Wisconsin Caves to Concealed Carry

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HankT wrote:

The OC issue could be resolved by just requiring whatever CC does. Of course, it must not violate 2A. But requirements should be basically the same for OC as for CC. I'm talking about training, age, personal exclusions, etc.

As long as the restrictions and regulationare reasonable, they could pass muster on 2A.

2A compliance is the main thing.

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VERY WRONG Hank. The resolution is to require whatever OC does, which is NOTHING!

Your suggestion is that we surrender an unfettered RIGHT in favor of a permitted privilege, and then have OC comply is absolutely backward for Wisconsin, and I will not support such a move.

No, we will hold the line on/with OC. Will will not give one inch. We will work to overturn the SZ law both on state (Article 1, Section 25) and federal (2nd) grounds. If the SCOTUS applies the 2nd to the states, Wisconsin wins! Our SZ law has already been found un-constitutional by the SCOTUS.

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I for one support a training requirement. I know that statement will be met with some hostility, but let me explain why. Every incident of a person open carrying, or concealed carrying that accidentally, or intentionally but inappropriately discharges his or her weapon will be jumped on by the anti-gunners. Will training eliminate these kinds of events? No. But I believe they will be reduced greatly with proper training. I think training will help our cause when looked at in a realistic, real-world way.

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I'll second the minimum training requirement. I've attended a number of training courses and have seen certified instructors (who are students) do horrible things. Including head sweeping me twice inside 30 minutes while practicing turning to face a threat. The second time it went ugly fast and we wereseperated for the remainder of the course.

When I shoot at the gun club I see mostly very good muzzle discipline and safety practices. There are always a few goofballs. If a person attends training and can't keep from sweeping people or other basics of gun safetyI don't want them carry around me and mine.

I would guess that most on this forum are 'gun guys' and would not be guilty of such infractions. We must assume that each of our own 'stupid neighbor' will want tocarry too.

No doubt someone will bring up that owning and carrying a weapon is a right not a privelege. And you would be correct. The difference is someone using their 1A rights and exercising poor grammer can't drill a high velocity projectile through a vital part of my body (IMO they are all vital!).

Standing by with a fire suit on.

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ShooterReady wrote:

I've attended a number of training courses and have seen certified instructors (who are students) do horrible things. Including head sweeping me twice inside 30 minutes while practicing turning to face a threat. The second time it went ugly fast and we wereseperated for the remainder of the course.

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'Certification' is of no value.

CQB training is for gallus-snappers, the shotgun chic and merc-wannabes.

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HankT wrote:

But requirements should be basically the same for OC as for CC. I'm talking about training, age, personal exclusions, etc.

As long as the restrictions and regulationare reasonable, they could pass muster on 2A.

2A compliance is the main thing.

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Are you out of your frickin mind? Why don't you and the likes of all your training buddies go some where else? Get the hell out of here! You are nothing more than a training troll!

Training, Training, Training. Take your training and shove it up your arse!

I dare any one of you so called trainers to even attempt to disarm me, please try it!

All of you on here that are such advocates for training are so full of 5hit it isn't funny any more.

Why don't all of you trainers go make your own website and advocate your BS there.

This is suppose to be an informational forum and not a damn advertisement for all of your financial gain.

I will say this once more for all of the new people who are browsing this forum.

YOU DO NOT NEED PERMISSION TO EXERCISE YOUR RIGHTS!
Just do it!

Don't Call
Don't send a letter
Don't ask
Don't be afraid to exercise your rights
Don't be irresponsible

Do act in a mature normal manner.
Do look for signs posted "No Fire Arms"
Do be polite when some one asks why you are open carrying
Do follow and know the current laws regarding fire arms
Do enjoy your god given rights

Never unholster except to load/unload and clear or to defend your life or the life of another. No exceptions!

Doesn't get any easier than that

If you call they could say NO!

If you send a letter they will write you back and then you have it in writing that they said, NO!

If you ask before you go in they will say NO!

You should not be afraid to do something that is legal and your right to do, that is just ridiculous.

Stop and think before you do anything and ask yourself if you are a mature and responsible individual. If you can answer yes then by all means open carry. If not then leave it at home so you do not make the rest of us look bad and interfere with this freedom of rights movement.

If you open Carry be mature and act normal. The only person that knows this is your first time is you, so do not make it obvious.

Look for signs that maybe posted before entering any business to save yourself the hassle. If you are asked to leave then do so immediately, with out question.

If someone asks you why you open carry be honest and tell them. Be polite and help them too understand. They may be interested in open carrying themselves and what you say may be the deciding factor.

Try to at least be familiar with the state laws concerning fire arms and the safe handling of fire arms for your safety and the safety of others.

This is your God given right. Given too you by our fore fathers and fought for by thousand of veterans, many who lost their lives in the fight. So when you OC do it with honor and do it to honor those who gave you the right to do so.

There does not have to be any special plans, picnics or rally just do it!

And that folks is all the training you need!

BE PROUD YOU ARE AN AMERICAN!

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J.Gleason wrote:

Why don't all of you trainers go make your own website and advocate your BS there.

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They did. Gene German bought 'em one. Check its Alexa numbers.

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Constitutionalist wrote:

I for one support a training requirement. I know that statement will be met with some hostility, but let me explain why. Every incident of a person open carrying, or concealed carrying that accidentally, or intentionally but inappropriately discharges his or her weapon will be jumped on by the anti-gunners. Will training eliminate these kinds of events? No. But I believe they will be reduced greatly with proper training. I think training will help our cause when looked at in a realistic, real-world way.

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And I say you are as nutty as Hank T.

Give us some statistics to back up your claims. How many accidental discharges have there been compared to the number of people OCing? and How many Accidental discharges have there been of people who have had this so called formal training of which you desire so much? Do you want me to post some videos of accidental discharges by LEO? or Military? or so called fire arms experts?

So far if you add them up there have been fewer AD's by OCers then ther have by "TRAINED" individual.

Proof that sometimes training gives you nothing more then a huge ego and a small brain.

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Master Doug Huffman wrote:

ShooterReady wrote:

I've attended a number of training courses and have seen certified instructors (who are students) do horrible things. Including head sweeping me twice inside 30 minutes while practicing turning to face a threat. The second time it went ugly fast and we wereseperated for the remainder of the course.

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'Certification' is of no value.

CQB training is for gallus-snappers, the shotgun chic and merc-wannabes.

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So are you saying that any and every threat will pop up right in front of you and stand still?

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Please continue to discourage training. Organ donors are in high demand....:lol:

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J.Gleason wrote:

This is suppose to be an informational forum and not a damn advertisement for all of your financial gain.

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Nobody who stands to gain monetarily has been "advertising". Nobody is advocating a training requirement for OC. Most everyone is behind a VT/AK "style" system where no permit is required to CC. The reality is that some type of training will be requiredto get anoptional permit for reciprocity purposes.

This IS supposed to be an informational forum with a free exchange of ideas. What we have here is false hostile accusations in multiple threads against anyone who even suggests optional training. The reality is that even with a no training required system there are individuals who will and who should seek out training before they take on the responsibility of carrying a firearm. There are individuals with zero firearm experience who wish to defend themselves and their loved ones but lack the most basic tools/skills to do so safely and responsibly. This is reality. These are actual real life people, not internet tough guys and forum trolls. At the Green Bay OC picnic there were several individuals seeking out training. At the Appleseeds the past couple of years there were individuals looking for handgun training. This is reality...

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+1 Interceptor Knight

In addition to the skills learned and built in training it does provide a degree of protection in the inevitable legal battle thatfollows the altercation.

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Interceptor_Knight wrote:

The reality is that even with a no training required system there are individuals who will and who should seek out training before they take on the responsibility of carrying a firearm. There are individuals with zero firearm experience who wish to defend themselves and their loved ones but lack the most basic tools/skills to do so safely and responsibly. This is reality. These are actual real life people, not internet tough guys and forum trolls. At the Green Bay OC picnic there were several individuals seeking out training. At the Appleseeds the past couple of years there were individuals looking for handgun training. This is reality...

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I agree here 100%, there are those who WANT training. How do they get it? Can they afford it?

Just look at Hunter Safety. Every time I hold a class, I could easily have a class of over 100 students, but the VOLUNTEER instructors are not there.

Training is good, more training is better, but making it a REQUIREMENT is the problem.

Show me the solution to the $10 training called "hunter safety" first. When the waiting lists are gone from hunter ed, then we can think about volunteer instructors for an out-of-state carry permit. Until then, any training REQUIREMENT makes it a privilege, not a right.

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Master Doug Huffman wrote:

CQB training is for gallus-snappers, the shotgun chic and merc-wannabes.

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The sport and enjoyment of handguns and firearms in general is not in the carrying, but in the actual shooting. Unless you carry purely for a sense of empowerment which you feel when you do so, you must concede that a minimum skill level is necessary in order to responsibly carry.

To dismiss sport shooting as just a bunch of "wannabes" is no more of a false moral high ground than to claim that those who OC are just a bunch of wannabes..:dude:

Even if you personally do not engage in Cowboy type action shooting or 3 gun or whatever type of shooting sport and training you should respect the fact that others do. Unity is a necessity in this hostile political environment when it comes to gun rights.

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bnhcomputing wrote:

I agree here 100%, there are those who WANT training. How do they get it? Can they afford it?

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Now here is a dose of reality. A tangible factual issue in need of a tangible solution. A breath of fresh air. If cost is the only barrier, the solution should be relatively simple and straight forward.

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Interceptor_Knight wrote:

J.Gleason wrote:

This is suppose to be an informational forum and not a damn advertisement for all of your financial gain.

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Nobody who stands to gain monetarily has been "advertising".

Any fire arms instructor stands to gain monetarily or they would give the training for free.

Nobody is advocating a training requirement for OC. Most everyone is behind a VT/AK "style" system where no permit is required to CC. The reality is that some type of training will be requiredto get anoptional permit for reciprocity purposes.

Really?

Hank T wrote:
"But requirements should be basically the same for OC as for CC. I'm talking about training, age, personal exclusions, etc. As long as the restrictions and regulations are reasonable, they could pass muster on 2A. 2A compliance is the main thing."

This is not advocating training? restrictions? regulation?


This IS supposed to be an informational forum with a free exchange of ideas. What we have here is false hostile accusations in multiple threads against anyone who even suggests optional training.

Show me where any of these so called fire arms instructors have said they believe that training should be optional. I haven't seen the word optional used by one of them.

The reality is that even with a no training required system there are individuals who will and who should seek out training before they take on the responsibility of carrying a firearm. There are individuals with zero firearm experience who wish to defend themselves and their loved ones but lack the most basic tools/skills to do so safely and responsibly. This is reality. These are actual real life people, not internet tough guys and forum trolls. At the Green Bay OC picnic there were several individuals seeking out training. At the Appleseeds the past couple of years there were individuals looking for handgun training. This is reality...

These real life people can ask and receive the information they need right here in this forum. For FREE!

Hell, I will give them a free download of the Wisconsin Fire Arms Manual. It covers the Use of Force and Deadly Force continuum's.

They can practice these in the privacy of their home and become as efficient as any LEO. For FREE.

I am sure I can dig up some Army training manuals as well if they need them although I believe the Wisconsin LEO manual will be sufficient.

The Reality is.... We do not want or need mandatory training as a requirement listed in any up coming Bill. People agreeing with such a stipulation are only showing that they are so eager to get a ccw permit that they will let their right be turned into a privilege just to get that permit in their hand.

It is ridiculous, Most states will honor your ccw permit if you carry in accordance with the laws of the issuing state.

There doesn't need to be training for reciprocity. There needs to be an added clause in the Bill that states that Wisconsin will recognize any CCW Permit issued by any state recognizing a Wisconsin Permit simple as that.

I personally am not going to worry about whether or not some state that I may never again travel too will recognize my permit. If the Bill is written correctly every state should recognize the permit with no questions asked.

Like I stated earlier, if we have to compromise our OC then they can stick that CCW Bill where the sun don't shine.

I have OCed in almost every state and in the presence of LEO and never had one incident where the LEO wanted me to disarm. Yes this was work related, but the laws are the laws and I never had an issue.

There are many here that are looking to the extreme only in an effort to scare people into agreeing that training should be mandatory. It should be an optional item and not even mentioned in the Bill period.

Outside of that, you can herd in all of the sheep you want. I could care less.

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Interceptor_Knight wrote:

Unless you carry purely for a sense of empowerment which you feel when you do so, you must concede that a minimum skill level is necessary in order to responsibly carry.

Training Advocate!

Unity is a necessity in this hostile political environment when it comes to gun rights.

Unity with whom? The training Trolls?

I thought you of all people would be the last to compromise or give in to any of this. Obviously I was wrong.

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J.Gleason wrote:

Interceptor_Knight wrote:

Unless you carry purely for a sense of empowerment which you feel when you do so, you must concede that a minimum skill level is necessary in order to responsibly carry.

Training Advocate!

Unity is a necessity in this hostile political environment when it comes to gun rights.

Unity with whom? The training Trolls?

I thought you of all people would be the last to compromise or give in to any of this. Obviously I was wrong.

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Naah. He's a union organizer.

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What requirements must be met to have a lawful shoot?

How did you gain this knowledge?

Does this mean you pulled your child(ren) out of English class because they didn't need training to exercise their right to free speech?

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Interceptor_Knight wrote:

Please continue to discourage training. Organ donors are in high demand....:lol:

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Ok here are some trained professionals,

Trained DEA Agent Shoots himself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IZlcbJwfP4

Accidental Shooting by LEO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aSJgcpqePk

Accidental Shooting by a plain clothed LEO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0ZnbPiBIOQ

Hmmm, After Hunters safety?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKy5PZcGFuU

These people were all trained.
Need more proof that training doesn't mean you will never have an accident?
Training should be an option only and not mandatory. Why pay for training if it won't guarantee you will never have an accident?

If a person pays for training and then they have an accident, do they get their money back?

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J.Gleason wrote:

Interceptor_Knight wrote:

Training Advocate!

Unity is a necessity in this hostile political environment when it comes to gun rights.

Unity with whom? The training Trolls?

I thought you of all people would be the last to compromise or give in to any of this. Obviously I was wrong.

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You know the unity I am speaking of.

Unity within the shooting sports and those of various firearms interests. You may not participate in some shooting sport or discipline but you should respect the right for others to make that choice.

A basic essential "Minimum Skill Level" does not infer formal training. For those of us raised around firearms, safety and basic proficiency are not thehuge issue it iswith those who have zero or an extreme minimumlevel of experience..

There is a pretty good bandwagon going for demonizing optional training and anyone who would casually advocate or even mention it. It is based on assumptions and false statements.