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Thread: Concealed magazine

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    I have a question that I cannot seem to find an answer to. If I am open carrying, must the magazine also be visible. If so, is this just common sense, or is there case law or a statute that says IMUST have BOTH the gun and magazine visible. What I am really looking for is a specific law or statute that I can site. Thanks for any help.

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    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
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    From the FAQ at http://www.californiaopencarry.org/faq.html

    I've heard concealed magazines are illegal. Is that true?


    While there is no code that supports this, there was an appellate case in 1974, People v. Hale, that ruled this way. It ruled that although the firearm in question was not concealed, the magazine was, and that only partial concealment is still concealment, and that the magazine was an "essential component" of the firearm. The logic is tortured beyond belief, but it currently could be used as a persuasive precedent in court. One way to avoid this pitfall is to carry your magazines in belt holsters, so that they match the 12025(f) language of "carried openly in belt holsters". Another option would be to keep an unloaded magazine in the firearm, thereby "completing" the firearm, and invalidating the asinine "essential component" logic.

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    edit!
    When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty.

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    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
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    dirtykoala wrote:
    ...or buy an extra mag to keep in your mag well so that your gun is assembled, but near useless.
    My pistol is no less ready for action with an empty mag in the well then it is with on open well. The empty mag gets dropped while the full mag is brought into position.

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    edit!
    When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty.

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    ive oftened wondered what the charge would be if you??

    told a cop that you have a "loaded magazine", "concealed"in your pocket?

    even tho you dont have a gun!
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    Hard to see how that would stand up in court in front of a jury... Concealed, loaded magazine without the possession of a firearm. I thought the loaded magazine completed the firearm, hence you can't have a "loaded" or complete weapon with only one of the two items...
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

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    yah, thats like carrying bullets in your pocket. Only illegal if your on private property that prohibits that. There was this kid in college that went up to girls in class and showed them an un-firedshotgun shell like he was a badass or something. We have yet to kick this kids ass for being such a *********.

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    The magazine would be considered a concealed weapon ONLY if you are engaged in a felonious act.

    But why give them any more ammunition to use against you? Besides, it's a hell of a lot harder and slowerto get a magazine out of your pocket, than from a belt pouch.

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    2, 4, 5 A defender wrote:
    ive oftened wondered what the charge would be if you??

    told a cop that you have a "loaded magazine", "concealed"in your pocket?

    even tho you dont have a gun!
    The actual language in People v. Hale say that a concealed, loaded magazine IN THE PRESENCE OF THE UNLOADED GUN, is considered a concealed weapon.

    You could walk around with 20 full magazines concealed all over your body, but without the gun that those magazines go to, it is not a crime.

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Army wrote:
    The magazine would be considered a concealed weapon ONLY if you are engaged in a felonious act.

    But why give them any more ammunition to use against you? Besides, it's a hell of a lot harder and slowerto get a magazine out of your pocket, than from a belt pouch.
    People v. Hale says nothing about "engaged in a felonious act".

    What you are talking about is the PC 12001(j) definition: For purposes of Section 12023, a firearm shall be deemed loaded whenever both the firearm and the unexpeded ammunition capable of being discharged from the firearm are in the immediate possession of the same person

    PC 12023 (a) Every person who carries a loaded firearm with the intent to commit a felony is guilty of armed criminal action.

    If a law abiding citizen is walking down the street with an unloaded semi-auto pistol on thier side, and a cop stops him for an e-check, if he asks "Do you have any ammunition?" and they answer "Yes, I have two full magazines in my pocket", he could arrest them for carrying a concealed firearm. They would probably get convicted using People v. Hale as case law.


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    Army wrote:
    But why give them any more ammunition to use against you? Besides, it's a hell of a lot harder and slowerto get a magazine out of your pocket, than from a belt pouch.
    +1. Why open carry a gun and then conceal the magazines?

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    I guess I don't come across obvious enough over the innerwebs

    If you ONLY have a magazine, with no gun in the area, and you are doing something felonious....it's a concealed weapon charge when caught.

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    Army wrote:
    I guess I don't come across obvious enough over the innerwebs

    If you ONLY have a magazine, with no gun in the area, and you are doing something felonious....it's a concealed weapon charge when caught.

    For the benefit of those who are unfamiliar with the exact PC that states this, could you provide a citation?


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    What if you open carry your magazines but lock unload conceal carry your gun?

    :P

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    Decoligny wrote:
    For the benefit of those who are unfamiliar with the exact PC that states this, could you provide a citation?
    PC12022.2 is part of the gang activity laws.

    People Vs Hale is case law that defined magazines as integral components of a firearm.

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    N6ATF wrote:
    What if you open carry your magazines but lock unload conceal carry your gun?

    :P
    LUCC is legal per PC 12026.1 and 12026.2 IIRC.

    12026.1 deals with it being legal to LUCC in a motor vehicle.

    12026.2 however, deals with non-motor vehicular transport. The exceptions are specifically limited to the locations listed in 12026.2, going to, and coming from.

    Just walking around and not heading to/from one of the listed locations would be a violation of PC 12025, carry a concealed weapon.

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    Decoligny wrote:
    N6ATF wrote:
    What if you open carry your magazines but lock unload conceal carry your gun?

    :P
    LUCC is legal per PC 12026.1 and 12026.2 IIRC.

    12026.1 deals with it being legal to LUCC in a motor vehicle.

    12026.2 however, deals with non-motor vehicular transport. The exceptions are specifically limited to the locations listed in 12026.2, going to, and coming from.

    Just walking around and not heading to/from one of the listed locations would be a violation of PC 12025, carry a concealed weapon.
    Yes, but remember that you don't have to talk to the police. There is no way for them to know that you are LUCC, where you came from or where you are going unless you tell them.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Legend_AB wrote:
    Decoligny wrote:
    N6ATF wrote:
    What if you open carry your magazines but lock unload conceal carry your gun?

    :P
    LUCC is legal per PC 12026.1 and 12026.2 IIRC.

    12026.1 deals with it being legal to LUCC in a motor vehicle.

    12026.2 however, deals with non-motor vehicular transport. The exceptions are specifically limited to the locations listed in 12026.2, going to, and coming from.

    Just walking around and not heading to/from one of the listed locations would be a violation of PC 12025, carry a concealed weapon.
    Yes, but remember that you don't have to talk to the police. There is no way for them to know that you are LUCC, where you came from or where you are going unless you tell them.
    If you have "openly carried magazines" but no openly carried firearm, I would probably think that would be enough reasonable suspiscion for an officer to think that you have a firearm upon your person. That leaves the officer two possible lines of thought. First, you have a CCW (unlikely), which he can ask to see. If you tell him that you don't, his second line of thought would be, concealed firearm + no CCW,12025 violation, probable cause for a search.

    If he finds a locked container, he would then have probable cause to assume that it contained a firearm due to the presence of the magazines. At this point, he would have the authority to do a 12031(e) check.

    There is a very slight chance that the officer is familiar enough with the exemption listed in 12026.2 to know whether or not you are within walking distance of any of the exempted locations. He would probably make an arrest for 12025 violation.

    Of course you don't tell the police anything that they can use against you.

    You may beat the charge in court, but you won't beat the ride in cuffs, or the stay in jail, or paying bail, or paying a lawyer to defend you.

    If you are going to LUCC, please limit it to actually transporting to/from the listed locations. Also don't "advertise" by displaying openly carried magazines, this only invites LEOs to search for a concealed firearm.Don'tknowingly violate the law.

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    Decoligny wrote:
    If you have "openly carried magazines" but no openly carried firearm, I would probably think that would be enough reasonable suspiscion for an officer to think that you have a firearm upon your person. That leaves the officer two possible lines of thought. First, you have a CCW (unlikely), which he can ask to see. If you tell him that you don't, his second line of thought would be, concealed firearm + no CCW,12025 violation, probable cause for a search.
    The officer could ask to see your CCW license, but you wouldn't be obliged to talk to him or show him anything.

    In Florida v J.L. the SCOTUS held that even if the officer KNOWS a concealed handgun is present, that is not RAS to stop, since it is possible the person has a permit to carry.

    However, under CA law and CA Appeals Court precedent, the officer has the right to 'examine' the firearm to make sure it isn't loaded. (This case would very likely be overturned if appealed to a higher court, as the logic of J.L. and Terry both prohibit unwarranted searches/seizures.)
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