How is open carry defined?

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gmreplay - You would be well advised to get a concealed carry permit/license and study up on the sheepdog mindset, legal responsibilities/liabilities of being in an armed condition. Get the CC license, join US Concealed Carry Association , spend some time learning on that forum - before you launch into OC in Michigan. OC is at best an optional alternative to concealed carry.

Under certain circumstances I believe OC is useful for a variety of reasons ranging from crime deterrence, self-defense, education, etc - where legal.....If you have to even ask the question about whether or not you should holster, you are not ready to OC . OC is a serious undertaking deserving of mental, and physical preparation aimed at weapon retention, self-control, good manners, some ability to engage in serious hand to hand combat in addition to being able to draw fire a gun. That's not just my opinion. It's a perspective shared by every law enforcement agency in the world.

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I only asked the no-holster question out of curiosity. I had no real intention of doing so. If I had known that asking such a question was grounds for being deemed too ignorant to carry a gun I would have certainly held my tongue.

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gmreplay wrote:

I only asked the no-holster question out of curiosity. I had no real intention of doing so. If I had known that asking such a question was grounds for being deemed too ignorant to carry a gun I would have certainly held my tongue.

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I have concealed carry without a holster and the handgun was plenty secure. The question was legitimate and the rude answer was uncalled for.

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gmreplay wrote:

rmansu2 wrote:

gmreplay wrote:

"...lack of a CCW means that it would be quite difficult for me to carry in areas where I would like to, such as while getting gas."

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?????

I think I misunderstand your line of thougt. I regularly OC "while getting gas," even inside the store. I'm not sure why a CCW would help unless you don't actually plan to OC. From your comments here, it would appear that you are leaning towards CC. I say "to each his own." I have mine as well and carry depending on the situation and if I can easily conceal. If I can't easily conceal, ie it's obvious I'm carrying, I may as well OC because everyone can tell anyway.

I say make your mind and get comfortable with the fact that you can potentially save or end someone's life with your decisions.

PS. Glad to have someone else thinking about protecting the sheep.

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From my understanding of Michigan law I can't have a pistol on or near my person in the car. In fact, it must be in the trunk unloaded. That means that when I go to get gas I must open the trunk, load the pistol, place it in my holster, get gas (a 2-3 minute procedure), and then reverse the process. That seems one hell of a lot more complex than just already having the pistol on my person and getting the gas, which a CCW would permit me to do. Or have I misunderstood something?

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No, you have the law correct. That's why so many, especially in Michigan, OC even if they have a CPL.

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I don't understand. Why does the Michigan law incentivize ccw holders to open carry?

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gmreplay wrote:

I don't understand. Why does the Michigan law incentivize ccw holders to open carry?

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I don't know that it really does, but there are places that you can OC with a CPL, that you can't legally OC in without.

I don't have the full list memorized, so I won't try to enumerate, and I'm trying to watch the hockey game!!!

I'm sure someone will jump in, but you should visit the Michigan forum, it's one of the most heavily trafficked on this site. These things are all explained there!

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gmreplay wrote:

rmansu2 wrote:

gmreplay wrote:

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Sorry if I sounded perturbed by your post. I am not familiar with MI laws.

In Louisiana, OC is OC. No need for CCW to OC. But here, your vehicle is an extension of your home and the laws that govern firearm carry and self defense are one in the same for your vehicle and home.

I would say if you need a CCW to OC, which I think is strange and slightly illegal, then by all means help us to protect our loved ones who may protection

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rmansu2 wrote:

gmreplay wrote:

rmansu2 wrote:

gmreplay wrote:

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Sorry if I sounded perturbed by your post. I am not familiar with MI laws.

In Louisiana, OC is OC. No need for CCW to OC. But here, your vehicle is an extension of your home and the laws that govern firearm carry and self defense are one in the same for your vehicle and home.

I would say if you need a CCW to OC, which I think is strange and slightly illegal, then by all means help us to protect our loved ones who may protection

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You don't NEED a CPL (Concealed Pistol License in MI) to OC, but it makes it practical.

In MI, we cannot carry a loaded pistol in the car with us without a CPL, so an OC'er without one would have to transport his pistol in the trunk, unloaded, then, when he arrives, say at the gas station, retrieve and load it, pump his gas, then unload and replace in the trunk, to be legal.

I don't mean to imply that that is the way it should be, just that this is the way things currently stand in Michigan.

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Doug Huffman wrote:

In Wisconsin the transition between legal vehicle transport and legal carry cannot be made entirely legally.

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It can be legal if when you do the transition you are ether in a garage attached to you house or a garage attached to your business because you can legally have a concealed weapon in you house or privately owned business. Other than that you are breaking one law or another no matter how you handle it.

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gmreplay wrote:

If I do open carry, I want to do so in the lest obnoxious way possible. I would prefer for no one to notice my piece unless they give me more than a passing glance. Just how much of the pistol has to be visible for it to count as open carry? Also, what type of holster would be preferable for this type of nearly concealed carry?

PS: Do I even need a holster? Is tucking my pistol in my belt enough?

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please do not call it a "piece"

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Grimes wrote:

please do not call it a "piece"

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Tell that to my retired Senior Service NCO neighbor that commands our AmLegion with their pieces.

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Hillmann wrote:

Doug Huffman wrote:

In Wisconsin the transition between legal vehicle transport and legal carry cannot be made entirely legally.

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It can be legal if when you do the transition you are ether in a garage attached to you house or a garage attached to your business because you can legally have a concealed weapon in you house or privately owned business. Other than that you are breaking one law or another no matter how you handle it.

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Being in your home or business is not an exception listed within the letter of the law, but if you are charged, a recognized defense is that your interest in concealing the weapon to facilitate exercise of your right to keep and bear armsoutweighs the state’s interest in enforcing the concealed weapons statute.

941.23 Carrying concealed weapon
The concealed weapons statute is a restriction on the manner in which firearms are possessed and used. It is constitutional under Art. I, s. 25. Only if the public benefit in the exercise of the police power is substantially outweighed by an individual’s need to conceal a weapon in the exercise of the right to bear arms will an otherwise validrestriction on that right be unconstitutional, as applied. The right to keep and bear arms for security, as a general matter, must permit a person to possess, carry, and sometimes conceal arms to maintain the security of a private residence or privately operated business, and to safely move and store weapons within those premises. State v. Hamdan, 2003 WI 113, 264 Wis. 2d 433, 665 N.W.2d 785, 01−0056. See also State v. Cole, 2003 WI 112, 264 Wis. 2d 520, 665 N.W.2d 328, 01−0350.

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A challenge on constitutional grounds of a prosecution for carrying a concealed weapon requires affirmative answers to the following before the defendant may raise the constitutional defense: 1) under the circumstances, did the defendant’s interest in concealing the weapon to facilitate exercise of his or her right to keep and bear arms substantially outweigh the state’s interest in enforcing the concealed weapons statute? and 2) did the defendant conceal his or her weapon because concealment was the only reasonable means under the circumstances to exercise his or her right to bear arms? State v. Hamdan, 2003 WI 113, 264 Wis. 2d 433, 665 N.W.2d 785, 01−0056

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Ye Gods. Can't get to sleep at night? Crack open a copy of the Corpus Juris ....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.