Encounter with Orem PD

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Since I decided to OC while waiting for my CFP I had given a little thought to what I would do if I was approached by the police. I never imagined it would happen while I was walking my dog within a couple of blocks of my home. After months without incident I had become complacent.

I think that's why I was shocked this morning when two Orem PD cars stopped a few yards in front of me just north of 400 N on 750 E. The officer in the front car got out and cautiously started walking towards me. I smiled, said "Good morning". He replied and asked me why I was carrying a gun. I smiled and said "Because I can't carry one of you around all the time." I explained that I had a CFP as he walked over and asked me to keep my hands where he could see them. He then informed me that he was going to take my gun out for a second. I didn't say anything but I did slightly raise my arms when he asked and turned my 3:00 towards him.

He asked if it was loaded after he ejected the magazine. I said it was Utah unloaded (I still dry-fire practice every day and I'm too cheap to keep buying new Hornady TAP just for setback). He locked the slide back, inspected the chamber and said "I'm gonna hand this back to you just like this." and re-holstered it for me with the slide locked. Meanwhile the other officer had come over and by this time they were both smiling and chatting. He asked for ID, so I told him it was in my back pocket, he said go ahead and I got my wallet out and handed him my driver's license and CFP.

While this was going on they told me that the person who called them got it wrong about me having a poodle, how people get nervous when they see a gun, we discussed how much we all like Jack Russel Terriers, and he even thanked me for cleaning up after my dog. I had to drop a bag of dog poop to get my wallet out.

After the first officer copied my info off my ID into his notepad, he said something like "My advice is, carry it, carry it all the time, but cover it up." Then he apologized for bothering me. I said "I'm sorry your time was wasted." They both laughed and the first office handed back my magazine. I was very careful NOT to say that I wasted their time. And I didn't conceal, but I didn't take it out of the holster to release the slide and re-insert the mag until I was back in my house. I didn't want to be the object of two MWAG calls in one morning.

I'm sure I didn't handle that perfectly. I really wasn't expecting it, and my heart was pounding. I don't have a problem presenting ID to an officer. But in the future I plan to at least say I'll comply but I don't consent if they want to check my weapon. They were just so darn nice and polite, and I was so surprised that I didn't feel like giving them a hard time.

So I'm interested to hear the collective critique of my actions this morning.

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You did very well I recommend next time telling the officer you do not consent to having your firearm seized. Also I recommend asking the officer these simple questions prior to handing them your ID.

Am I Under arrest ?

Am I free to go ?

This sets precedent for the stop at this point the police officer has to make a decision if you have committed a crime or in the process.

I would recommend recording your interactions on a Voice recorder. And documenting your encounter to include Names, Dates Times.

Recent rulings in court cases state that the firearm alone is not reason to stop you. Because stopping you based on your firearm alone is a violation of your 2nd Amendment.

I practice what is know as sterile carry. I simply leave my ID In the vehicle and if stopped and asked for my ID I state I am not required to carry my Identification.

So carry on my first encounter I did the same thing you did. It takes time and practice to not be nervous when you are stopped by the police.

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Not a terrible experience, but too bad they felt the need to handle your weapon out on the street. If you have a CFP they don't need to see if it is loaded, as you are legal either way.

I would write a letter to the Orem PD Chief not in way of complaint, but to explain the incident and encourage him to train his people on how to handle it without violating your 2nd or 4th amendment rights.

I think overall you handled it just fine. I have been OCing regularly for over 18 months now and haven't had a single encounter with police about my firearm, so I can't really speak from personal experience.

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wow that's crazy! I'm not sure what I would have done had that been me.

However I would have been interested in knowing 1) why they would say to cover it? I would have started to talk about the open carry (or Ipersonally keep the pamphlet with my wallet) & 2) why they were copying down your info? 3) I would have said that I plan on complying fullying however I don't feel it neccessary for you totake my gun out, I would have said is there a reason I'm being detained? than saysomething like I'mnot doing anything wrong (especially if you have a CFP). (It wouldn't have mattered if you had a round in the chamber, you have a CFP so you can carry "loaded" & it can be oc'd).. so you were just minding your business, walking down the street? not near any schools?

I would have gotten their names & hopefully you remember names or faces, than I would plan on either sometime today or soon to have a chat with their superiors. Sounds like another case of opinion enforcement, and sounds like Orem PD needs to get some emails or a talkin too...

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My comments in red. These are things that I personally would have done. I am not suggesting that you do the same, but merely pointing out what actions I would have taken to protect myself from possible infringement.

manithree wrote:

Since I decided to OC while waiting for my CFP I had given a little thought to what I would do if I was approached by the police. I never imagined it would happen while I was walking my dog within a couple of blocks of my home. After months without incident I had become complacent.

I am curious what you mean "I had become complacent". How so?

I think that's why I was shocked this morning when two Orem PD cars stopped a few yards in front of me just north of 400 N on 750 E. The officer in the front car got out and cautiously walking towards me. I smiled, said "Good morning". He replied and asked me why I was carrying a gun. I smiled and said "Because I can't carry one of you around all the time."

I have a personal policy of answering question with more questions. Answers can be used against you. My response to "Why I was carrying a gun" would probably have been "Officer, I do not consent to this encounter, but is there something I can help you with?"

I explained that I had a CFP as he walked over and asked me to keep my hands where he could see them.

I have a second personal policy of never offering anything to officer that he has not demanded. I understand that things could go smoother, such as your example, if i did carry and offer my concealed firearm permit. But I have made the decision to leave it at home, as there s no requirement to possess or present it. When he asked you to "keep you hads where he could see them", this is where I would have asked "Officer, am I being detained?"

He then informed me that he was going to take my gun out for a second. I didn't say anything but I did slightly raise my arms when he asked and turned my 3:00 towards him.

If an officer told me that he was "going to take my gun", I would politely reply "Officer, I do not consent to any searches or seizures of my property or person." If he is persistent, I would repeat my statement with the caveat "but I will not resist if you take it".

He asked if it was loaded after he ejected the magazine. I said it was Utah unloaded (I still dry-fire practice every day and I'm too cheap to keep buying new Hornady TAP just for setback).

Since he already had your firearm in his possession, I would have asked again if I am being detained. It would be clear to me that you were, as he had your property and you would probably not want to leave until he gave it back.

He locked the slide back, inspected the chamber and said "I'm gonna hand this back to you just like this." and re-holstered it for me with the slide locked. Meanwhile the other officer had come over and by this time they were both smiling and chatting. He asked for ID, so I told him it was in my back pocket, he said go ahead and I got my wallet out and handed him my driver's license and CFP.

In Utah, you are not required to produce an Identification card. The police may demand your name, address and an explanation of your actions only if they reasonably believe that crime is afoot. I would not have given them ID, as my CFP is left at home, and I leave my drivers license in my car with the registration. I would have asked again "Officer, if I am not being detained, an I free to go?"

While this was going on we they told me that the person who called them got it wrong about me having a poodle, how people get nervous when they see a gun, we discussed how much we all like Jack Russel Terriers, and he even thanked me for cleaning up after my dog. I had to drop a bag of dog poop to get my wallet out.

My encounter probably would not lead to this type of chit chat, but if it did I would insist that since this encounter is non-consentual, I would like to be on my way.

After the first officer copied my info off my ID into his notepad, he said something like "My advice is, carry it, carry it all the time, but cover it up." Then he apologized for bothering me. I said "I'm sorry your time was wasted." They both laughed and the first office handed back my magazine.

If the officer took my property without my consent, and began to copy info or serial numbers, this is where I would repeat that I do not consent to any searches.

I was very careful NOT to say that I wasted their time. And I didn't conceal, but I didn't take it out of the holster to release the slide and re-insert the mag until I was back in my house. I didn't want to be the object of two MWAG calls in one morning.

This sounds good to me. I would not want to handle a firearm in their presence, and give them any reason to assist me in suicide.

I'm sure I didn't handle that perfectly. I really wasn't expecting it, and my heart was pounding.

Mine still does too.

I don't have a problem presenting ID to an officer.

I do, but that's just me.

But in the future I plan to at least say I'll comply but I don't consent if they want to check my weapon.

Perfect!

They were just so darn nice and polite, and I was so surprised that I didn't feel like giving them a hard time.

Politeness can be deceiving. Remember the phrase, kill them with kindness? Always remember to be polite yourself.

So I'm interested to hear the collective critique of my actions this morning.

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So there you have it. My extreme example of non-cooperation. I understand that everyone will have a different way of dealing with the police, and many will believe that my methods will likely lead to a less than optimal experience. But I am not looking to have "happy encounters". I am looking for "no encounters".

If everyone caves to the demands of the police, they will continue to infringe upon the law abiding citizen. Even if they believe they are "just doing their job" and you think "Oh, it was only a few minutes, and I didn't get a ticket." They have more important things they should be doing instead of bothering a man that is walking his dog.

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manithree wrote:

S....I smiled and said "Because I can't carry one of you around all the time."...

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lol - good one.

As far as the remainder of the encounter, it seems like it went well. Obviously you shouldn't have been stopped at all, but AT LEAST you didn't end up in handcuff for the duration.

While MWAG calls are still happening, its nice to see that with every encounter, the LEOs are, seemingly, becoming more tolerant of us legally carrying our guns.

Good for you bro.

PS- That Sarge is strict, but has great ideas.

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so Orem's website has the following contact info: maybe someone else has better info...

Personally I would contact them as soon as possible and explain the incident: date, time, location, names if you remember, a description of the officers, car number, than explain theywere just doing their job but that you didn't consent to that type of detainment, search/seizure and that they advised you to cover it (which had you not had a CFP they would have been instructing you to do something illegal: you stated it was utah "unloaded" &not concealed)...

Lieutenant Doug Edwards dbedwards@orem.org


maybe I'm just retarded/ignorant but can anyone explain MWAG

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MWAG = Man With A Gun

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ScottyT wrote:

MWAG = Man With A Gun

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LMAO! ok I feel really dumb now:shock:

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SGT Jensen wrote:

manithree wrote:

I am curious what you mean "I had become complacent". How so?

They were just so darn nice and polite, and I was so surprised that I didn't feel like giving them a hard time.

Politeness can be deceiving. Remember the phrase, kill them with kindness? Always remember to be polite yourself.

Click to expand...

So there you have it. My extreme example of non-cooperation. I understand that everyone will have a different way of dealing with the police, and many will believe that my methods will likely lead to a less than optimal experience. But I am not looking to have "happy encounters". I am looking for "no encounters".

If everyone caves to the demands of the police, they will continue to infringe upon the law abiding citizen. Even if they believe they are "just doing their job" and you think "Oh, it was only a few minutes, and I didn't get a ticket." They have more important things they should be doing instead of bothering a man that is walking his dog.

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On the complacency:
Since November 2008 I've been researching handguns and shotguns for me and my wife. I've read 3 Massad Ayoob books, purchased 4 handguns, tried to schedule a time to get to Vernal to be trained by the Mad Ogre (haven't made it), been to the range at least 6 times, introduced half a dozen people to shooting, tried very hard to work out my own personal rules of engagement for defending myself and my family, gotten my CFP, worked on my situational awareness, dry-fired for hours and greatly improved my range performance, read a lot of UCC, OCDO, THR, and wethearmed.com. I feel like I'm trying to be prepared. But when the cops showed up I realized that I really hadn't already decided what I would do and say, and I felt very unprepared for it. In that situation I decided to just be polite and comply.

I have what I call a quick wit (others call it a smart ass), and have been known to give the wrong impression on occasion. So without having rehearsed exactly what I would say, I didn't want to inadvertently say the wrong thing.

I agree on the "no encounters." That's part of why I frequently don't conceal even though I have my CFP. I think my best course of action now is to write a polite letter with links to current case law and send it to the chief. When I get a chance to do that, I'll post it here for review.

Their politeness, care to not represent the advice to conceal as law, advising me to carry all the time, and apologies lead me to believe that they weren't anti-gun and it could have been a teachable moment but I blew it. I have several versions of Utah gun law pamphlets on my computer, but had none in my pocket.

Did I just use an Obama phrase? This really isn't my day.

I don't plan to be as compliant (or cave) in the future. Hopefully I'm already better prepared.

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Here's a draft. Whatta y'all think?

Lieutenant Edwards:

This morning I was legally and openly carrying my handgun on 750 East in Orem just north of 400 North while walking my dog. Two Orem police officers approached, asked why I was carrying a gun, requested identification, took my weapon from its holster, and ejected the magazine and checked the chamber.

The officers were polite. I complied with all their requests and I think I was polite as well.

I didn't indicate to the officers at the time, but I have no doubt that my Fourth Amendment rights were violated. I was not in violation of any federal or state law or any city ordinance, nor did I even appear to be. I have a valid Utah concealed firearm permit (CFP) and informed the officers immediately and presented my permit along with my Utah driver's license as identification.

As a CFP holder I can legally carry a loaded firearm either concealed or openly. When the officer removed my weapon from the holster and checked the chamber the only thing accomplished was endangering the public by increasing the risk of a negligent discharge. Even if it had been loaded I would still have been completely legal.

According to utah law (http://www.le.utah.gov/UtahCode/getCodeSection?code=77-7-15) a peace office must have a reasonable suspicion of a crime to stop and question a suspect. Even if I did not have a CFP I could legally carry with an empty chamber. There was absolutely zero evidence of any crime.

A federal judge in New Mexico has ruled that openly carrying a firearm does not constitute reasonable articulable suspicion (http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/attachment.php?id=7856). While this ruling is not yet binding in Utah it could be cited as precedent that questioning me, and seizure of my firearm constitute violations of my Fourth Amendment rights and Utah law.

I intend to continue exercising my Second Amendment right to carry weapons, openly and concealed. My hope is that in the future nuisance calls such as this can be handled by the great officers in the Orem police department without violating the rights of law-abiding citizens and creating a huge potential liability for the city.

For example, perhaps 911 or police operators could have asked "Is the gun in a holster?" or "Is he threatening anyone or doing anything dangerous?" before dispatching officers to the scene of an obvious non-crime.

If the city does feel compelled to dispatch officers to every "man with a gun" call, perhaps better training on Utah gun laws will prevent future violations and endangerment like those caused by the officers I met this morning.

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I think that sounds good. I agree with SGT Jensen. Don't consent to anything, don't give out any unneeded information. Don't do anything unless you are demanded and first explain that you do not consent.

If you have a moment, go watch "BUSTED: The Citizen's Guide to Surviving Police Encounters" on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA

While I don't condone the use of illegal substances, this video can help you understand your rights during law enforcement encounters so you don't waive your rights.

Good luck in the future!

P.S. I was thinking it might be smart to role play at our meet-ups (if we are in a semi-private location) - and I mean role play LE encounters, not the freaky stuff some of you might be into :lol:

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I would say more, but the sarge said it all.

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bmeldrum wrote:

so Orem's website has the following contact info: maybe someone else has better info...

Personally I would contact them as soon as possible and explain the incident: date, time, location, names if you remember, a description of the officers, car number, than explain(see my suggestion) theywere just doing their job but that you didn't consent to that type of detainment, search/seizure and that they advised you to cover it (which had you not had a CFP they would have been instructing you to do something illegal: you stated it was utah "unloaded" &not concealed)...

Lieutenant Doug Edwards dbedwards@orem.org


maybe I'm just retarded/ignorant but can anyone explain MWAG

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"explain you think that they were just doing there job as they think they needed to but they did violate your rights! There "suggestion" that you cover it is an UNLAWFUL request/demand and NOT ENFORCEABLE

Edited MWAG.... someelse already answered it!

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manithree wrote:

Here's a draft. Whatta y'all think?

Lieutenant Edwards:

...SNIP
A federal judge in New Mexico has ruled that openly carrying a firearm does not constitute reasonable articulable suspicion (http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/attachment.php?id=7856). While this ruling is not yet binding in Utah it could be cited as precedent that questioning me, and seizure of my firearm constitute violations of my Fourth Amendment rights and Utah law.

...SNIP

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Since Utah AND NEW MEXICO are BOTH in the 10th Circuit and this WAS a ruling by a 10th Circuit FEDERAL COURT... I think it IS BINDING IN UTAH until overturned by a HIGHER COURT!

Edit... I am mistaken.... here is the heading from the linked court order....
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF NEW MEXICO

So the original MAY be more accurate... and remember... IANAL!

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JoeSparky wrote:

There "suggestion" that you cover it is an UNLAWFUL request/demand and NOT ENFORCEABLE

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I decided not to bring that up in my letter. He seemed to make it clear that he was stating his personal opinion. LEO's have as much of a right to an opnion as I do.

My primary goal is to try to reduce (the response to) MWAG calls. I plan to OC and I don't want to go through another encounter if I don't have to.

I don't like wasting LEOs time, but if they feel like they must respond, I wouldn't be offended if they drove by and waved. Or even if they just rolled down the window and asked me if I'm legally carrying

Secondly, officers should not search and seize guns from open carriers, especially CFP holders. There's no RAS, and it accomplishes no good.

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Sounds like a good draft- let us know what transpires from all this

I'm curious to know what they have to say... Good luck


on a side note: as it's their personal opinion they need to be careful because asking someone to cover when they don't have a permit is asking someone to do something illegal... (especially when you were in an area that allowed you to carry like that)and personally I wouldn't hesitate to say that to them without disclosing that i have a permit... as SGT said id/permit is left at home & no need to share with them those details

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JoeSparky wrote:

manithree wrote:

Here's a draft. Whatta y'all think?

Lieutenant Edwards:

...SNIP
A federal judge in New Mexico has ruled that openly carrying a firearm does not constitute reasonable articulable suspicion (http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/attachment.php?id=7856). While this ruling is not yet binding in Utah it could be cited as precedent that questioning me, and seizure of my firearm constitute violations of my Fourth Amendment rights and Utah law.

...SNIP

Click to expand...

Since Utah AND NEW MEXICO are BOTH in the 10th Circuit and this WAS a ruling by a 10th Circuit FEDERAL COURT... I think it IS BINDING IN UTAH until overturned by a HIGHER COURT!

Click to expand...

Nope, it's not binding. It's a precedent which other 10th circuit judges must give serious weight to, but it's not binding.

If the ruling were appealed, and the appellate court were to uphold it, then it would be binding on all 10th circuit district courts. Any district court judge who ignored or defied it without giving a detailed -- and GOOD! -- reason why it didn't apply would be in trouble (not sure just how much trouble).

As it is, they should consider it, and if they didn't mention it in their rulings on relevant cases people would wonder why, but it's not binding.

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So a little of topic but relevant. What is the Utah code for Not Having to Carry your CFP. Or show it to a officer if asked.

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gunsfreak4791 wrote:

So a little of topic but relevant. What is the Utah code for Not Having to Carry your CFP. Or show it to a officer if asked.

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It is the same as the open carry law, there isn't one.