Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 39

Thread: Reaction Overreaction

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, North Carolina, United States
    Posts
    1,424

    Post imported post

    I've been following the threads on here since Wednesday and have noticed the "knee jerk" reactions of people who want nothing better than to get arrested by SPD for criminal trespass because of the gun ban at Seattle Parks & Recreation run facilities.

    PLEASE, for all our sakes, just sit down and think this out. SAF has been on top of this since last year when Mayor Chucklehead first proposed an executive order banning guns in city facilities. They have the people lined up. They have the lawyers. They have the name recognition. And they have close to, if not more than, a year of planning.

    What do we have? We have a bunch of loosely affiliated guys with no clout who want to go off half cocked and prove to the antis that the mayor is right. "These people are too dangerous to have a gun." In fact, they will probably have their gun confiscated and their CPL revoked. Oh, they would get them back eventually, but what a colossal pain in the butt!


    Right now, guys, we have Olympia on our side. We have a nationally recognized group poised to sue,and we have more of the populace on our side than the mayor's office is prepared to admit. So let's just sit tight for now, lend our full support to SAF and let this thing play out in court.

    We're GOING to win. Let's take the high road while we do it and be confident in the outcome. We can educate while we wait. This is the perfect opportunity.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

  2. #2
    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pierce County, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2,013

    Post imported post

    +1 Bookman....going off half cocked is no way to go at all. We have the meetup at Dino's on Sunday the 25th. Let's wait until then to take any action at all. These matters are measured in months or years, not days......

  3. #3
    Regular Member kwiebe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Tacoma, Washington, United States
    Posts
    206

    Post imported post

    I think the OP gave some great advice. But I don't think that should necessarily rule out a sane, measured, public show of support by any group wanting to do so. I think it's even arguable that, by doing so, a group could take the opportunity to promote its cause.

    You have to admit, a well-orchestrated public "demonstration" or whatever you want to call it, as long as it's done correctly, would be very symbolic and could attract much positive attention that otherwise wouldn't happen.

    The key is doing it right. And of course there's no reward without risk.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Olalla, Kitsap County, Washington, USA
    Posts
    1,410

    Post imported post

    The secret is "react", not "overreact".

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Eagle River, Alaska, USA
    Posts
    584

    Post imported post

    Why not an open carry litter pickup in a park, that's civil disobedience that proves gun toters don't need to be feared and can't be used in the media to say people with guns are violent people.

    I have to disagree with you Bookman now is the perfect time for disobedience, if we sit back and let the lawyers be the face of gun owners we lose in the long run because no one see gun owners as regular people or even see's gun owners at all. Look at how capitalism and freedom beat communism and tyranny and yet now people think socialism (communism light) is a good thing.

  6. #6
    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    University Place, Washington, USA
    Posts
    573

    Post imported post

    FunkTrooper wrote:
    Why not an open carry litter pickup in a park, that's civil disobedience that proves gun toters don't need to be feared and can't be used in the media to say people with guns are violent people.

    I have to disagree with you Bookman now is the perfect time for disobedience, if we sit back and let the lawyers be the face of gun owners we lose in the long run because no one see gun owners as regular people or even see's gun owners at all. Look at how capitalism and freedom beat communism and tyranny and yet now people think socialism (communism light) is a good thing.
    :celebrate

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, North Carolina, United States
    Posts
    1,424

    Post imported post

    FunkTrooper wrote:
    Why not an open carry litter pickup in a park, that's civil disobedience that proves gun toters don't need to be feared and can't be used in the media to say people with guns are violent people.

    I have to disagree with you Bookman now is the perfect time for disobedience, if we sit back and let the lawyers be the face of gun owners we lose in the long run because no one see gun owners as regular people or even see's gun owners at all. Look at how capitalism and freedom beat communism and tyranny and yet now people think socialism (communism light) is a good thing.
    There IS a time for civil disobedience. That time is not yet here, though. If the SAF takes the city to court and loses, THEN will be the time. Right now we need to give the system a chance to work.

    However, I could definitely get behind something like an empty holster protest.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

  8. #8
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Whatcom County
    Posts
    17,338

    Post imported post

    I would have to disagree on this. If they loose then we will be arrested with no recourse. I am not a fan of waiting for someone else or for lawyers to play games to engage in a state preemptive legal activity.

    I do agree about not going off half cocked but I think a well organized picnic or something else with a lot of people showing up, will force the city's hand, and bring the case to the forefront.

    Civil rights activist didn't wait for civil rights to be enacted, their actions forced the government to enact civil rights. If they would have waited for Lawyers and the government, how long would it have taken?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, North Carolina, United States
    Posts
    1,424

    Post imported post

    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    I would have to disagree on this. If they loose then we will be arrested with no recourse. I am not a fan of waiting for someone else or for lawyers to play games to engage in a state preemptive legal activity.

    I do agree about not going off half cocked but I think a well organized picnic or something else with a lot of people showing up, will force the city's hand, and bring the case to the forefront.

    Civil rights activist didn't wait for civil rights to be enacted, their actions forced the government to enact civil rights. If they would have waited for Lawyers and the government, how long would it have taken?
    Comparing this to the civil rights movement of the 50s and 60s is comparing apples and oranges. THEY were trying to have fair laws enacted. WE already have the law on our side. Let's give it a chance to work.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

  10. #10
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Whatcom County
    Posts
    17,338

    Post imported post

    We don't have Seattle law on our side, we have state law. So give up state preempted rights, and wait for years for attorneys to fight it out? I think a large gathering is not going to go good for Seattle.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    N47 12 x W122 10
    Posts
    1,762

    Post imported post

    What exactly are the goals behind the movement to skip over and preempt the preparation and planning SAF and CCRKBA have already done to solve this for us?

    You think of group of loosely organized folks without legal representation and financial and political capital is going to cause the city to throw up their hands in surrender?

    People say lets not wait for the lawyers. If one person or even a group of people get arrested for trespass, they're going to need legal representation. It's still going to be lawyer vs. lawyer. Why would their case be resolved any faster than the already planned and strategized SAF case?

    How do people see this playing out, exactly? What will be the turning point for the city? Which specific non-court action will cause them to reverse their policy?

  12. #12
    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Olalla, Kitsap County, Washington, USA
    Posts
    1,410

    Post imported post

    Patience is an elusive virtue.

    I don't know how long it will take for the court system to respond with a TRO, but as far as the members here are concerned, it can't be too soon.

    Any news that anyone has regarding progress that is being made would be welcome, and might quench that flame that the mayor has ignited within our membership.

    No news is definitely not good news.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Olympia, WA
    Posts
    766

    Post imported post

    I'm sure Bookman would have urged Rosa Parks to not make a spectacle of herself by sitting at the front of the bus. In response to the suggestions that people not exercise their civil rights I have one thing to say:

    NONSENSE

  14. #14
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Invisible Mode
    Posts
    6,217

    Post imported post

    44Brent wrote:
    I'm sure Bookman would have urged Rosa Parks to not make a spectacle of herself by sitting at the front of the bus.
    I see no support for your charge that Bookman would have urged Rosa Parks not to protest on that bus.

    You're overreacting.

    Maybe try to come up with a better point or argument....

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Olympia, WA
    Posts
    766

    Post imported post

    I see no support for your charge that Bookman would have urged Rosa Parks not to protest on that bus.

    You're overreacting.

    I'm sure if you think about it for about 5 minutes you'll be able to see the parallel. If you can't figure it out in 5 minutes, try 10 minutes.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Eagle River, Alaska, USA
    Posts
    584

    Post imported post

    Lets not bicker about this vs that we should be discussing what we can do. I think Bookman is right that the lawyers are a very important part of this case. And yes in the sense of what civil disobedience is what I'm suggesting isn't it. Remember they only put in place a rule, so have a large picnic or litter pickup (bring cameras).

    When/if the police arrive and ask you to leave ask them what you are doing wrong and tell them you're not hurting anyone, then you don't have to have an armed sit in on the park you can just leave and come back another time. When people see others with guns picking up trash it breaks up a steryotype they then are forced to admit there is no danger with people keeping the city clean (no pun intended).

    While we may disagree with other members lets try and keep this discussion civil.

  17. #17
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Invisible Mode
    Posts
    6,217

    Post imported post

    44Brent wrote:
    I see no support for your charge that Bookman would have urged Rosa Parks not to protest on that bus.

    You're overreacting.

    I'm sure if you think about it for about 5 minutes you'll be able to see the parallel. If you can't figure it out in 5 minutes, try 10 minutes.
    Didn't think you could or would do it, 44B.

    Yours is just a strawman. A weak one, at that....

  18. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    591

    Post imported post

    hank sure talks cheap. bet his balls are on some chicks mantle and he uses the internet cause he's scared

  19. #19
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Invisible Mode
    Posts
    6,217

    Post imported post

    Boo Boo wrote:
    hank sure talks cheap. bet his balls are on some chicks mantle and he uses the internet cause he's scared
    ???

    Does this even make any sense, BB?

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, North Carolina, United States
    Posts
    1,424

    Post imported post

    Maybe I can get my point across a different way.

    Many of us were or are in the military. Most of the people who fall into this group have had training concerning the use of force. The police are trained the same way (or were at one time). The rules of the use of force boil down to one thing.

    Use the minimum force necessary to solve the problem. This works with corrosion control as well. You use the least abrasive cleaner that will do the job.

    That's exactly what I'm proposing. Any sort of armed demonstration at this point is premature. It's only liable to cause more trouble.

    Don't get me wrong, though. If the peaceful way doesn't work we have to get gradually more "insistent" at which point an armed demonstration is definitely called for. I just think it's not time for that yet.

    Think about it this way. If you get into an argument you don't pull your gun first. You use words. The gun is a LAST resort.

    BTW - 44Brent, don't try to judge me because you don't know me. I would have cheered Rosa Parks. By the time she did her thing the legal system had already been proven not to work. Once again, comparing our situation at this point in time to the Civil Rights Movement is comparing apples and oranges.

    Like I said, we have state law on our side. This thing with Nickels isn't a law. It's a rule; an illegal one. I'm confident the courts will strike it down. If they don't THEN we escalate. It has to be gradual to both work AND keep public opinion on our side. And, yes, public opinion is a weapon we need and can use if we have it.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Eagle River, Alaska, USA
    Posts
    584

    Post imported post

    You have a good point Bookman but like I've been saying open carry litter pickups are not a use of force and all the police will do is ask us to leave (which I don't see why we would), the last thing we need is an armed "protest" we should just do what we've always done on open carry and that is let people know we are decent folk just like them. We don't need to be aggressive about it just peaceable.

    Look at the Heller case the law had a face and that was a good citizen who had been disenfranchised by the local government.

  22. #22
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Whatcom County
    Posts
    17,338

    Post imported post

    I agree with a open carry litter pickup...its not an 'armed demonstration' it is lawfullypartaking in a legal activitythat the state preempts.

    The difference between waiting for State to battle it out with gun organizations, and someone else hopefully a large crowd, is that it will be brought to the forefront, and possible cost Seattle a very expensive lesson, even if the local media isn't with us it will get national coverage and national attention.

    I am not saying to go off half cocked and to take this on by oneself but if a group of us from this forum which it seems to be in the works a well organized and publicized sit in, litter pickup, picnic, than they can count me in. It is going to take some solidarity , I've been harrassed by police I have been arrested I can handle it again.

    What I hope is that other LEO, will join in probably not a chance any Seattle PD but maybe some Sherriffs or other departments will stand up for the Law.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Lynnwood, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2,238

    Post imported post

    44Brent wrote:
    I'm sure Bookman would have urged Rosa Parks to not make a spectacle of herself by sitting at the front of the bus. In response to the suggestions that people not exercise their civil rights I have one thing to say:

    NONSENSE
    First, let me make a point very clear about Rosa Parks. She was not just a lone person who decided one day to just not move. She was involved in the Civil Rights Movement in Alabama and involved in the local chapter of the NAACP.

    Here's a copy paste from Wikipedia:

    Black activists had begun to build a case to challenge state bus segregation laws around the arrest of a 15-year-old girl, Claudette Colvin, a student at Booker T. Washington High School in Montgomery. On March 2, 1955, Colvin was handcuffed, arrested and forcibly removed from a public bus when she refused to give up her seat to a white man. She claimed that her constitutional rights were being violated. At the time, Colvin was active in the NAACP Youth Council, a group to which Rosa Parks served as Advisor.

    Colvin recollected, "Mrs. Parks said, 'do what is right.'" Parks was raising money for Colvin's defense, but when E.D. Nixon learned that Colvin was pregnant, it was decided that Colvin was an unsuitable symbol for their cause. Soon after her arrest she had conceived a child with a much older married man, a moral transgression that scandalized the deeply religious black community. Strategists believed that the segregationist white press would use Colvin's pregnancy to undermine any boycott. The NAACP also had considered, but rejected, earlier protesters deemed unable or unsuitable to withstand the pressures of cross-examination in a legal challenge to racial segregation laws. Colvin was also known to engage in verbal outbursts and cursing. Many of the legal charges against Colvin were dropped. A boycott didn't materialize from the Colvin case, and legal strategists continued to seek a complainant beyond reproach.


    From the Montgomery Bus Boycott Wikipedia Article:

    Nixon intended that her arrest be a test case to allow Montgomery's black citizens to challenge segregation on the city's public buses. With this goal, community leaders had been waiting for the right person to be arrested, a person who would anger the black community into action, who would agree to test the segregation laws in court, and who, most importantly, was "above reproach." When fifteen year old Claudette Colvin was arrested early in 1955 for refusing to give up her seat to a white man, E.D. Nixon thought he had found the perfect person, but the teenager turned out to be pregnant. Nixon later explained, "I had to be sure that I had somebody I could win with." Parks, however, was a good candidate because of her employment and marital status, along with her good standing in the community.

    That complainant became Rosa Parks. She was carefully selected from a pool of volunteers. Some of the history books tell the story of the refusal, but don't tell the story of what happened before or after. Montgomery Bus Boycott occured. Btw, the Montgomery authorities were even arresting people for REFUSING to take the bus, under some ordinance which made it illegal to "hinder the operations" of the buses, which included refusing to board them and pay for them. They put MLK in a jail cell for 2 weeks over it, and only when the national media got wind of it and started broadcasting about what Montgomery was doing that MLK and others were released and the charges dropped.

    The later civil case, which occurred the next year, was Browder v. Gayle. Again, all people carefully chosen. It resulted in the federal courts ordering public transit buses desegregated, and ended the Montgomery Bus Boycott (which lasted 381 days).

  24. #24
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Whatcom County
    Posts
    17,338

    Post imported post

    She still is an excellent example of civil disobedience carefully chosen or not, and a courageous person for her actions. And the perfect example that shows how Government enacted laws e.g. Civil rights acts because of actions of people not the other way around.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, North Carolina, United States
    Posts
    1,424

    Post imported post

    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    She still is an excellent example of civil disobedience carefully chosen or not, and a courageous person for her actions. And the perfect example that shows how Government enacted laws e.g. Civil rights acts because of actions of people not the other way around.
    This is EXACTLY my point. The law is already on our side. We need to give it a chance to work.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •