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Thread: Covered SN illegal?

  1. #1
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    I'm thinking about getting a Crimson Trace laser for my M&P .40, but it covers the only serial number on the pistol. Just curious if this violates any laws I haven't been able to find. The serial number isn't scratched out or illegible.


    http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/Pro...5/Default.aspx

    The SN plate is right under the laser.

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    I dont know of any federal laws about covering the SN, I do know California has a silly law for it, so I can only assume it would be based on the state. VA has no such law.

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    Yeah, Federal is specifically what I'm looking for. There are too many laws, and I'm horrible at navigating them.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Seems like that would be a reasonable question to ask the Crimson Trace folks.

    TFred


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    I only remember it being illegal to "deface" (grind off or otherwise alter) the SN. Don't recall any prohibition of covering it with bolt on hardware.

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    Task Force 16 wrote:
    I only remember it being illegal to "deface" (grind off or otherwise alter) the SN. Don't recall any prohibition of covering it with bolt on hardware.

    I found 27CFR478.34

    Removed, obliterated, or altered
    serial number.

    No person shall knowingly transport,
    ship, or receive in interstate or foreign
    commerce any firearm which has had
    the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial
    number removed, obliterated, or altered,
    or possess or receive any firearm
    which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s
    serial number removed, obliterated,
    or altered and has, at any
    time, been shipped or transported in
    interstate or foreign commerce.


    I just want to make sure there's nothing else I'm missing.


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    Wangmuf wrote:
    SNIP I just want to make sure there's nothing else I'm missing.
    Just the well-deserved disgust at the fedgov's s t r e t c h of the commerce clause.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Wangmuf wrote:
    Task Force 16 wrote:
    I only remember it being illegal to "deface" (grind off or otherwise alter) the SN. Don't recall any prohibition of covering it with bolt on hardware.

    I found 27CFR478.34

    Removed, obliterated, or altered
    serial number.

    No person shall knowingly transport,
    ship, or receive in interstate or foreign
    commerce any firearm which has had
    the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial
    number removed, obliterated, or altered,
    or possess or receive any firearm
    which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s
    serial number removed, obliterated,
    or altered and has, at any
    time, been shipped or transported in
    interstate or foreign commerce.


    I just want to make sure there's nothing else I'm missing.

    Since covering the SN with a mounted accesary neither "removes, oblitorates, or alters" it, there is no faul. I'm assuming that the laser can be removed to reveal the intact SN.

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    I agree with that logic, but it's important to note some states refuse to use logic in their laws.

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    i have one fire arms the slide has to be removed to view the serial number. it can be covered but not altered destroyed or removed, as long as they can remove the sight and the s/n is not damaged or illegible then your are fine.

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    Campaign Veteran GlockMeisterG21's Avatar
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    If it was illegal to cover up a serial number so that it is not readily visible the Smith and Wesson would be in some deep sh!t. Almost all of their revolvers have serial numbers only visible if you eject the cylinder.
    The 1911 pistol remains the service pistol of choice in the eyes of those who understand the problem. Back when we audited the FBI academy in 1947, I was told that I ought not to use my pistol in their training program because it was not fair. Maybe the first thing one should demand of his sidearm is that it be unfair. Col. Jeff Cooper, GUNS & AMMO, January 2002

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    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    Hell for that matter most holsters would be illegal, since they also cover serial numbers. Obliterating a serial number is BTW usually an excersise in futility since unless all the metal is completely cut out - possibly desstroying the usefulness of the weapon - an "obliterated" serial number can quite easily be raised by various metallurgical means such as acid, etc.

    In most "whodunit" murders -meaning those in which the killerand the victim did not know each other, such as gangland killings and the like - the weapon is stolen anyway and so provides little in the way of investigative leads. (Yeah, I know that a little can be quite a lot but still)

    I'd like to run a lottery wherein I would dredge the Anacostia River in DC and have people buy guesses as to how many rusted corroded firearms would be found by running an electromagnet through the dredge spoil. A conservative estimate would be that the bad guys have thrown at least10 thousand of them down there in the last 50 years. I bet a dredging like that would yield at least 500 guns, most with serial numbers intact since they were stolen and used once.

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    GlockMeisterG21 wrote:
    If it was illegal to cover up a serial number so that it is not readily visible the Smith and Wesson would be in some deep sh!t. Almost all of their revolvers have serial numbers only visible if you eject the cylinder.
    And even more of their revolvers have the serial number on the bottom of the frame, normally covered completely by the rubber grips they come with now, and is covered by most aftermarket (Hogue and Pachmayr for example) grips too.

    Older ruger revolvers (security six, etc.) are the same way.

    If it were illegal to cover a serial number, how would we every carry a gun in a holster?

    ETA: but I don't blame you for thinking there might be a dumb federal law about it either...

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    Alexcabbie wrote:
    the Anacostia River...I bet a dredging like that would yield at least 500 guns, most with serial numbers intact since they were stolen and used once.
    Not to mention the plague of boating accidents over the past six months!

    I'll bring the magnet, http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3071135 anybody got a boat?

    Edit: to fix URL

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    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    Well, I bet if the police are reading this thread we just gave them a big idea.

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    Only just now? We truly are leaders.

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    architect wrote:
    Alexcabbie wrote:
    the Anacostia River...I bet a dredging like that would yield at least 500 guns, most with serial numbers intact since they were stolen and used once.
    Not to mention the plague of boating accidents over the past six months!

    I'll bring the magnet, http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3071135 anybody got a boat?

    Edit: to fix URL
    Darn the luck, my boat is still in the shop from its recent accident.

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    architect wrote:
    anybody got a boat?
    Sorry Architect,

    Unfortunately my rowboat sank with all of my guns on it.

    Live Free or Die,

    Thundar
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Wangmuf wrote:
    I'm thinking about getting a Crimson Trace laser for my M&P .40, but it covers the only serial number on the pistol. Just curious if this violates any laws I haven't been able to find. The serial number isn't scratched out or illegible.


    http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/Pro...5/Default.aspx

    The SN plate is right under the laser.
    It is in CA (what's not these days). But there are exceptions for incidental covering authorized or intended by the manufacture. So while a laser sight would be fine, a strip of tape over the SN for example would not.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    California.....

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    inbox485 wrote:
    Wangmuf wrote:
    I'm thinking about getting a Crimson Trace laser for my M&P .40, but it covers the only serial number on the pistol. Just curious if this violates any laws I haven't been able to find. The serial number isn't scratched out or illegible.


    http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/Pro...5/Default.aspx

    The SN plate is right under the laser.
    It is in CA (what's not these days). But there are exceptions for incidental covering authorized or intended by the manufacture. So while a laser sight would be fine, a strip of tape over the SN for example would not.
    Cite?

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    marshaul wrote:
    inbox485 wrote:
    Wangmuf wrote:
    I'm thinking about getting a Crimson Trace laser for my M&P .40, but it covers the only serial number on the pistol. Just curious if this violates any laws I haven't been able to find. The serial number isn't scratched out or illegible.


    http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/Pro...5/Default.aspx

    The SN plate is right under the laser.
    It is in CA (what's not these days). But there are exceptions for incidental covering authorized or intended by the manufacture. So while a laser sight would be fine, a strip of tape over the SN for example would not.
    Cite?
    CA PC 537e.

    537e. (a) Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes
    of, conceals, or has in his or her possession any personal property
    from which the manufacturer's serial number, identification number,
    electronic serial number, or any other distinguishing number or
    identification mark has been removed, defaced, covered, altered, or
    destroyed, is guilty of a public offense...

    ...(c) This section does not apply to those cases or instances where
    any of the changes or alterations enumerated in subdivision (a) have
    been customarily made or done as an established practice in the
    ordinary and regular conduct of business, by the original
    manufacturer, or by his or her duly appointed direct representative,
    or under specific authorization from the original manufacturer.


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