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Thread: BelfairAreaRoundTable, and misinformation

  1. #1
    Regular Member MadHatter66's Avatar
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    -----Original Message-----
    From: Herb Gerhardt <hgerhardt@wavecable.com>
    To: BelfairAreaRoundTable@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:00 pm
    Subject: RE: [BelfairAreaRoundTable] Is Washington an open-carry state regarding guns?


    Well to muddy the issue even more.....

    If anyone feels intimidated or threatened by your carrying a gun, whether you have a concealed weapons permit or not, they can and will call 911. The responding officer will, in all likelihood issue you a ticket for a weapons violation because the RCW is so vague on this issue. That gets the officer out of the loop of this gray area of the law. It is then up to you to explain to the judge the circumstances of the incident and why the reporting person might have felt threatened, and then the judge will make the final determination on whether a violation exists or not and determine the penalty as he/she sees fit.

    So, the bottom line is: If you carry a weapon, don't let anyone see or know you are carrying one, otherwise, you might have to explain the circumstances to a judge regardless of if it was exposed at all times or if you have a valid concealed weapon's permit....... You can be assured there will always be someone around who will feel threatened by your actions simply because they do not feel anyone should even be allowed to carry a gun of any type at any time. Yes, even in Belfair, we have folks with that believe......

    Herb Gerhardt
    Belfair
    -----Original Message-----
    From: BelfairAreaRoundTable@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BelfairAreaRoundTable@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of MSwoboda
    Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 1:18 PM
    To: BelfairAreaRoundTable@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [BelfairAreaRoundTable] Is Washington an open-carry state regarding guns?
    http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattle911...ves/182116.asp
    Is Washington an open-carry state regarding guns?

    Q: I have a concealed-weapons license and can carry a handgun on my person concealed. Can I carry the same firearm "open" and not have to worry about someone calling the police on me?
    I've heard that Washington has a "open-carry" law that doesn't require any license as long as the firearm is within full view on a person. Is this true?
    If someone sees me carrying a firearm am I in possible trouble with the law?
    And pertaining to concealment: If I conceal a firearm on my person but you can see the outline of the gun is this cause for concern or is it OK as long as it's "concealed?"

    A: Here's information from the King County Sheriff's Office:
    Washington is an "open-carry" state. That means a person may openly carry a firearm (pistol, rifle or shotgun) in public without a concealed-pistol license.
    Of course, as with any other "right" there are exceptions. A firearm may not be taken into a courtroom, jail, school, bar or parts of airports, for example.
    In addition, there may be limits as to age, felon, DV conviction, protection order, or specific court order. …
    RCW 9.41.270 provides that it is unlawful for a person to carry, exhibit, display or draw any firearm in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons. A violation is a gross misdemeanor.
    This statute is very fact-specific, but in general, merely walking around in public with the gun properly secured in an exposed holster does not constitute a violation.
    A court will consider "time, place, manner" factors, such as the time of day, whether the area is residential, urban or countryside, the manner in which the weapon is being carried, the size and type of weapon, whether the clip is visibly attached, high-crime area, whether the person waved it around, tossed it when stopped, etc.
    In State v. Spencer, the court … upheld a conviction for RCW 9.41.270 when the person carried an AK-47 with the clip attached on the person's shoulder at 10 p.m., while walking briskly through a residential area with his head down and avoiding eye contact.
    In State v. Mitchell, officers on night patrol saw the defendant and a companion walking down the street in a residential area in Seattle. The defendant was carrying a semi-automatic handgun and as officers passed, they observed him tuck it into his waistband. When the officers stopped them, the defendant tossed the gun into the bushes. The court held that openly carrying such a weapon at night in an urban residential area was sufficient to warrant reasonable suspicion that the crime of unlawful display of a firearm was being committed.
    In State v. Craig, the court held that an eyewitness testimony that a person driving by in a car pointing a gun at the witness was sufficient to support a finding that officers had probable cause to believe that the person committed the crime of unlawfully displaying (a) weapon.
    What might be acceptable behavior on a country road in hunting season would be cause for alarm in an urban residential neighborhood in a high crime area at night. Nonetheless, again typically carrying a properly holstered gun openly will not pass sufficient muster for a violation.
    RCW 9.41.230 prohibits a person from aiming any firearm, whether loaded or not, at or towards a human being. It also prohibits willfully discharging a firearm in a public place or in any place where a person might be endangered. Public places do not include locations where it discharging firearms is authorized.
    RCW 9.41.250 prohibits "furtively carrying with intent to conceal any dagger, dirk, pistol or other dangerous weapon."
    While "open carry" is legal in public, private property is a different matter.
    Private property owners may limit individuals' right to carry on their property. This includes quasi-public property such as shopping malls, restaurants and retail stores.
    The notice may take two forms. First, if a property is clearly marked with very visible signs at all entrances that say "No Firearms Allowed," then it is illegal to bring a firearm onto the property, with or without a CPL. The crime would be trespass.
    If there is no signage and the person with the weapon is asked to leave by the owner or agent and the person refuses, (deputies) can also use the trespass statute. …
    State law controls this area of the law and preempts local jurisdictions from passing more restrictive laws on carrying firearms.

    more questions and answers at: http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattle911...ves/182116.asp


    I am sure that Mr. Gerhardt would love to get some emails from people here, especially some people in Mason County...I sent him one already... And he decided to post his email in a public forum, so his loss...

    I did send him a ton of info, and I look forward to hearing from him...

    Mr Gerhardt is elected to the position of Board President, Hospital District #2... Yet another elected official with bad info. The sad thing is that the King County info is in the bottom of his post, and that was the original question...

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    why in the hell is this guy even talkin about guns in the first place??

    his uninformed rant is in direct opposition to settled law!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Regular Member MadHatter66's Avatar
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    Let me post the back story... Should have done that in the first post...

    A family member send me this, and happens to be a member of the above group. It is an informational group for goings on in Belfair.

    Someone posted the link to the Seattle PI question about open carry, so he decided to chime in...

    The best part is that he is a publicly elected official... hell, google him, anything you want to know about the guy is there... I just googled him to find out if he was anyone, or a no one... To find out that he was elected, just made it that much worse...

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    any update from this fool? i think i recognize him from around town, now im not happy!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    well he does use wavecable that alone should tell you alot

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    Regular Member MadHatter66's Avatar
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    He is a typical elected official, make a statement that is factually incorrect and then hide. I posted a reply in the group, and sent him an email... I did get a reply from someone saying that he is giving a "non-polarized view of OC" and "Herb was simply making a point that RCW maybe one thing but you better take a look at case law to determine how the RCW is interpreted by the courts."

    But has not decided to back up his statement with any factual evidence, making it opinion and rhetoric...

    The wait continues... but if you see him around town, I am sure he would love questions in person...

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    I think people should be outraged if you have to go to court to explain a lawful activity, could you imagine if they did this for pedestrians.

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    Regular Member MadHatter66's Avatar
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    I am outraged, and I don't even live in his county... I am outraged that a public official, who takes tax dollars for a salary cannot even uphold the law, instead he gives outright false information that is his personal opinion. He had to take some kind of oath I am sure, and I would hope that there would be an oath to uphold the laws of the county, state and federal level. I will be doing everyrthing in my power to make sure that the general voting public know about this.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    If anyone feels intimidated or threatened by your carrying a gun, whether you have a concealed weapons permit or not, they can and will call 911. The responding officer will, in all likelihood issue you a ticket for a weapons violation because the RCW is so vague on this issue. That gets the officer out of the loop of this gray area of the law. It is then up to you to explain to the judge the circumstances of the incident and why the reporting person might have felt threatened, and then the judge will make the final determination on whether a violation exists or not and determine the penalty as he/she sees fit.

    Sadly, the above is more truth than misinformation. If the "law" is called, they can issue a citation based on the complaint of the caller. You then will have to see a judge to explain. If the Judge's wife had a headache the night before your "trial" you might just be found guilty. Yes, this all COULD happen because RCW9.41.270 is ambiguous at best and is subject to interpretation by the officer, prosecutor, and judge.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    amlevin wrote:
    If anyone feels intimidated or threatened by your carrying a gun, whether you have a concealed weapons permit or not, they can and will call 911. The responding officer will, in all likelihood issue you a ticket for a weapons violation because the RCW is so vague on this issue. That gets the officer out of the loop of this gray area of the law. It is then up to you to explain to the judge the circumstances of the incident and why the reporting person might have felt threatened, and then the judge will make the final determination on whether a violation exists or not and determine the penalty as he/she sees fit.

    Sadly, the above is more truth than misinformation. If the "law" is called, they can issue a citation based on the complaint of the caller. You then will have to see a judge to explain. If the Judge's wife had a headache the night before your "trial" you might just be found guilty. Yes, this all COULD happen because RCW9.41.270 is ambiguous at best and is subject to interpretation by the officer, prosecutor, and judge.
    i can see alot of you parroting the anti 2Apropaganda. i dont think anyone has been cited for 9.41.270 since state v spencer.

    its really settled law, that a gun, in a holster, may upset some people but it is not an unlawfull thing in and of itself.

    cops see OCers alot, and they know that its not against the law.

    when LEO get a MWAG call, they knowhe may be drinking coffee, or shopping, or taking a walk for some fresh air.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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