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Wisconsin Caves to Concealed Carry

ShooterReady

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Who claimed that training makes perfect?

The ultimate responsibility isalways with the individual.

How many of you own or manage a business? Do you train your employees? Of course not, you wouldn't expect a minimum degree of competence.

Go back on YouTube and search ADs again and look at the idiots who can't even figure out how to operate a firearm. Do you want a tool like that busting caps ata convenience store your wife stopped in to pick up a cup of coffee?

Again, don't assume that every CCer or OCer has a gun background and knows the things we take to be common sense.
 

J.Gleason

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ShooterReady wrote:
What requirements must be met to have a lawful shoot?

How did you gain this knowledge?

Does this mean you pulled your child(ren) out of English class because they didn't need training to exercise their right to free speech?
The Requirements:
939.48 Self−defense and defense of others. (1) A person
is privileged to threaten or intentionally use force against
another for the purpose of preventing or terminating what the person
reasonably believes to be an unlawful interference with his or
her person by such other person. The actor may intentionally use
only such force or threat thereof as the actor reasonably believes
is necessary to prevent or terminate the interference. The actor
may not intentionally use force which is intended or likely to cause
death or great bodily harm unless the actor reasonably believes
that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great
bodily harm to himself or herself.
(2) Provocation affects the privilege of self−defense as follows:
(a) A person who engages in unlawful conduct of a type likely
to provoke others to attack him or her and thereby does provoke
an attack is not entitled to claim the privilege of self−defense
against such attack, except when the attack which ensues is of a
type causing the person engaging in the unlawful conduct to reasonably
believe that he or she is in imminent danger of death or
great bodily harm. In such a case, the person engaging in the
unlawful conduct is privileged to act in self−defense, but the person
is not privileged to resort to the use of force intended or likely
to cause death to the person’s assailant unless the person reasonably
believes he or she has exhausted every other reasonable
means to escape from or otherwise avoid death or great bodily
harm at the hands of his or her assailant.
(b) The privilege lost by provocation may be regained if the
actor in good faith withdraws from the fight and gives adequate
notice thereof to his or her assailant.
(c) A person who provokes an attack, whether by lawful or
unlawful conduct, with intent to use such an attack as an excuse
to cause death or great bodily harm to his or her assailant is not
entitled to claim the privilege of self−defense.
(3) The privilege of self−defense extends not only to the intentional
infliction of harm upon a real or apparent wrongdoer, but
also to the unintended infliction of harm upon a 3rd person, except
that if the unintended infliction of harm amounts to the crime of
first−degree or 2nd−degree reckless homicide, homicide by negligent
handling of dangerous weapon, explosives or fire, first−degree
or 2nd−degree reckless injury or injury by negligent handling
of dangerous weapon, explosives or fire, the actor is liable for
whichever one of those crimes is committed.
(4) A person is privileged to defend a 3rd person from real or
apparent unlawful interference by another under the same conditions
and by the same means as those under and by which the person
is privileged to defend himself or herself from real or apparent
unlawful interference, provided that the person reasonably
believes that the facts are such that the 3rd person would be privileged
to act in self−defense and that the person’s intervention is
necessary for the protection of the 3rd person.
(5) A person is privileged to use force against another if the
person reasonably believes that to use such force is necessary to
prevent such person from committing suicide, but this privilege
does not extend to the intentional use of force intended or likely
to cause death.
(6) In this section “unlawful” means either tortious or
expressly prohibited by criminal law or both.

The Source:
http://www.legis.state.wi.us/rsb/stats.html

And your third question isn't worth answering.
 

ShooterReady

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You're right the third question isn't worth answering - thus proving my point.

That's a great lawyer answer you provided, can you break it down to the commonly known and used phrase? Or do you need some training?
 

Interceptor_Knight

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J.Gleason wrote:
Need more proof that training doesn't mean you will never have an accident?
Training should be an option only and not mandatory. Why pay for training if it won't guarantee you will never have an accident?

If a person pays for training and then they have an accident, do they get their money back?

Rhetoric much?:lol:

You can't fix stupid. It is up to the individual to implement and build upon what they have learned. The proper implementations of firearms is not intuitive to most people. If you strap on your handgun just because you can and you lack the most basic skills to put in to use should a threat ever present itself and act to harm you, you will more likely become an organ donor than a hero...;)

Where have you seen me advocate required training?
 

ShooterReady

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J.Gleason wrote:
I refuse to feed the trolls.

Your argument is so compelling you must revert to name calling? Isn't that what the current Presidential administration is doing?

Before you even go there, I do not own, operate, work for or have any financial interest in any firearm training establishment.
 

J.Gleason

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I_K,

Your not specifically stating required training, but you are wording your statements to cause others to come to that conclusion. Otherwise you would specifically state "optional Training."
 

Interceptor_Knight

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J.Gleason wrote:
I_K,

Your not specifically stating required training, but you are wording your statements to cause others to come to that conclusion. Otherwise you would specifically state "optional Training."

I have specifically stated "optional training" sufficiently to negate the need to state it in every post. Unless I specifically state "required training", you have no reason to make any assumptions....

With no proof to support the accusations, they should have died on their own accord long ago if it were not for the train and its water bound conductor. In light of their repeated and predictable most regular appearances, I will state once for the record that my role as a trainer is on a 100% voluntary basis and I receive no monetary compensation for any training I assist with or conduct. I have no dog in the fight of training for profit...
 

ShooterReady

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I_K,

You are correct. They can assume whatever they please.

Thanks for the heads up though.
 

Constitutionalist

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I am not a gun trainer, and will not benefit from training financially. I want to make that clear.

For all the "No training, no permit, no fees, exercise my unfettered right to keep and bear arms" people I have a question: Have you really looked at this whole situation realistically? If you really insist on the "all or nothing" approach, do you really think you will get the all part of the deal? A no permit, no training, carry concealed or open with no school zone, bar, or government building restriction? Don't get me wrong, I would love to get that, but we live in Wisconsin, not Alaska or Vermont.

The politicians will decide these things. The people elect the politicians. The politicians, from whatever side, have only one goal, to get re-elected and perpetuate their power. That's it. Nothing else. Whether it's Bush, Obama, Doyle, Barret, Walker, or even Mark Todd.

The strongly pro 2a people make up what? 2-3% of the population? The strongly anti 2a people make up what? 1-2% of the population? That leaves about 95% of the people, that don't really give a 5hit about guns that decide what politicians get in office, and remain in office. Now, what do that 95% want to see? I am sure they are much more pro-2a than anti, and they would agree to most of what we want, but with some restrictions. No politician wants to be branded the guy that "Voted to allow guns in our schools", or the guy that "Voted to allow people to conceal a gun while getting drunk in a bar." The 95%ers will not like it if they see that in a commercial. Its that simple. So we will retain open carry, and we will get concealed carry, but with some caveats, like training, permits, and fees. Thats what John Q. Public would be ok with, and thats what the politicians will give them.

As far as "Unfettered rights". What other "unfettered rights" do you have?

Can you scream "FIRE" in a theater, or "I have a bomb" in airport? Can you slander or lible someone? No, you can't, the 1st amendment is not unfettered.

Can you buy a anti-tank rocket, or an automatic rifle without a permit? Can a felon own a gun? No, you cant, the 2nd amendment is not unfettered.

Ever hear of a no-knock warrant? There goes the 4th amendment.

Do we do the grand jury thing in Wisconsin for State Felony offenses? Nope, there goes the 5th amendment.

Do judges vacate jury findings and reverse the decisions in cases they don't agree with? Yup, there goes the 6th amendment.

Do you get a trial by jury if you get a parking ticket greater than $20? Nope, there goes the 7th.

Do judges impose bail that there is no chance in hell a person has of posting? Yes, there goes the 8th.

My point is not that "Well, they violate the constituion all over the place, whats another violation". My point is if you argue for an "unfettered right" to carry without restrictions, you will lose, we will lose.

If you really feel that strongly about excercising your rights without restriction, go hunting without a license. When you get the ticket. Go into court, and express that the WI Constitution states you have the right to hunt, and the state cannot regulate a right. See how far that gets you.

And I will not "get off this site and go somewhere else" simply because you and I disagree. That you would ask is an example of your trying to FETTER my 1st amendment rights.
 

AaronS

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I will still fight for "permit free" CCW. It is the correct direction for me to go in.

I do favor good training for anyone that even owns a firearm, but this can be done with simple reading, and with home and range practice. I have no problem at all with a person wanting to pay for any training, but I do not think it should be forced on us. The one thing I would like to see is a carry hand book made by, and for this state. Any areas we can not carry in should be forced to be marked (I do not care how it is marked, as long as all markings are the same state wide). I do think it is in the states best interest to give out as much info. on firearm carry as it can. The state does this kind of marking for "no parking zones", so the same should be done with "gun free zones". I wonder how many Millions it would take to put signs up state wide? I wonder if this might help get ride of the gun free school zone?
 

J.Gleason

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HankT wrote:
J.Gleason wrote:
I refuse to feed the trolls.

Sounds like DougH.

He doesn't answer when he is stuck either...
Not stuck Hank Troll, just not going to play into your game so you can go and complain about me like you did Doug.

Your a training advocate, plain and simple. You will eagerly give up your right for a privilege and you have as much as said so in your previous posts.

Why don't you just go to the site that Gene German has made for all of you a training advocates and stop misleading the people here.

Shooter Ready is obviously not ready or he wouldn't come here and ask such foolish questions all in the name of impressing other trolls.

Asking me if I took my kids out of English class is nothing more than extreme foolishness and nothing more.

Simply thinking that you know all there is to know about about carrying a fire arm because you know the requirements of self defense is ridiculous.

Thinking that because you follow these requirements to the letter will stop some over zealous cop or DA from railroading you is also ridiculous.

You as a State Researcher should know this Hank and not encourage the drama.
 

J.Gleason

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AaronS wrote:
I will still fight for "permit free" CCW. It is the correct direction for me to go in.

I do favor good training for anyone that even owns a firearm, but this can be done with simple reading, and with home and range practice. I have no problem at all with a person wanting to pay for any training, but I do not think it should be forced on us. The one thing I would like to see is a carry hand book made by, and for this state. Any areas we can not carry in should be forced to be marked (I do not care how it is marked, as long as all markings are the same state wide). I do think it is in the states best interest to give out as much info. on firearm carry as it can. The state does this kind of marking for "no parking zones", so the same should be done with "gun free zones". I wonder how many Millions it would take to put signs up state wide? I wonder if this might help get ride of the gun free school zone?
+1000
 

ShooterReady

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J Gleason,

Still waiting for the simple answer on what conditions must be met for an incident to be a 'good shoot'.

Perhaps you're ducking the question because you don't know? That's cool, I won't call younames.

Is anyone who disagrees around here a troll? I spent a fair amount of time lurking to get a feel for the place.I disagree with with one of the veterans he labels me a troll? I can see why the movement has struggled for so long if this is the type of debate offered by the pro gun side.

Think what you may about me. If it makes you feel like a big man to call me names then have at it.
 

Constitutionalist

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A question for Mr. Gleason. I trust that you are for all aspects of the constitution being "unfettered". I mean, you don't think we have a cafeteria constitution that you can pick and choose which parts you think should be enforced and which ones shouldn't, do you?

So if your local town put up a nativity scene at the town hall this December you would be at the next town meeting protesting against it right? Or if someone wanted to start "The Church Open to Homosexuals" and applied for tax exempt status so they don't have to pay property taxes on their land you would be all for it right? I mean the 1st amendment does say "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." after all does it not? And that right is passed down to local government through the 14th amendment right?

Now go ahead and call me a troll.
 

AaronS

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ShooterReady wrote:
J Gleason,

Still waiting for the simple answer on what conditions must be met for an incident to be a 'good shoot'.

Perhaps you're ducking the question because you don't know? That's cool, I won't call younames.

Is anyone who disagrees around here a troll? I spent a fair amount of time lurking to get a feel for the place.I disagree with with one of the veterans he labels me a troll? I can see why the movement has struggled for so long if this is the type of debate offered by the pro gun side.

Think what you may about me. If it makes you feel like a big man to call me names then have at it.
To be honest, I an very happy to see a "new" member that is willing to stand up and speak, even if some do not want to hear it. So, thanks for joining, and keep up the posts. If it makes us talk about issues, then your posts are a good thing. I have also been called names on this site as well... I just don't care about it...
 

J.Gleason

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I am indeed for all rights to be unfettered.

You are arguing as though you are guilty of something.

The fact is, if a CCW Bill is brought to the table there should be no mention of Mandatory training or training of any kind for that matter.

Mandatory or mandated training makes your right a privilege. Just like driving.

The thing I find most amazing is how easily many of the people here will just give in and accept and restrictions or regulation just to be able to say, "I have a CCW permit."

The time is right for the fight. Election time is coming and we hold some serious cards in this game.

These incumbents and candidates can support our rights or they can be unemployed.
We have that in our favor, so why just go in giving something up right away.

The facts are,

They have no statistical proof that gun control does anything to lower crime rates.

None of the ridiculous fire arms laws or restrictions in this state do anything to lower crime rates.

The SCOTUS has on many occasions stated, "an individual does not have to be trained, registered, permitted or pay a fee to exercise their rights."

Do you not find it strange that Fire Arms Instructors from other states are trying to get involved in this legislation? What do you suppose their interest is?

I lived in Alaska for 3 years, the people there never went to the legislative table thinking that they were willing to give up anything to get the system they have now.

They stood strong and were rewarded for their efforts. Why are so many here in Wisconsin not willing to do the same, especially when the timing is in their favor?

Just because something may be "Reality" in your mind does not mean it is truth.

While I do agree that there are genuinely people out there that do want some form of formal training, do need some for of formal training or may just be interested in some information and answers. I do not think that this should be mandatory or mandated into any Bill. In fact it shouldn't even be mentioned in the Bill, period.
 
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