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Thread: Harassed at abortion clinic for OC'ing

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    [flash=320,256]http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/uWhsF9I9lOc[/flash]

    I was standing on the corner of the street where an abortion clinic is "peaceably assembling" (NOT protesting). Two GPOs came up and were harassing one of the other people assembled. I walked up with phone out recording, when they notice I was open carrying (Smith & Wesson M&P .40).

    I found out that after I left (I left maybe 45 mins AFTER this video) a detective came looking for me. Next weekend should be interesting.

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    jp49911 wrote:

    I was standing on the corner of the street where an abortion clinic is "peaceably assembling" (NOT protesting). Two GPOs came up and were harassing one of the other people assembled. I walked up with phone out recording, when they notice I was open carrying (Smith & Wesson M&P .40).
    How were the two GPOs "harrasing one of the other people assembled?"

    Be specific, please.

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    HankT wrote:
    jp49911 wrote:

    I was standing on the corner of the street where an abortion clinic is "peaceably assembling" (NOT protesting). Two GPOs came up and were harassing one of the other people assembled. I walked up with phone out recording, when they notice I was open carrying (Smith & Wesson M&P .40).
    How were the two GPOs "harrasing one of the other people assembled?"

    Be specific, please.
    They came and told them they needed to move from where they were. The police have been out there before and we have checked the property line, so we know where we can stand.

    Once they saw that we knew where we could and could not be and would assert our right to stand where we wanted, it turned into classic "I'm a police officer you BETTER do what I say regardless of the lawfulness of the order" intimidation tactics.

    Statements like: "If you don't move up there I will physically move you up there" etc.

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    jp49911 wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    jp49911 wrote:

    I was standing on the corner of the street where an abortion clinic is "peaceably assembling" (NOT protesting). Two GPOs came up and were harassing one of the other people assembled. I walked up with phone out recording, when they notice I was open carrying (Smith & Wesson M&P .40).
    How were the two GPOs "harrasing one of the other people assembled?"

    Be specific, please.
    They came and told them they needed to move from where they were. The police have been out there before and we have checked the property line, so we know where we can stand.

    Once they saw that we knew where we could and could not be and would assert our right to stand where we wanted, it turned into classic "I'm a police officer you BETTER do what I say regardless of the lawfulness of the order" intimidation tactics.

    Statements like: "If you don't move up there I will physically move you up there" etc.
    Did you know these details before you walked up (OCing) to the officer/citizens confrontation that was filmed?

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    HankT wrote:
    jp49911 wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    jp49911 wrote:

    I was standing on the corner of the street where an abortion clinic is "peaceably assembling" (NOT protesting). Two GPOs came up and were harassing one of the other people assembled. I walked up with phone out recording, when they notice I was open carrying (Smith & Wesson M&P .40).
    How were the two GPOs "harrasing one of the other people assembled?"

    Be specific, please.
    They came and told them they needed to move from where they were. The police have been out there before and we have checked the property line, so we know where we can stand.

    Once they saw that we knew where we could and could not be and would assert our right to stand where we wanted, it turned into classic "I'm a police officer you BETTER do what I say regardless of the lawfulness of the order" intimidation tactics.

    Statements like: "If you don't move up there I will physically move you up there" etc.
    Did you know these details before you walked up (OCing) to the officer/citizens confrontation that was filmed?
    No. Are you trying to imply that I needed to know the situation before I recorded it? Where are you going with this line of questioning? If you are trying to make a statement, feel free to do so...

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    great job...I could just watch that vid over and over again....All that cop wanted to do was violate your rights....

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    That's all it was and once they saw that.

    a) we knew our rights
    b) we wouldn't give up our rights because of intimidation
    and c) they were being recorded (a police officers worst nightmare)

    They were livid!

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    Bravo! That guy turned right around on his heel when he realized several important things that saved your ass from him making up his own story later.

    -You at least appeared to know the laws relating to your conduct
    -There were several people standing within earshot that clearly would have witnessed on your behalf
    -It was being recorded to boot

    If you had been alone with no recording I can almost guarantee you he would have cuffed you and made up whatever story he wanted later
    "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain

    I don't bother with pragmatic statistics while discussing my constitutional rights. The issue is far less complex, to me. Free men should be able to act like free men.

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    Smith45acp wrote:
    Bravo! That guy turned right around on his heel when he realized several important things that saved your ass from him making up his own story later.

    -You at least appeared to know the laws relating to your conduct
    -There were several people standing within earshot that clearly would have witnessed on your behalf
    -It was being recorded to boot

    If you had been alone with no recording I can almost guarantee you he would have cuffed you and made up whatever story he wanted later
    No doubt. That's why I ALWAYS keep my phone handy to record up to a server. I got a lil nervous afterward because I saw my battery was low and I thought I might need it when backup came, but when they showed up it was anti-climatic.

    Note: they were digging through a book of statutes to try to find something to use on me. Pretty amusing.

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    jp49911 wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    jp49911 wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    jp49911 wrote:

    I was standing on the corner of the street where an abortion clinic is "peaceably assembling" (NOT protesting). Two GPOs came up and were harassing one of the other people assembled. I walked up with phone out recording, when they notice I was open carrying (Smith & Wesson M&P .40).
    How were the two GPOs "harrasing one of the other people assembled?"

    Be specific, please.
    They came and told them they needed to move from where they were. The police have been out there before and we have checked the property line, so we know where we can stand.

    Once they saw that we knew where we could and could not be and would assert our right to stand where we wanted, it turned into classic "I'm a police officer you BETTER do what I say regardless of the lawfulness of the order" intimidation tactics.

    Statements like: "If you don't move up there I will physically move you up there" etc.
    Did you know these details before you walked up (OCing) to the officer/citizens confrontation that was filmed?
    No. Are you trying to imply that I needed to know the situation before I recorded it? Where are you going with this line of questioning? If you are trying to make a statement, feel free to do so...

    So if you didn't know the details before you walked up, how could you know that those guys were getting "harrassed?" If you didn't know they were being "harassed,"what was your rationale for walking over there (OCing) to become part of the LEO/citizens interaction?

    Also, were you part of the group that was "peaceably assembling?" Did you know those guys? Talk to them before you started filming?

    I'm curious.




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    What I find most interesting is that with all the agitation that he approaches you with he ultimately turned his back on you! Must not have been much of a threat.

    And FWIW, I figure that you are aware of this one and that it seems to be geared towards Abortion clinics as a "private healthcare facility". And they use the word demonstration, not protest. Watch yourself out there.

    14‑277.2. Weapons at parades, etc., prohibited.
    (a) It shall be unlawful for any person participating in, affiliated with, or present as a spectator at any parade, funeral procession, picket line, or demonstration upon any private health care facility or upon any public place owned or under the control of the State or any of its political subdivisions to willfully or intentionally possess or have immediate access to any dangerous weapon. Violation of this subsection shall be a Class 1 misdemeanor. It shall be presumed that any rifle or gun carried on a rack in a pickup truck at a holiday parade or in a funeral procession does not violate the terms of this act.

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    What was up with the cop going for his gun at about 15 seconds into the recording?

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    jp49911 wrote:

    I was standing on the corner of the street where an abortion clinic is "peaceably assembling" (NOT protesting). Two GPOs came up and were harassing one of the other people assembled. I walked up with phone out recording, when they notice I was open carrying (Smith & Wesson M&P .40).

    I found out that after I left (I left maybe 45 mins AFTER this video) a detective came looking for me. Next weekend should be interesting.
    If you weren't part of the crowd that was "peaceably assembling" I'd say you had no business sticking your nose in whatever was going on.

    If you were part part of the crowd that was "peaceably assembling" I'd question your judgment. Anti-abortion rallies can get steamy and with that doc getting shot in Kansas that would be last place I would OC.

    If I were a LEO, and I was interacting with two people, and some third part started getting up in my space with a pistol, I'd be pretty pissed off too.

    Just my .02

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    HankT wrote:
    jp49911 wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    jp49911 wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    jp49911 wrote:

    I was standing on the corner of the street where an abortion clinic is "peaceably assembling" (NOT protesting). Two GPOs came up and were harassing one of the other people assembled. I walked up with phone out recording, when they notice I was open carrying (Smith & Wesson M&P .40).
    How were the two GPOs "harrasing one of the other people assembled?"

    Be specific, please.
    They came and told them they needed to move from where they were. The police have been out there before and we have checked the property line, so we know where we can stand.

    Once they saw that we knew where we could and could not be and would assert our right to stand where we wanted, it turned into classic "I'm a police officer you BETTER do what I say regardless of the lawfulness of the order" intimidation tactics.

    Statements like: "If you don't move up there I will physically move you up there" etc.
    Did you know these details before you walked up (OCing) to the officer/citizens confrontation that was filmed?
    No. Are you trying to imply that I needed to know the situation before I recorded it? Where are you going with this line of questioning? If you are trying to make a statement, feel free to do so...

    So if you didn't know the details before you walked up, how could you know that those guys were getting "harrassed?" If you didn't know they were being "harassed,"what was your rationale for walking over there (OCing) to become part of the LEO/citizens interaction?

    Also, were you part of the group that was "peaceably assembling?" Did you know those guys? Talk to them before you started filming?

    I'm curious.


    I didn't "know" they were getting harassed when I first walked up but deductive reasoning told me it was very likely they were because I watched them from far off for about 10-15 min. before I approached.

    I put "Harassed" in the title because after the fact I "KNEW" that they had been harassed.

    Yes I was peaceably assembling there and I knew those people.

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    chiefjason wrote:
    What I find most interesting is that with all the agitation that he approaches you with he ultimately turned his back on you! Must not have been much of a threat.

    And FWIW, I figure that you are aware of this one and that it seems to be geared towards Abortion clinics as a "private healthcare facility". And they use the word demonstration, not protest. Watch yourself out there.

    14‑277.2. Weapons at parades, etc., prohibited.
    (a) It shall be unlawful for any person participating in, affiliated with, or present as a spectator at any parade, funeral procession, picket line, or demonstration upon any private health care facility or upon any public place owned or under the control of the State or any of its political subdivisions to willfully or intentionally possess or have immediate access to any dangerous weapon. Violation of this subsection shall be a Class 1 misdemeanor. It shall be presumed that any rifle or gun carried on a rack in a pickup truck at a holiday parade or in a funeral procession does not violate the terms of this act.
    Yeah, I knew about this but thanks for posting. Again we were NOT on their property and we were merely assembling.

    BTW thanks for pointing out that he turned his back so he knew I posed no threat. If I were a threat or was breaking the law I'd have been shot, tassed, pepper sprayed or arrested (I guess that's the descending order of the likely outcomes).

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    kwikrnu wrote:
    What was up with the cop going for his gun at about 15 seconds into the recording?
    Yeah I DEFINITELY noticed that but surprisingly it didn't rattle me at all (my have been different if he drew???).

    He was probably just nervous.

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    JD wrote:
    If you weren't part of the crowd that was "peaceably assembling" I'd say you had no business sticking your nose in whatever was going on.
    I'd say you are wrong. Would you say it was none of my business if two thugs were harassing two people on the street and I could get record of it? These were two thugs with badges; the badges don't change the injustice in my mind (though I realize most people feel it's ok to be violated as long as it's a cop).

    I see owning a weapon different than most and probably more in line with the founders of this country than a lot of people. The biggest threat and reason to be armed is for an oppressive government.

    It's more important and more courageous to contend for the rights of my neighbor than to only take a stand when injustice is on my doorstep.

    JD wrote:
    If you were part of the crowd that was "peaceably assembling" I'd question your judgement. Anti-abortion rallies can get steamy and with that doc getting shot in Kansas that would be the last place I would OC.
    You may question my judgment; I have no problem with that. If you feel anti-abortion rallies can get steamy, then wouldn't that be more reason to be able to protect yourself (although this was not a rally)? Friends of mine there have had rocks thrown at them for standing near abortion clinics so you are right; there is a threat of violence (as there is a potential threat everywhere you go).

    Why would a doc in Kansas change what I do in Greensboro? I wasn't there to shoot anybody. I wasn't OC'ing to make any kind of statement. OC'ing is a part of my lifestyle. I OC on a daily basis.

    JD wrote:
    If I were LEO, and I was interacting with two people, and some third part started getting up in my space with a pistol, Id be pretty pissed too.
    JD you continue to make a faulty assessment of my judgment and the situation. At what point in the video did I get "up in his space"? If you were LEO "interacting" with two people in a legal and reasonable manner shouldn't you WANT a record of the situation? Why would you feel threatened? Maybe because you would know that you are legally and morally WRONG?

    It's obvious he was pissed with me before he EVER saw my weapon. The second he saw me walking up IMMEDIATELY "you're trespassing too!" . I was trespassing???LOL !

    He was pissed because how dare I observe the police doing their job from a reasonable distance and even further record him and not submit to everything they want me to do?

    His anger was escalated because "Hey! What the hell are you doing? No one is supposed to be armed to defend themselves but us; the boys in blue. You see this uniform? YOU SEE THIS UNIFORM? We don't enforce the law, we ARE the law. Now put your hands on the hood before I tase you"

    Obviously you feel his escalated pissedness was warranted and you share his train of thought. Just do me a favor and sit on the other side of the FEMA camp when this police state fully manifests.

    BTW, JK about the FEMA camps. I have no intention of being in there with you :celebrate

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    So let me get this straight...

    You were just milling around, "peaceably assembling" with some friends outside a clinic that provides abortion services, but you weren't "protesting or demonstrating?

    So why were you there?

    To mow their grass? To sing "Koombaya"? Perhaps you were there to get some sort of perfectly legal ObGyn medical treatment? Or maybe you were waiting to be "safe passage escorts" for the staff and clients, and were OCing, so it would deter any potential nutjob from attacking them?

    OK, maybe I can understand why you might be carrying. There are some CRAZY people who hang around those sorts of medical facilities, just waiting to attack, main, injure, and even kill the staff and their clients in the name of "morals" and "the right to life"...

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5193168.shtml

    http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-4185521.html

    http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-902817.html

    http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/...-abortion.html

    No?

    Oh, I get it, you don't like the fact that there is a law you disagree with, and sometimes people avail themselves of an activity that you disagree with, and so you feel that by haning out around this facility, you can somehow impress upon these people that what they are doing is wrong, and through your rhetoric you can impress upon the community that this activity, which you disagree with but is perfectly legal, is somehow not acceptable?

    You mean you don't agree that people who are engaged in a legal activity should be left alone, and not harassed, intimidated, or otherwise made to feel threatened? Hmmmm...

    Think about that the next time a cop someone gets up in your face because he knows what you're doing is legal, but he doesn't like it.


    You may want to review the EXACT wording of the NC Statute:
    14‑277.2. Weapons at parades, etc., prohibited.
    (a) It shall be unlawful for any person participating in, affiliated with, or present as a spectator at any parade, funeral procession, picket line, or demonstration upon any private health care facility or upon any public place owned or under the control of the State or any of its political subdivisions to willfully or intentionally possess or have immediate access to any dangerous weapon. Violation of this subsection shall be a Class 1 misdemeanor. It shall be presumed that any rifle or gun carried on a rack in a pickup truck at a holiday parade or in a funeral procession does not violate the terms of this act.
    You will notice in the bolded passage (emphasis added) that it does NOT say it is unlawful to carry on the property of such a facility. It states it is illegal to carry while demonstrating upon such a facility. That word "upon" is where it gets tricky, and where you run afoul of the law if you were, in fact, part of this "peaceable assembly". In this statute, the word "upon" is not designating a temporal location, but rather it is a to designate the party against which you are demonstrating. You could be in Charlotte demonstrating against an "abortion clinic" located in Fayetteville, and if you were carrying, according to this statute, you would be guilty of a Class 1 Misdemeanor...

    You also need to check your understanding of the word "demonstrating". This is not limited to a large group of people carrying signs and shouting slogans. According to Mirriam-Webster's dictionary:
    Main Entry: dem·on·strate
    Pronunciation: ˈde-mən-ˌstrātFunction:
    verb
    Inflected Form(s): dem·on·strat·ed; dem·on·strat·ing
    Etymology: Latin demonstratus, past participle of demonstrare, from de- + monstrare to show — more at muster
    Date: 1548
    transitive verb

    1
    : to show clearly
    I think a large group of people wearing t-shirts and hats with anti-abortion designs on them is showing pretty clearly where you stand and why you are milling about outside such a facility.

    Now, IANAL, but I DO understand how the language works. If you think my interpretation is incorrect, I STRONGLY advice you seek professional legal counsel, or contact the NC AG for an "official" interpretation...

    Good luck with your "peaceable assemblies". But if you're going to carry at them, you're just BEGGING for legal trouble from about 12 different directions, and the LEAST of your worries is going to be an LEO.

    The "gray area" in this situation, is your intention for your "peaceable assembly". If you are there with the intention to make it know that you don't agree with someting that is going on in that facility, then whether you have signs or not, whether you are shouting or chanting or not, if you are congregating there with the INTENT of showing your disapproval, then you are "demonstrating".

    Check yourself before you wreck yourself, bro...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggressionand this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Dreamer wrote:
    So let me get this straight...

    You were just milling around, "peaceably assembling" with some friends outside a clinic that provides abortion services, but you weren't "protesting or demonstrating?

    So why were you there?

    To mow their grass? To sing "Koombaya"? Perhaps you were there to get some sort of perfectly legal ObGyn medical treatment? Or maybe you were waiting to be "safe passage escorts" for the staff and clients, and were OCing, so it would deter any potential nutjob from attacking them?

    OK, maybe I can understand why you might be carrying. There are some CRAZY people who hang around those sorts of medical facilities, just waiting to attack, main, injure, and even kill the staff and their clients in the name of "morals" and "the right to life"...

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5193168.shtml

    http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-4185521.html

    http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-902817.html

    http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/...-abortion.html

    No?

    Oh, I get it, you don't like the fact that there is a law you disagree with, and sometimes people avail themselves of an activity that you disagree with, and so you feel that by haning out around this facility, you can somehow impress upon these people that what they are doing is wrong, and through your rhetoric you can impress upon the community that this activity, which you disagree with but is perfectly legal, is somehow not acceptable?

    You mean you don't agree that people who are engaged in a legal activity should be left alone, and not harassed, intimidated, or otherwise made to feel threatened? Hmmmm...

    Think about that the next time a cop someone gets up in your face because he knows what you're doing is legal, but he doesn't like it.


    You may want to review the EXACT wording of the NC Statute:
    14‑277.2. Weapons at parades, etc., prohibited.
    (a) It shall be unlawful for any person participating in, affiliated with, or present as a spectator at any parade, funeral procession, picket line, or demonstration upon any private health care facility or upon any public place owned or under the control of the State or any of its political subdivisions to willfully or intentionally possess or have immediate access to any dangerous weapon. Violation of this subsection shall be a Class 1 misdemeanor. It shall be presumed that any rifle or gun carried on a rack in a pickup truck at a holiday parade or in a funeral procession does not violate the terms of this act.
    You will notice in the bolded passage (emphasis added) that it does NOT say it is unlawful to carry on the property of such a facility. It states it is illegal to carry while demonstrating upon such a facility. That word "upon" is where it gets tricky, and where you run afoul of the law if you were, in fact, part of this "peaceable assembly". In this statute, the word "upon" is not designating a temporal location, but rather it is a to designate the party against which you are demonstrating. You could be in Charlotte demonstrating against an "abortion clinic" located in Fayetteville, and if you were carrying, according to this statute, you would be guilty of a Class 1 Misdemeanor...

    Now, IANAL, but I DO understand how the language works. If you think my interpretation is incorrect, I STRONGLY advice you seek professional legal counsel, or contact the NC AG for an "official" interpretation...

    Good luck with your "peaceable assemblies. But if you're going to carry at them, you're just BEGGING for legal trouble from about 12 different directions, and the LEAST of your worries is going to be an LEO.

    Check yourself before you wreck yourself, bro...
    I don't have the time nor the desire to break down all of the foolishness in your post but I'm not there to intimidate or threaten anyone. Again, this is part of my lifestyle. I carry at the store, when I go walking, when I grocery shop etc.

    Are you implying that because something is legal it is right and because something is illegal it is wrong? Sounds that way and that doesn't dignify much of a response.

    I'm also not there because I disagree with a law. The law makes no difference to me I disagree with the act and our presence has saved babies. I notice you put "right to life" in quotes as if there is no such right. If you think that, you're pathetic.

    Feel free to bash away as much as you'd like the rest of the time on this thread. I won't be responding to any of your posts if they are focused on the right to life vs gun related issues. You can send me a pm if you want to dialogue about what you obviously must deem a "moral" choice.

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    I'm not going to engage you in an abortion debate. This is not the place for that. In fact, I'm NOT pro-abortion. I was adopted as an infant--if abortion had been legal in 1965, I probably would not be here.

    But I'm also not pro-vigilante, and I think that the sorts of people who shoot, bomb, and otherwise assault the medical personnel involved in this issue are dangerous, evil, and criminal. We HAVE a method for dealing with laws we don't agree with here in this country--it's called the Judiciary. Shooting people because you don't agree with them is wrong. I think we can all agree with that. I'm not accusing you of wanting to do that, but I think maybe you should understand what might have been going through that cop's mind when he saw you carrying at this "assembly".

    The point I'm making is that under NC statute, what you did WAS a violation, plain and simple. And post "Tiller", I think it's pretty reasonable for people to get a little twitchy when someone shows up at one of these "peaceable assemblies" carrying a firearm.

    I don't think your right to "peaceably assemble" should be abridged. If you want to hang out around business you disagree with, that is your right. But under NC law, you CAN NOT "willfully or intentionally possess, or have immediate access to any dangerous weapon" if you are demonstrating upon a health care facility, EVEN if you are not "on their property". The law is pretty clear and straightforward on that point. and the 1A right to peaceable assembly doesn't really even apply here--it is not about demonstrations on private property (and as you were not on the street, but in what looks like a parking lot, I assume it WAS somebody else's private property), or about disagreement with private businesses, it is about addressing the government for redress of grievances. Again, if you're going to be an activist, you REALLY ought to know the law a little better.

    Go ahead and "assemble" away, man. But you probably should leave your firearm at home when you do. After "Tiller", folks (and understandably, LEOs) get a little twitchy when someone shows up near an abortion facility with a gun. I think you can probably understand why.

    Have a little common sense...

    Yes, the cop DID handle this situation incorrectly. He was out of line, and he was probably acting like he did because he had, based on recent cases in other parts of the country, the reasonable suspicion that a person with a gun hanging out near an abortion clinic is probably NOT something to be taken lightly.

    He shouldn't have asked for a permit, or your ID, or what your age was or ANY of that nonsense. He was out of line, outside procedure, and his frustration and agitation with the situation was probably due partly because you made a DUMB call by carrying there and he thought he might possibly have some sort of "Scott Roeder" on his hands, and partly because, although he thought there might be some law against it, he didn't know the specific statute you were violating.

    He SHOULD have told you straight up that you were being charged with a Class 1 misdemeanor in violation of NC Statute 14-415.11(c). Then, he should have officially arrested you, disarmed you, asked for your ID, and then called for backup. At that point, if you had continued to be non-compliant, he could have easily slapped you with a Class 2 Misdemeanor of "Resisting Arrest". You are VERY lucky that this particular officer doesn't know the law very well...

    If you're going to be an activist, be it for 2A, 1A, or whatever, you need to be VERY well-versed in the laws that pertain to your activities. In this situation, you were not.

    Luckily for you, this officer didn't know the law either.

    Next time, you might not be so lucky...

    I mean, would you OC to a pro 2A rally in Washington DC? If you want to argue "right and wrong" vs. "legal vs illegal", that is a perfect example where discretion is the better part of valor. It is illegal to carry in DC. That law is wrong--I think we can all agree with the fact that the DC prohibition on OC is wrong, ethically, morally, and even Constitutionally. But I think any rational person would probably follow it, and leave their firearm at home when attending a rally in DC.

    The same thing applies here. Under NC law, it's illegal to carry at this sort of gathering. The entire reason y'all were there is to "assemble for a redress of grievances". You disagree with the morals and legality of the services being performed at this facility. And that is your right. But under NC statutes, if you ARE engaged in such a display, you ARE NOT permitted to posses a firearm during your activity. At least that's the way I read the law. But again, IANAL...

    Someone REALLY needs to get this statute interpretation cleared up with the NC AG, or qualified legal counsel. Honestly, I'm now very curious as to what the NC AG would say in instances such as this. I may have to make a phone call Monday...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggressionand this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  22. #22
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    I get a lot of where you are coming from now and I agree with more of your reasoning. Although I still disagree with you I understand your position.

    Your original post seemed, to me at least, to make a leap from me carrying a weapon to assuming I was doing so to enact violence. You posted several clips of abortion doctors being killed as to make a link between murdering someone and me carrying a gun.

    That would be like someone on this forum posting a bunch of links about convenience store murders in response to someone carrying in a convenience store. I'm sure you wouldn't argue that there are more abortion doctors killed then convenience store shootings. So does that mean that an officer is justified in assuming you are up to no good for carrying at a convenience store.

    Also, I was a good 60-70 ft away from where I started recording. The parking lot was that of a restaurant that has asked no one to leave so his trespassing accusation was bogus.

    I did not comply with any of his demands because I was not legally required to do so. There is no law that says I have to have an ID so him asking for one is an assumption that I have one.

    I would have identified myself with my name and the county I am residence of if he'd have asked. but he didn't and I'm not volunteering ANY information.

    If he assumed I was too young, that's a presumption of guilt not innocence (which is wrong). If he thought I was breaking the law, he should have arrested me, like you said, vs asking me questions UNLESS his questions were of an investigatory nature.

    If he's asking me questions because I'm being investigated for a crime, immediately my right to remain silence is invoked, which I would have without question used. I would not have resisted arrest. I would have complied and dealt with it in court.

    I would take my chances in court. They would have to prove that it was a demonstration and that I was there for the demonstration. The later would have been difficult on their part as I had no sign, no literature, and people walk by that area and talk to the people assembling on a regular basis.

    That is actually how I met the people assembled there. I was walking down the same street a few months back (OC'ing as I always do) saw people with signs and stopped to talk with them. That day I was walking because my car was right up the street getting serviced. So when I stopped to talk was I demonstrating then?

    Also, when you talk about upon any private health care facility I would take my chances with that too. "In this statute, the word "upon" is not designating a temporal location, but rather it is a to designate the party against which you are demonstrating. You could be in Charlotte demonstrating against an "abortion clinic" located in Fayetteville, and if you were carrying, according to this statute, you would be guilty"

    If that is the case they would have to prove I was demonstrating "against" the clinic, which I was most certainly not. I was standing "against" the act of abortion. I stand "against" things I feel are wrong no matter where I am. So am I demonstrating everywhere I go? If I were in Walmart and got into a conversation about abortion and took a stand "against" it and I was OC'ing am I demonstrating in violation of this statute?

    If upon means on the property then it is pretty cut and dry that I am good to go.

    I would also challenge the definition of health care facility. I think I would have a legal argument that they don't provide health care. I might not win that one but if Bill Clinton can debate the definition of "is" I should t least get to the state supreme court with this one. Even if they use the claim that some of their clients are murdering their unborn babies for health reasons, I would look into the percentage of that.

    Just like there has to be a certain amount of business that comes from alcohol for a place to be considered a bar, I would argue that you can't be considered a "heath care facility" when 1% of your practice is for the health of the mother.

    I think it would ultimately bring up the fact that the law is written poorly and is vague.

    WORST case scenario I would rely on jury nullification. Gaging from the comments on YouTube I think I would have a good chance of people saying this is a dumb statute.

    With all of the things they would have to prove that I would argue against and the fact that I would remain silent after being arrested (most peoples downfall is running their mouth). I think it would have been more difficult than they, and you, assume.

    How can you be so dogmatic that I was breaking this statute and I was lucky he didn't know it and then turn around and say "Someone REALLY needs to get this statute interpretation cleared up with the NC AG".

    The detective that came spent plenty of time looking through statutes. I'm sure the cop was looking too with all the time he spent on his cell phone and walkie talkie. I was there for about 45 minutes after this video ended. Plenty of time for them to look it up and arrest me if I was in violation.

    I'll be there next week to see if those people are assembled again and I'll gladly send you a message for your curiosity if anything of interest happens.

  23. #23
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    jp49911 wrote:
    It's more important and more courageous to contend for the rights of my neighbor than to only take a stand when injustice is on my doorstep.
    I'm fully supportive ofand agree with your actions related to this police encounter.Your quote above is key to understanding the correctness of what you did. It rings similar to a well-known quote that we all should bear in mind:

    First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
    Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.
    Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak outbecause I was not a trade unionist.
    Then they came for me
    and there was no one left
    to speak out for me.

    --Martin Niemöller

    I am pro-choice, but when they come for the pro-life folks (i.e., oppressing theirpeaceful exercise of their rights)I WILL speak outagainst (and lawfully video/audio document)such oppression.

    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Great! Another one of the 'trained' brown-shirt jack-booted government thug Gestapo wannabes who would make Hitler green with envy. Don't get me wrong, I love ALL of our armed forces (I'm a highly decorated Vietnam vet), the CIA, the DIA, the FBI and the NSA and others but, ALL local and state policing should be done by CITIZEN militias. This is precisely what happens when BIG governments are allowed to fester. ALL 'Public Employee Unions' must be dismantled. Our founding fathers warned us about BIG governmentS, Federal, state and LOCAL.

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    Great! Another one of the 'trained' brown-shirt jack-booted government thug Gestapo wannabes who would make Hitler green with envy. Don't get me wrong, I love ALL of our armed forces (I'm a highly decorated Vietnam vet), the CIA, the DIA, the FBI and the NSA and others but, ALL local and state policing should be done by CITIZEN militias. This is precisely what happens when BIG governments are allowed to fester. ALL 'Public Employee Unions' must be dismantled. Our founding fathers warned us about BIG governmentS, Federal, state and LOCAL.

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