How to handle Medical/Accident while CC/OC

  1. #1
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    Are there any sites, postings, books, etc that discuss handling of firearms that may be found or carried during a response to a Medical Emergency or Accident? (Civilian side)

    If I'm OC/CC and involved in a TA what actions should I take? What actions can I expect a LEO/EMT/Paramedic to take when I'm carrying? Understand the steps/requirements may be different when I have only minor injuries vs. serious injuries or unconscious. Also what about transport via ambulance?

    If I stop to help at a TA and one of the victims is OC/CC, what actions should be taken? Conscious and able to give consent? Unconscious? Legal issues? (Concealed legally vs illegally)

    I know in the Military we talk about this. I ensured my Medical crew on my ship went through training with our GM's on how to "safe" various weapons even those we did not normally carry. Also had an SOP on how and when to secure a weapon, and also who/when to turn it over. We had Medical personnel on boarding/security teams, and this was all part of our training. We were qualified at least in 9mm/Shotgun at a minimum. Not sure how we would deal with it on the civilian side.

    As more and more people OC/CC I see this interaction becoming more common.

    Appreciate all thoughts!

    Thanks!

    Ken



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    Well, if you are a part of the accident, don't let the LEOs take custody of your firearm. There's a thread around here somewhere where that happened. The owner had to go to the hospital and gave his firearm to the LEOs that responded.

    They are taking the opportunity to go over his firearm witha fine tooth comb to ensure it's fully legal and legit, never been used in a crime, etc... all without RAS.

    I would think that it'd be better to give your firearm to a trusted 3rd party (like friend, relative, spouse, legal age children, etc) instead of to LEOs. Either that or keep it on you.

    Responding as a good samaritan, it would probably be a good idea to secure the weapon so it cannot go bouncing around or whatnot if the carrier is unconscious / unresponsive. Beyond that, I wouldn't do anything special.

    A lot of the rules the military SOPs have are often based on good ideas / common sense / things that work. They would make for a good starting point.

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    Regular Member hopnpop's Avatar
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    darthmord wrote:
    I would think that it'd be better to give your firearm to a trusted 3rd party (like friend, relative, spouse, legal age children, etc) instead of to LEOs. Either that or keep it on you.

    Responding as a good samaritan, it would probably be a good idea to secure the weapon so it cannot go bouncing around or whatnot if the carrier is unconscious / unresponsive. Beyond that, I wouldn't do anything special.
    Wellyou sure can't take it with you to the hospital.Chances are that if you're concious but need ambulatory transport, an officer will most likely have to take posession of the gun. I don't think it'd be rational to think you could wait for someone else to come get it for you before transport. And that sucks. I wouldn't care except for having heard of that same nightmare mentioned above where an accident victim/patient voluntarily gave his gun to an LEO as he was going ambulatory - but when he tried to get it backhe couldn't because it hadn't gone thru the ballistic test yet. It's their policy to fire every gun that comes into their posession to compare to guncrime chit. Can I get a W.T.F.?

    If you were unconcious, the only thing an EMT should do is alert anLEO that you're armed andthe LEO would then take posession of the gun.

    As a 3rd party responder to a TA with an armed patient, I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean by "secure" the firearm. I'm imagining it to be already secure, as in, still in a holster, worn by the patient. If concious but dazed I might ask to take posession but I'm not sure. If unconcious, I don't think you should do anything with it, notify emergency responders of the situation and stay hands-free of it. ...Ya? No?

    No one has ever walked away from a gunfight complaining that he brought too much ammo.

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    Just an amusing story and not advice....

    Unbeknown to me I was busy having a heart attack when I showed up at the Doc's office to schedule an appointment because I didn't feel so good. When I described my symptoms I was whisked off into the back room and EKG'ed and all that stuff. Then I was told the ambulance had been called and I was going to the hospital with a heart attack so just lay still and wait.

    And then I told them I was armed. Uh oh..... blank stares and big blinks all around. Then the inevitable question... "Is it loaded?"..... sigh.... The nurse returned with a paper bag and said the Doc would put the guns in his safe... I said I'd put the guns in my truck and call my son. He told the nurse to wheel me out in a wheelchair to my truck.. I secured the guns... called my son to pick up my truck... got wheeled back inside for a few moments... and hauled off to the hospital.

    Picked up my truck and guns (guns as in ... primary and BUG) later in the week.

    Why didn't I leave the guns in the Doc's safe? I have no idea who has access to that safe... maybe drugs are secured in that safe and office personnel have access? But still... kudos to the Doc for handling the situation without fuss.

    Anyway....

    If I'm in a TA where I am going to the hospital immediately I don't think I will be worried if the police take custody of my guns for a while. I think I'll have more important things to be concerned about.

    Although there is the thought that a gun where folks are injured or dazed after a TA may not be a good thing and disarming temporarily might be a good thing... it might be a bit difficult/dangerous to do or exacerbate things too. So I don't know what I'd do.... probably what ever seemed logical at the time. And maybe allowing emergency response folks to follow their procedures might be the best option because if the guy/gal is so hurt they are heading to the hospital... they have more important things to worry about than if the police have their gun temporarily.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    if you are involved in an accident involving a vehicle and you are not responsive enough to determine where the weapon will go, the police will take it and secure it until you are able to retrieve it. this usually means taking it to the station and running checks on it... but they are SUPPOSED to just hold it for you.

    an emt/paramedic can react two ways, if theyre like me i would just secure the weapon, clear it, and put it somewhere safe til police show up. if theyre like alot of pussies i know, they will run back to the ambulance and wait til cops have secured the scene (which is textbook answer)

    if you're conscious it gets more confusing cause they dont know your intentions so theyll probly just retreat and wait for police if they see a gun. being as im in AZ and everyone carries, if i see a normal looking person with a gun on their side im probly not going to freak too much BUT iv seen normal/sain people do crazy stuff when they have head trauma or maybe diabetic or something. people get VERY combative and aggressive when they are disoriented.

    if the person with the gun is alert and completely fine (say he t-boned someone) and the "un-armed" person who is hurt needs the care, i could care less if your carrying.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    My thoughts are that what you do depends on the situation, and your then-current physical and psychological situation.

    I was recently in a car wreck. Both hands got smashed up quite badly - lots of pain and inability to grasp with either hand. Very painful to pull my cellphone and dial 911. Just looking at the car I knew it was 1) going to be towed because it was not drivable, and 2) it would be staying in a tow yard for some time before the insurance company & I decided what disposition to make.

    I had one pistol on me, and several in a range bagin the car. I was over 2 hours away from home and it would be longer than that before anybody could get to me. By then the car would be in a tow lot and who knew when I would be able to get there to recover my possessions. If I had been physically able to, I would have tried to recover my pistols from the car and take them, in the range bag, with me on the ambulance ride to the Emegency Room. But I was not.

    What to do? Leave them in the car and let it get towed? Tell the responding LEO and ask him to get them out and hand them over to me? Ask the responding LEO to take custody and secure them?

    Oh! The ambulance folks are telling me "Get in and we are leaving for the ER now, or we leave you her in the middle of the intersection." No time to get a receipt from the LEO if I want to get to the ER and get treatment for my two hands that do not work and hurt like heck.

    I got lucky. The responding LEO said he would bag & tag them and keep them in the trunck of his cruiser till he went off shift. If I could connect with him before then I could get my pistols back then - if not he would turn them in and prepare a receipt I could pick up at my convenience, and then return the next business day to claim them from Property.

    (Insert here a commercial for having & using a digital voice recorder. I turned mine on as I was trying to exit the vehicle and call 911. Kept it on all througfh the ER experience, so it had recorded the conversation with the LEO about the pistols.)

    I got doubly lucky - I got out of the ER and had someone come for me before his shift ended. We connected with the LEO and I got my pistols back - no problems.

    Could I have been screwed over instead? Sure, it was possible. But I saw it as take that risk or take the risk of leaving several pistols unsecured as the car was towed to a storage lot. At least with having the LEO secure the pistols I knew where they were and could come back later, if needed, with proof of ownership and evidence the LEO had received them from me at the scene.

    As they say, YMMV.

    Again, it depends on the circumstances. Like me, you may have to decide on the fly, no matter what you had planned out in your "just in case" thinking.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
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    skidmark wrote:
    Oh! The ambulance folks are telling me "Get in and we are leaving for the ER now, or we leave you her in the middle of the intersection." No time to get a receipt from the LEO if I want to get to the ER and get treatment for my two hands that do not work and hurt like heck.
    you got to be kidding?!?!?

    abandonment is a VERY serious crime. one no emt/paramedic ever wants to be charged with. if i were you i would of got their names and defiantly reported them to the MD. that is not a threat you make to a patient under any circumstances. glad it worked out for you though you defiantly got lucky

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    Regular Member hopnpop's Avatar
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    r6-rider wrote:
    skidmark wrote:
    Oh! The ambulance folks are telling me "Get in and we are leaving for the ER now, or we leave you her in the middle of the intersection." No time to get a receipt from the LEO if I want to get to the ER and get treatment for my two hands that do not work and hurt like heck.
    you got to be kidding?!?!?

    abandonment is a VERY serious crime. one no emt/paramedic ever wants to be charged with. if i were you i would of got their names and defiantly reported them to the MD. that is not a threat you make to a patient under any circumstances. glad it worked out for you though you defiantly got lucky
    +1 on all counts
    No one has ever walked away from a gunfight complaining that he brought too much ammo.

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    Regular Member hopnpop's Avatar
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    skidmark wrote:
    My thoughts are that what you do depends on the situation, and your then-current physical and psychological situation.

    Just looking at the car I knew it was 1) going to be towed because it was not drivable, and 2) it would be staying in a tow yard for some time before the insurance company & I decided what disposition to make.

    I had one pistol on me, and several in a range bagin the car. If I had been physically able to, I would have tried to recover my pistols from the car and take them, in the range bag, with me on the ambulance ride to the Emegency Room.
    (Insert here a commercial for having & using a digital voice recorder. I turned mine on as I was trying to exit the vehicle and call 911. Kept it on all througfh the ER experience, so it had recorded the conversation with the LEO about the pistols.)
    First off, here in Michigan it's illegal to have a concealed (bagged) weapon in a hospital. So taking them on the ambulance ride to the ER may have wound up in some charges. Coincidently, my favored hospital (not because of their firearms policies, mind you) prohibits ALL firearms, so even with a CPL, you can't OC there. I digress. At any rate, I keep coming back to having to leave it/them with an LEO at the scene. ...Which, yeah, sucks, but what do ya' do? I can't imagine having a friggin BAG of guns in the car but maybe a primary and a BUG. Not being able to catalog them would be nerve-wrecking to me. Lucky break.

    Also, great voice recorder ad! ...Things you don't consider. Amazing you had the presence of mind to record!! Brilliant! *taking notes*
    No one has ever walked away from a gunfight complaining that he brought too much ammo.

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    Regular Member hopnpop's Avatar
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    r6-rider wrote:
    an emt/paramedic can react two ways, if theyre like me i would just secure the weapon, clear it, and put it somewhere safe til police show up. if theyre like alot of pussies i know, they will run back to the ambulance and wait til cops have secured the scene (which is textbook answer)

    if you're conscious it gets more confusing cause they dont know your intentions so theyll probly just retreat and wait for police if they see a gun.
    ...people get VERY combative and aggressive when they are disoriented.

    Why clear & secure it? Just in case they gain conciousness and their head's not clear enough to comprehend and/or rationalize what's going on, etc? Other than that, I don't see a reason why. Then again, maybe, just maybe, the patient is wanted or on the run and illegally armed. I could see how that could become a hazardous situation, with police, sirens, uniforms, chaos... Alright, after assessing some different possible scenarios, I can rationalize clearing and securing the gun.

    And if I'm alert but in need of med assistance and I'm looking at 2 EMTs sitting in their rig because I'm armed, I'd be one pissed off dude.
    No one has ever walked away from a gunfight complaining that he brought too much ammo.

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    hopnpop wrote:
    r6-rider wrote:
    an emt/paramedic can react two ways, if theyre like me i would just secure the weapon, clear it, and put it somewhere safe til police show up. if theyre like alot of pussies i know, they will run back to the ambulance and wait til cops have secured the scene (which is textbook answer)

    if you're conscious it gets more confusing cause they dont know your intentions so theyll probly just retreat and wait for police if they see a gun.
    ...people get VERY combative and aggressive when they are disoriented.

    Why clear & secure it? Just in case they gain conciousness and their head's not clear enough to comprehend and/or rationalize what's going on, etc? Other than that, I don't see a reason why. Then again, maybe, just maybe, the patient is wanted or on the run and illegally armed. I could see how that could become a hazardous situation, with police, sirens, uniforms, chaos... Alright, after assessing some different possible scenarios, I can rationalize clearing and securing the gun.

    And if I'm alert but in need of med assistance and I'm looking at 2 EMTs sitting in their rig because I'm armed, I'd be one pissed off dude.
    pretty much. im all for everyone being armed. but after becoming an emt iv learned alot about how people react under traumatic situations and/or after certain chemicals in the body are released. me personally, if i believe someone is ok and in a right state of mind i have no problem keeping the police out of the picture and letting them go about their business but unfortunately for the safety of everyone i do have to go through a "process" to determine that. there are alot of legal issues when it comes to police and medical but it does make sense when your on this side of it, i didnt fully understand until i became an emt.

    but yea if you are alert and oriented, and look like a normal person (i dont care who you are, if you dont judge people you're a liar) i would not hesitate to perform care. but again thats me, text book says you wait until police have "secured the scene" if there are any signs of weapons/animals/illegal activity.

    trust me, we want to help but there are alot of legal bounds preventing us from acting. legally, i could get in trouble for doing what i just wrote, but morally i would feel fine helping a law abiding citizen carrying a firearm

  12. #12
    Regular Member hopnpop's Avatar
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    Good perspective. I can see the point of view from the EMT standpoint - same #1 rule as cops: make sure YOU go home at the end of the day. I rode along with a Q.R. unit for a while, years back, and got a little taste of the EMT side of things. That was so many yrs ago that I was clueless as to most firearms laws and having an armed patient never crossed my mind. With the knowledge and perspective I have today, I can see how it could complicate things. Had a patient with severe "downs" (syndrome) once - that was interesting. You can't read 'em like most folks and it throws off the whole aspect of communication. I'm off-track.

    At any rate, just wanted to say I appreciate the perspective from your side of the uniform.
    No one has ever walked away from a gunfight complaining that he brought too much ammo.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    r6-rider - Ambulance folks were not abandoning, or threatening to abandon me. They were telling me that it was either go to the ER or refuse treatment while hanging around trying to deal with my pistols and the LEO.

    I left out all info on my medical history which required that I get checked out for more than the obvious hurting hands. Delay in getting to the ER could have been life-threatening for me. The crew is not there to deal with that catastrophe in the middle of the road if they can get me to the ER and turn me over to those better equipped to deal with my issues. Refusing to get in and go would have been just that - refusing care. I'm sure they would have pulled out the correct paperwork for me to sign before doing anything else like packing up and going home.

    hopnpop - Around here it is fairly common to ride around with a bag full of guns in addition to the one you are carrying OC. Also, it's common to have a bunch of rifles and/or shotguns with you, too. We love going to the range!

    As for me, I was headed for a vacation destination where I was going to be shooting. While I was on the route I had planned I would not have to move anything into FOPA-compliant storage for at least the next 12 hours.:celebrate I prefer to keep my guns close to me for as long as I can.

    Yes, I "lucked out". That was part of my point - that there are both types of LEOs out there - the ones who do not like gunnies and the ones that are not upset/bothered/paranoid by gunnies. I drew type 1 that day.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
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    o alright i see what kind of situation you were in now, i thought you were saying they were just going to hop back in the truck and leave you there. i mean legally you could of told them to wait and they would of had to until you sign a refusal form but yea im sure with your hands being banged up and them just trying to get out of the road there wasnt a whole lot of time to pick n choose things.

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    So my thought process.... (pick apart or make suggestions at will)

    Me carrying and hurt:

    If I'm not able to make the decision, I'm gonna have to trust the good samaritans/EMT/LEO to do the right things.

    If I'm able to make the decision/plan:

    • First choice if I have to be transported is turn it over to whoever is with me, provided I feel comfortable with them handling it. In other words someone who I shoot with, or that I have personally given at least the basics of handling a firearm. I'll most likely unload it as part of this turnover.
    • Second, same as above, but if they are not a regular shooter, or if I don't feel comfortable with them handling it, I keep a netbag in my vehicle with me at all times. I would unload if possible, and place into the bag and lock it before turning it over.
    • I would do the same if turning over to a LEO. Would keep them from doing anything with it since cutting the lock, cable or bag to gain access would be pretty visible. I'm sure they wouldn't want it in the bag loaded, so unloading by me or them prior to locking would be part of the process. (Think I'll add a business type card in the bag, as well as maybe clipped to the outside of the bag?) Not sure how they would take/accept this. Question is would they accept this?
    Coming across a scene, finding a weapon on the injured party.

    • First choice would be to leave it where it's at, and ensure that first arriving LEO/EMT are aware that it's there. Let them follow their protocols. This assumes that the patient does not appear to be a threat, but that I understand that could change depending on injuries, activity,scene, and legality of carry for that individual. Much of that I have no control over.
    • IF I offer, and IF the patient accepts for me to take possession, I think I would use the above mentioned bag, as well as name/number of person to turn it over to, or contact the hospital to get info on the patient so I can make arrangements to turn it over. I very much dislike this option since there are a whole bunch of potential failure points and legal traps with this.
    • If the patient is belligerent due either to his injuries, or the fact that he is illegally carrying and about to gain a whole lot of attention, then priority becomes safety of those around, safety of myself and safety of the patient. If there is a way to SAFELY disarm him or otherwise make the weapon inaccessible to him, that would be my first choice. If he pulls it, and it appears as if he would use it, then rules of SD apply?
    Officer: "Does anyone know how this car accident victim was shot?"

    Me: "Funny story that.... one I think I need to talk to my lawyer about first"

    All of the above would probably greatly benefit from a voice recorder, and a play-by-play as you describe what is taking place, what you see, and what actions you take.





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    Regular Member hopnpop's Avatar
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    DocKen wrote:
    If he pulls it, and it appears as if he would use it, then rules of SD apply?
    The first question mark shouldn't even be there!! ANYTIME anyone pulls a gun and looks as though they're about to use it, SD applies!!
    Officer: "Does anyone know how this car accident victim was shot?"
    "I um...er, eh...it was like that when I found it!"
    No one has ever walked away from a gunfight complaining that he brought too much ammo.

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    In the Current VCDL alert, there is a link to an article published on emsresponder.com about this very subject

    http://tinyurl.com/ybcpcdo





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    I am the author of that article.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

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    Have you considered partnering with VCDL to put together a training program of some type together?

    The article discussed following departmental SOP, but I would think that VCDL would be in a prime place to put together some standardized plans for across the state, and possibly outside the state. You could be a very good reference for that.

    Might even be good to work with LEO's to talk about their role, and what actions would be taken for weapons that they take possession of. Possibly even putting in writing when they would or would not do any "searchs" like running serial numbers.



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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    r6-rider wrote:
    skidmark wrote:
    Oh!* The ambulance folks are telling me "Get in and we are leaving for the ER now, or we leave you her in the middle of the intersection."* No time to get a receipt from the LEO if I want to get to the ER and get treatment for my two hands that do not work and hurt like heck.
    you got to be kidding?!?!?

    abandonment is a VERY serious crime. one no emt/paramedic ever wants to be charged with. if i were you i would of got their names and defiantly reported them to the MD. that is not a threat you make to a patient under any circumstances. glad it worked out for you though you defiantly got lucky
    What? I don't know if you were ever an EMT/Paramedic, but it's called patient refusal. As long as a patient is cognizant and aware of his/her decision and does not have a decreased LOC (level of consciousness), and not under immediate threat, he has every right to 'not go', and the ambulance crew CAN give the people an ultimatum, stay or go. Usually crews get a signed waiver, stating they refused transport and aren't liable for anything that may happen as a result of the refusal.

    Implied consent comes into play when a person is not conscious or has a decreased LOC, and it's presumed that the person WANTS help, as they would be asking for it if they were aware of the situation. In such a situation with a decreased LOC and/or a critical injury, then yes, abandonment would come into play.
    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

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    paramedic70002 wrote:
    I am the author of that article.
    Outstanding!

    I really liked your comment that most "legal" guns will be in holsters, rather than simply stuck in waistbands :celebrate

    In your next artical, you might discuss the sense of responsibility that most gun owners feel and that securing the gun is a top priority for any responsible gun owner. A mention of the consequences of a non-secured gun might help EMT's to understand.


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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    RE: Abandonment

    And not to hijack the thread, but thought you guys might like a little sample of what we have to deal with.

    Say I get on scene with a patient who is complaining of abdominal pain. There is no way I can tell what's wrong with him. Could be a bad lunch or could be a heart attack, or diverticulitis or an abdominal aneurism, or any of a number of other things ranging from suck it up to a life threatening emergency.

    I am in a small town with one hospital. The patient does not want to go to that hospital. He wants us to transport him to a different hospital which is about 20 miles away. EMS regulations no longer require us to transport to the nearest hospital if the patient is stable, but we must get the local hospital ED Doc's OK to bypass them. We are also reluctant to bypass the local hospital because it takes the only manned ambulance, and the best chance for the next patient to get Paramedic level care, far away from our coverage area.

    Do you refuse to take the patient to the next town, even if he is not refusing care?

    If the local Doc says "Bring him here" but the patient refuses, what now?

    Say you have a patient who can't make up his mind. How long do you stay tied up on scene waiting for a decision before you give an ultimatum?

    Usually these issues can be resolved by gentle persuasion, either by the EMS crew or family. Sometimes they can't.

    In my long career in EMS, there has been only one patient that I walked out on. She called 911 for difficulty breathing. We got on scene and found her lying on a sofa. She immediately requested to be taken to a hospital that was a few miles farther away than the one I would have chosen. Her true complaint was a stuffy nose from a cold. As I went about gathering vital signs, I noticed a hospital band on her arm. Upon questioning I discovered that she had just gone to the closer hospital but walked out because they made her sit in the waiting room instead of taking her straight back. So she went home and called 911. This really got my goat, so I told her that she was wasting our time and keeping an ambulance from someone who might really need it, and suggested that she find her own way to the hospital. I was wrong, but she really won the prize among the many people I have seen abuse EMS.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  23. #23
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    TechnoWeenie wrote:
    r6-rider wrote:
    skidmark wrote:
    Oh! The ambulance folks are telling me "Get in and we are leaving for the ER now, or we leave you her in the middle of the intersection." No time to get a receipt from the LEO if I want to get to the ER and get treatment for my two hands that do not work and hurt like heck.
    you got to be kidding?!?!?

    abandonment is a VERY serious crime. one no emt/paramedic ever wants to be charged with. if i were you i would of got their names and defiantly reported them to the MD. that is not a threat you make to a patient under any circumstances. glad it worked out for you though you defiantly got lucky
    What? I don't know if you were ever an EMT/Paramedic, but it's called patient refusal. As long as a patient is cognizant and aware of his/her decision and does not have a decreased LOC (level of consciousness), and not under immediate threat, he has every right to 'not go', and the ambulance crew CAN give the people an ultimatum, stay or go. Usually crews get a signed waiver, stating they refused transport and aren't liable for anything that may happen as a result of the refusal.

    Implied consent comes into play when a person is not conscious or has a decreased LOC, and it's presumed that the person WANTS help, as they would be asking for it if they were aware of the situation. In such a situation with a decreased LOC and/or a critical injury, then yes, abandonment would come into play.
    exactly. it didnt sound as if the emt was offering a patient refusal form, it sounded like he was saying hop it or we're leaving you.

    correct me if im wrong but without a signed refusal form that patient could be popping back into your life next year saying you left him no?

  24. #24
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    paramedic70002 wrote:
    Say you have a patient who can't make up his mind. How long do you stay tied up on scene waiting for a decision before you give an ultimatum?
    Until either: he falls out, at which time you have implied consent; or, until another call comes in, at which time you prioritize by triage.

  25. #25
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    I'm not anti cop enough to care if they take it and run checks if I am whisked away to a hospital for a emergency. I don't think they should but what are they going to find on me... I mean in a emergency situation regarding your health i think thats the last thing you should be worried about. Give them to the LEO if you dont have a trusted party there. They arent all like kimberguys cop buddies :P

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