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Thread: Open Carry at Gunnie's in Orem

  1. #1
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    I went shooting with some friends on Saturday and one of them had a Beretta U22 Neos that my wife liked a lot. (my 9mm scares her every time she fires it) Anyways, they mentioned that Gunnie's in Orem had it for a pretty good price. I had time yesterday evening and I decided to take a look. Upon entering the store, I saw a sign that said that you had to sign/check in your gun at the front desk. (they do gun repairs and they want to keep track of what guns they still have posession of for insurance or something) So I signed mine in, and proceeded to the gun counter where I was challenged by a sales associate. Here is how the conversation went:

    salesman: "You aren't allowed to open carry in the store. Cover it up."

    me: "Utah is an open carry state right? I didn't see a sign when I came in and I don't have a concealed carry permit, so covering it up would be illegal right?"

    salesman: "We don't allow open carry, so you might as well go put it in your car."

    Personally, I think that their policy is a bit weird since I didn't have a round chambered and there was no sign besides the one indicating that you needed to sign in your gun. Also, they teach ccw classes there and I personally think that it is a way to incentivise you to take the class so that you can carry in their store. I'm sure if I tried to do anything funny they would have no problem taking care of me, so why is it unacceptable to carry in a gun store, but okay to carry in a grocery store?

    Anybody else know why they were so touchy?

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    This doesn't sound like gunnies. Did you catch the salesman's name? I am fairly sure that I have open carried there before and I have seen one of their salesman open carry while working (one time). I don't remember their policy, but the only time I have signed in my gun in was when I was looking at holsters and I was pulling my gun out.

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    I'll go back and get his name today. It was a thicker middle-aged guy, probably 5'8" with shorter brown hair. I came back in after putting my gun in my "locked vehicle" and made sure to only ask questions of the other sales associates. I had a lot of fun pricing out AR-15's and checking out their ammo selection.

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    T_Swensen wrote:
    Anybody else know why they were so touchy?
    They have always been that way. I just conceal now and ignore the sign when I go in. There is no way I am giving up my firearm or leaving it in the car!!

    Side note.. Private parties can make up any rules they want to. So they can say - no firearms and you can completely ignore that and walk on thru legally, BUT they can then get you for trespassing if they ask you to leave and you don't comply with them.
    As long as it is not a federal building, ETC. you are completely legal.

    So back to your question, It is just their companies policy or made up rule I suppose?

    "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
    Thomas Jefferson

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    I heard conflicting things from different employees. One said that my action had to be open, another just said that it would be okay to cover it up with my shirt even without a concealed carry permit, and then there was the "open carry not allowed" response from the one guy.

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    T_Swensen wrote:
    I heard conflicting things from different employees. One said that my action had to be open, another just said that it would be okay to cover it up with my shirt even without a concealed carry permit, and then there was the "open carry not allowed" response from the one guy.
    I would suggest, learn and know the laws and your rights before you a carry a firearm at all.

    Technically, you do have to be one action from firing if you do not have a permit.

    If you don't have a permit and you conceal, you are BREAKING THE LAW, regardless of what some employee told you. Obviously he or she doesn't know or understand the laws.

    Open carry is allowed and 100% legal, it is just there made up policy.
    "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
    Thomas Jefferson

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    I made sure to tell them that me concealing my weapon without a permit was illegal, but it didn't seem to penetrate their stupor.

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    T_Swensen wrote:
    Anybody else know why they were so touchy?
    I believe it comes back to prevention loss.

    You can come in and ask to see a gun (or guns) then shoplift it (them) while they aren't looking or pull your own gun and take it (them) by force. And if you were shoplifting and the cashiers saw you with the gun how would they know a store gun from customer gun.

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    On the same token, what keeps you from taking a gun and shoving it into your concealed carry holster and walking out with it that way. He did say that concealed carry was allowed, so obviously he wasn't worried about someone pulling on him and stealing a few guns.

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    packingmama wrote:
    If you don't have a permit and you conceal, you are BREAKING THE LAW, regardless of what some employee told you.
    I believe that is true. The law almost reads that business can give consent, but I don't believe it does:

    76-10-504. Carrying concealed dangerous weapon -- Penalties.
    (1) Except as provided in Section 76-10-503 and in Subsections (2), (3), and (4), a person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-10-501, including an unloaded firearm on his or her person or one that is readily accessible for immediate use which is not securely encased, as defined in this part, in or on a place other than the person's residence, property, a vehicle in the person's lawful possession, or a vehicle, with the consent of the individual who is lawfully in possession of the vehicle, or business under the person's control is guilty of a class B misdemeanor.

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    glenathan wrote:
    packingmama wrote:
    If you don't have a permit and you conceal, you are BREAKING THE LAW, regardless of what some employee told you.
    I believe that is true. The law almost reads that business can give consent, but I don't believe it does:

    76-10-504. Carrying concealed dangerous weapon -- Penalties.
    (1) Except as provided in Section 76-10-503 and in Subsections (2), (3), and (4), a person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-10-501, including an unloaded firearm on his or her person or one that is readily accessible for immediate use which is not securely encased, as defined in this part, in or on a place other than the person's residence, property, a vehicle in the person's lawful possession, or a vehicle, with the consent of the individual who is lawfully in possession of the vehicle, or business under the person's control is guilty of a class B misdemeanor.
    The law does not give the owner of a business the ability to let someone conceal in their store if that person does not have a permit. It only allows the person that is under control of the business to conceal. If you don't have a permit, it is illegal to conceal outside of your car, or on your property. The part about giving consent, is talking about the person owning the car, giving you permission to do so in their car.

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    I have carried openly in Gunnies at least a handful of times. I have even had conversations with the guys at the gun counter about the "virtues of open carry vs. concealed carry".

    Not one time has any associate or sales staff member at Gunnies given me any guff about my sidearm. The worst I ever received from them is the "it will get you shot first" comments. :?
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    The worst I ever received from them is the "it will get you shot first" comments. :?
    Maybe if they would think about it for more than a millionth of a second, they would realize they are wrong.

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    Maybe I should determine from the store manager what the real rule is. If he has a sales associate that is alienating customers without it being an actual policy, maybe he would want to know about it. They have enough guns to equip a small army in there, so it would be unusual for the sight of one on somebody's hip to be such a big deal.

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    T_Swensen wrote:
    Maybe I should determine from the store manager what the real rule is. If he has a sales associate that is alienating customers without it being an actual policy, maybe he would want to know about it. They have enough guns to equip a small army in there, so it would be unusual for the sight of one on somebody's hip to be such a big deal.
    My $.02:

    I would inform the store manager that you followed the policy on the front door and you were still harassed.

    Wyatt the Gun Dept. Manager confirmed the store policy that is on the front door in this thread:
    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...hlight=gunnies

    In the future if questioned about your gun in Gunnies I personally would not say I have the right (and yes you do), but I would say I followed store policy.

    When taking a gun into Gunnies you have a few options:
    1) Conceal carry with CFP - Probably won't have issues, but if you do you have followed store policy and if harassed more complain to management.
    2) Open carry and follow store policy - If questioned say you followed store policy and if harassed more complain to management.
    3) Open carry and refuse to follow store policy - Probably will have issues and if you persist will most likely have the Police called on you.



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    That was most likely Brian, he used to work at CAL Ranch in American Fork.

    Guy tried to tell me that municipalities could ban open carry, and that orem did.

    Then He pulled out Mitch Vilos' book, and proved himself wrong, then took and hid the copy.

    I do not like the guy.

    Aside from which, they wont ship or receive FFL transfers which my brother found out while trying to ship my XD.

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    Weird, I OC'd SGT Jensen's GLOCK 23 in there on Monday and bought a holster for it along with a couple new mags.

    Then I stopped by tonight and picked up a camping axe and a few more rounds for said GLOCK all whilst OCing. They were cool - there were three of them and one was an ex-cop - nobody mentioned my sidearm.

    Sorry you had problems, I never have.

    When I read the sign it seems apparent to me that it refers to firearms that are going to be manipulated whilst in the store and not to those that will stay holstered.

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    packingmama wrote:
    T_Swensen wrote:
    Anybody else know why they were so touchy?
    They have always been that way. I just conceal now and ignore the sign when I go in. There is no way I am giving up my firearm or leaving it in the car!!

    Side note.. Private parties can make up any rules they want to. So they can say - no firearms and you can completely ignore that and walk on thru legally, BUT they can then get you for trespassing if they ask you to leave and you don't comply with them.
    As long as it is not a federal building, ETC. you are completely legal.

    So back to your question, It is just their companies policy or made up rule I suppose?
    76-6-206. Criminal trespass.
    (1) As used in this section, "enter" means intrusion of the entire body.
    (2) A person is guilty of criminal trespass if, under circumstances not amounting to burglary as defined in Section 76-6-202, 76-6-203, or 76-6-204 or a violation of Section 76-10-2402 regarding commercial terrorism:
    (a) he enters or remains unlawfully on property and:
    (i) intends to cause annoyance or injury to any person or damage to any property, including the use of graffiti as defined in Section 76-6-107;
    (ii) intends to commit any crime, other than theft or a felony; or
    (iii) is reckless as to whether his presence will cause fear for the safety of another;
    (b) knowing his entry or presence is unlawful, he enters or remains on property as to which notice against entering is given by:
    (i) personal communication to the actor by the owner or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner;
    (ii) fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders; or
    (iii) posting of signs reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders; or
    (c) he enters a condominium unit in violation of Subsection 57-8-7(7).
    (3) (a) A violation of Subsection (2)(a) or (b) is a class B misdemeanor unless it was committed in a dwelling, in which event it is a class A misdemeanor.
    (b) A violation of Subsection (2)(c) is an infraction.
    (4) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
    (a) the property was open to the public when the actor entered or remained; and
    (b) the actor's conduct did not substantially interfere with the owner's use of the property.


    If you have the time and money to fight it, I would seriously doubt a trespass charge would stick, so you could basically ignore the person and keep shopping. When the cops showed up to issue you the citation, it would have no weight. I seriously doubt that an Open-Carried sidearm in a gun store "substantially interferes" with their business, and last I checked, it was open to the public. If not, they got some splainin to do to the IRS and the city of where their paychecks are coming from.

    Kevin
    If it isn't broke, then don't fix it, or you'll fix it until it's broke.

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    Just some general comments about carrying in businesses and carrying in gun stores and gun shows specifically.

    1-A private business has every legal right to refuse to allow you to bring a gun in. Whether they should be allowed to do this, or should be required to give service to gun carriers the same way they are required to give service to racial or religious minorities is a fine debate. But so long as they law is the way it is, we should respect it, and the express wishes of business owners. Taking business elsewhere sends a strong message in this economy.

    2-If a low level employee is enforcing a policy contrary to store policy, try to clear it up with management. If the problem persists, see #1 and take your business elsewhere.

    3-We should recognize the unique situation of a gun store or gun show when it comes to firearm safety. I can think of no place else in public where it is socially and legally acceptable to be handling a firearm, working the action, even sighting it in on some object. At many gun shows it is all but impossible to handle a gun without the barrel pointing at someone. That someone may be out of sight behind the booth backdrop or curtain. But they are downrange in the event of an ND.

    In a perfect world, a holstered, self-defense sidearm would never come out the holster at a gun show or in a gun shop and therefore there would be no problem allowing holstered, loaded, self-defense guns in those locations. The world is not perfect and extra precautions are needed. So whatever our views about how Walmart or Costco should respond to or ignore our guns, I think we need to be sensitive to the unique safety challenges of gun stores and gun shows.

    That said, a gun store or show that mistreats you doesn't deserve your business.

    Charles


    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Just some general comments about carrying in businesses and carrying in gun stores and gun shows specifically.

    1-A private business has every legal right to refuse to allow you to bring a gun in. Whether they should be allowed to do this, or should be required to give service to gun carriers the same way they are required to give service to racial or religious minorities is a fine debate. But so long as they law is the way it is, we should respect it, and the express wishes of business owners. Taking business elsewhere sends a strong message in this economy.

    2-If a low level employee is enforcing a policy contrary to store policy, try to clear it up with management. If the problem persists, see #1 and take your business elsewhere.

    3-We should recognize the unique situation of a gun store or gun show when it comes to firearm safety. I can think of no place else in public where it is socially and legally acceptable to be handling a firearm, working the action, even sighting it in on some object. At many gun shows it is all but impossible to handle a gun without the barrel pointing at someone. That someone may be out of sight behind the booth backdrop or curtain. But they are downrange in the event of an ND.

    In a perfect world, a holstered, self-defense sidearm would never come out the holster at a gun show or in a gun shop and therefore there would be no problem allowing holstered, loaded, self-defense guns in those locations. The world is not perfect and extra precautions are needed. So whatever our views about how Walmart or Costco should respond to or ignore our guns, I think we need to be sensitive to the unique safety challenges of gun stores and gun shows.

    That said, a gun store or show that mistreats you doesn't deserve your business.

    Charles


    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  21. #21
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    I decided to stop by Gunnies on my lunch break today, since I have not been there in over a year.

    I carried my GLOCK 35 openly, and as predicted none of the employees mentoned anything about it.

    I was in the store for 30 minutes, looking at a Springfield Loaded Lightweight Bi-tone 1911, and XDm 9MM.

    On the way out, I snapped this photo of the sign on the door. Looks like the spirit of the wording is to prohibit open carry.

    The small print at the bottom states (Not required for concealed firearms with Concealed Firearm Permit)


    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    i love kevins boldness lol

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    Wow, I'm blind... didn't even notice the wording on the bottom there.

  24. #24
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    I agree with ya there Charles. I was just pointing out the loop hole in the trespassing code for this particular situation. I agree that this issue needs some clarification with some added legislation in future sessions. I still think it would be fair to make the businesses liable for any damages suffered if a no-legal-firearms-on-the-premises policy put you in harms' way if a BG goes on a rampage or robbery and you get hurt or killed because you didn't have your standard means of protection handy.

    The bill that passed into law this past session was a good step in that direction with regard to your vehicle and place of employment. Let's keep laying the groundwork for the business end now. I'm sure both sides of this debate could work out a solution over time.

    Kevin

    P.S. I think somebody needs some "Cheese" to go with their "Chilidogs" Oops.. I just dropped another skittle on the ground. I wonder what will come out from under that bridge over there and eat it.... hmmmm
    If it isn't broke, then don't fix it, or you'll fix it until it's broke.

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    Double Post.
    If it isn't broke, then don't fix it, or you'll fix it until it's broke.

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