Reaction Overreaction

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I've been following the threads on here since Wednesday and have noticed the "knee jerk" reactions of people who want nothing better than to get arrested by SPD for criminal trespass because of the gun ban at Seattle Parks & Recreation run facilities.

PLEASE, for all our sakes, just sit down and think this out. SAF has been on top of this since last year when Mayor Chucklehead first proposed an executive order banning guns in city facilities. They have the people lined up. They have the lawyers. They have the name recognition. And they have close to, if not more than, a year of planning.

What do we have? We have a bunch of loosely affiliated guys with no clout who want to go off half cocked and prove to the antis that the mayor is right. "These people are too dangerous to have a gun." In fact, they will probably have their gun confiscated and their CPL revoked. Oh, they would get them back eventually, but what a colossal pain in the butt!


Right now, guys, we have Olympia on our side. We have a nationally recognized group poised to sue,and we have more of the populace on our side than the mayor's office is prepared to admit. So let's just sit tight for now, lend our full support to SAF and let this thing play out in court.

We're GOING to win. Let's take the high road while we do it and be confident in the outcome. We can educate while we wait. This is the perfect opportunity.

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+1 Bookman....going off half cocked is no way to go at all. We have the meetup at Dino's on Sunday the 25th. Let's wait until then to take any action at all. These matters are measured in months or years, not days......

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I think the OP gave some great advice. But I don't think that should necessarily rule out a sane, measured, public show of support by any group wanting to do so. I think it's even arguable that, by doing so, a group could take the opportunity to promote its cause.

You have to admit, a well-orchestrated public "demonstration" or whatever you want to call it, as long as it's done correctly, would be very symbolic and could attract much positive attention that otherwise wouldn't happen.

The key is doing it right. And of course there's no reward without risk.

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The secret is "react", not "overreact".

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Why not an open carry litter pickup in a park, that's civil disobedience that proves gun toters don't need to be feared and can't be used in the media to say people with guns are violent people.

I have to disagree with you Bookman now is the perfect time for disobedience, if we sit back and let the lawyers be the face of gun owners we lose in the long run because no one see gun owners as regular people or even see's gun owners at all. Look at how capitalism and freedom beat communism and tyranny and yet now people think socialism (communism light) is a good thing.

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FunkTrooper wrote:

Why not an open carry litter pickup in a park, that's civil disobedience that proves gun toters don't need to be feared and can't be used in the media to say people with guns are violent people.

I have to disagree with you Bookman now is the perfect time for disobedience, if we sit back and let the lawyers be the face of gun owners we lose in the long run because no one see gun owners as regular people or even see's gun owners at all. Look at how capitalism and freedom beat communism and tyranny and yet now people think socialism (communism light) is a good thing.

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:celebrate

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FunkTrooper wrote:

Why not an open carry litter pickup in a park, that's civil disobedience that proves gun toters don't need to be feared and can't be used in the media to say people with guns are violent people.

I have to disagree with you Bookman now is the perfect time for disobedience, if we sit back and let the lawyers be the face of gun owners we lose in the long run because no one see gun owners as regular people or even see's gun owners at all. Look at how capitalism and freedom beat communism and tyranny and yet now people think socialism (communism light) is a good thing.

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There IS a time for civil disobedience. That time is not yet here, though. If the SAF takes the city to court and loses, THEN will be the time. Right now we need to give the system a chance to work.

However, I could definitely get behind something like an empty holster protest.

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I would have to disagree on this. If they loose then we will be arrested with no recourse. I am not a fan of waiting for someone else or for lawyers to play games to engage in a state preemptive legal activity.

I do agree about not going off half cocked but I think a well organized picnic or something else with a lot of people showing up, will force the city's hand, and bring the case to the forefront.

Civil rights activist didn't wait for civil rights to be enacted, their actions forced the government to enact civil rights. If they would have waited for Lawyers and the government, how long would it have taken?

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sudden valley gunner wrote:

I would have to disagree on this. If they loose then we will be arrested with no recourse. I am not a fan of waiting for someone else or for lawyers to play games to engage in a state preemptive legal activity.

I do agree about not going off half cocked but I think a well organized picnic or something else with a lot of people showing up, will force the city's hand, and bring the case to the forefront.

Civil rights activist didn't wait for civil rights to be enacted, their actions forced the government to enact civil rights. If they would have waited for Lawyers and the government, how long would it have taken?

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Comparing this to the civil rights movement of the 50s and 60s is comparing apples and oranges. THEY were trying to have fair laws enacted. WE already have the law on our side. Let's give it a chance to work.

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We don't have Seattle law on our side, we have state law. So give up state preempted rights, and wait for years for attorneys to fight it out? I think a large gathering is not going to go good for Seattle.

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What exactly are the goals behind the movement to skip over and preempt the preparation and planning SAF and CCRKBA have already done to solve this for us?

You think of group of loosely organized folks without legal representation and financial and political capital is going to cause the city to throw up their hands in surrender?

People say lets not wait for the lawyers. If one person or even a group of people get arrested for trespass, they're going to need legal representation. It's still going to be lawyer vs. lawyer. Why would their case be resolved any faster than the already planned and strategized SAF case?

How do people see this playing out, exactly? What will be the turning point for the city? Which specific non-court action will cause them to reverse their policy?

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Patience is an elusive virtue.

I don't know how long it will take for the court system to respond with a TRO, but as far as the members here are concerned, it can't be too soon.

Any news that anyone has regarding progress that is being made would be welcome, and might quench that flame that the mayor has ignited within our membership.

No news is definitely not good news.

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I'm sure Bookman would have urged Rosa Parks to not make a spectacle of herself by sitting at the front of the bus. In response to the suggestions that people not exercise their civil rights I have one thing to say:

[align=center]NONSENSE[/align]

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44Brent wrote:

I'm sure Bookman would have urged Rosa Parks to not make a spectacle of herself by sitting at the front of the bus.

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I see no support for your charge that Bookman would have urged Rosa Parks not to protest on that bus.

You're overreacting.

Maybe try to come up with a better point or argument....

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I see no support for your charge that Bookman would have urged Rosa Parks not to protest on that bus.

You're overreacting.

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I'm sure if you think about it for about 5 minutes you'll be able to see the parallel. If you can't figure it out in 5 minutes, try 10 minutes.

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Lets not bicker about this vs that we should be discussing what we can do. I think Bookman is right that the lawyers are a very important part of this case. And yes in the sense of what civil disobedience is what I'm suggesting isn't it. Remember they only put in place a rule, so have a large picnic or litter pickup (bring cameras).

When/if the police arrive and ask you to leave ask them what you are doing wrong and tell them you're not hurting anyone, then you don't have to have an armed sit in on the park you can just leave and come back another time. When people see others with guns picking up trash it breaks up a steryotype they then are forced to admit there is no danger with people keeping the city clean (no pun intended).

While we may disagree with other members lets try and keep this discussion civil.

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44Brent wrote:

I see no support for your charge that Bookman would have urged Rosa Parks not to protest on that bus.

You're overreacting.

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I'm sure if you think about it for about 5 minutes you'll be able to see the parallel. If you can't figure it out in 5 minutes, try 10 minutes.

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Didn't think you could or would do it, 44B.

Yours is just a strawman. A weak one, at that....

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hank sure talks cheap. bet his balls are on some chicks mantle and he uses the internet cause he's scared

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Boo Boo wrote:

hank sure talks cheap. bet his balls are on some chicks mantle and he uses the internet cause he's scared

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???

Does this even make any sense, BB?

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Maybe I can get my point across a different way.

Many of us were or are in the military. Most of the people who fall into this group have had training concerning the use of force. The police are trained the same way (or were at one time). The rules of the use of force boil down to one thing.

Use the minimum force necessary to solve the problem. This works with corrosion control as well. You use the least abrasive cleaner that will do the job.

That's exactly what I'm proposing. Any sort of armed demonstration at this point is premature. It's only liable to cause more trouble.

Don't get me wrong, though. If the peaceful way doesn't work we have to get gradually more "insistent" at which point an armed demonstration is definitely called for. I just think it's not time for that yet.

Think about it this way. If you get into an argument you don't pull your gun first. You use words. The gun is a LAST resort.

BTW - 44Brent, don't try to judge me because you don't know me. I would have cheered Rosa Parks. By the time she did her thing the legal system had already been proven not to work. Once again, comparing our situation at this point in time to the Civil Rights Movement is comparing apples and oranges.

Like I said, we have state law on our side. This thing with Nickels isn't a law. It's a rule; an illegal one. I'm confident the courts will strike it down. If they don't THEN we escalate. It has to be gradual to both work AND keep public opinion on our side. And, yes, public opinion is a weapon we need and can use if we have it.