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Thread: Body Armor & Carrying

  1. #1
    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I'm wondering if it's legal to wear a bullet resistant vest while carrying. I looked up the legality of the vests, and from the limited information I found, you are allowed to own one in Michigan if you are not a convicted felon. We all know that carrying a firearm is legal, so is it then legal to do both at the same time? I don't see why not, but I thought I'd get other opinions. Facts would be better than opinions though.
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    EM87 wrote:
    Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I'm wondering if it's legal to wear a bullet resistant vest while carrying. I looked up the legality of the vests, and from the limited information I found, you are allowed to own one in Michigan if you are not a convicted felon. We all know that carrying a firearm is legal, so is it then legal to do both at the same time? I don't see why not, but I thought I'd get other opinions. Facts would be better than opinions though.

    I know of no law against it. You are right about felons. There is also added punishment (Felony charge) if you wear one in the commission of a crime.

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    I keep toying with the idea of getting one just in case of police drawing on me. But of all the nasty police problems I've had, I've never been drawn on, and police trouble seems to be getting less and less common.

    It's not a bad idea, I guess I'm just too lazy and cheap to want to do it myself.
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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    Michigander wrote:
    I keep toying with the idea of getting one just in case of police drawing on me. But of all the nasty police problems I've had, I've never been drawn on, and police trouble seems to be getting less and less common.

    It's not a bad idea, I guess I'm just too lazy and cheap to want to do it myself.
    I own one already, actually. I got it for my part time armed security job (while in school) and I wear it often (at work). It's a concealable vest with level IIIA protection (up to .44 magnum hollowpoint) made of that cool ballistic fabric. The main reason I asked about the legality of it was because there was an extremely aggressive guy trying to start a fight with my neighbors at about 3am yesterday morning, and if he did anything stupid I may have had to intervene (after calling the police, of course - safety first!)

    You may be wondering why I asked about the legality if I do it already, but I didn't know if there was some kind of "works as armed security" clause somewhere.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    Regular Member JeffSayers's Avatar
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    Thanks for bringing up the topic EM. I was under the impression this type of thing was off-limits to citizens. Everywhere I had seen them advertised was "Le sale only". Not that I really have the money now but... can anyone plug someone who sells these?
    United we STAND!

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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    JeffSayers wrote:
    Thanks for bringing up the topic EM. I was under the impression this type of thing was off-limits to citizens. Everywhere I had seen them advertised was "Le sale only". Not that I really have the money now but... can anyone plug someone who sells these?
    I can't endorse a seller personally, but what I can tell you is that for a quality level IIIA vest (which is the maximum level of protection for concealable ballistic armor) you should expect to pay about $330. They can be found cheaper, but the quality isn't as good, I feel.

    This vest is very similar to what I have:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Security-Bullet-...ht_3217wt_1167

    I got mine new off ebay from Hagor Industries, a supplier for the Israeli army. I've heard good things about the vests made by this company. It was a little hard to find though, because Hagor was never mentioned. Instead the listings say, "Made by an official supplier for the Israeli army."

    This link has a lot of good information, including the protection levels of different types of vests.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_vest

    Hope someone finds this helpful!
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    JeffSayers wrote:
    . can anyone plug someone who sells these?
    http://bulletproofme.com/

    Never bought from them, but I've read reports of people who have, and I've never found anyone who had a bad experience with them.

    On the subject of vests, they sell cheap used kevlar vests solely to shoot at them. I had the chance to shoot one up when someone brought it to the range. It caused me to not like or trust kevlar vests, instead believing level 4 is the minimum armor that I'd want to use for any application.

    I'm not saying my opinion is the right one, just that it's how I feel. I encourage anyone who uses or is considering using kevlar to get a used vest and shoot it up to make sure you're comfortable with that system.
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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Michigander wrote:
    JeffSayers wrote:
    . can anyone plug someone who sells these?
    http://bulletproofme.com/

    Never bought from them, but I've read reports of people who have, and I've never found anyone who had a bad experience with them.

    On the subject of vests, they sell cheap used kevlar vests solely to shoot at them. I had the chance to shoot one up when someone brought it to the range. It caused me to not like or trust kevlar vests, instead believing level 4 is the minimum armor that I'd want to use for any application.

    I'm not saying my opinion is the right one, just that it's how I feel. I encourage anyone who uses or is considering using kevlar to get a used vest and shoot it up to make sure you're comfortable with that system.
    were you putting the vest over ballistic clay or even regular clay? If not it will not work as designed.

    See HERE http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm
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    when it comes down to it, would you rather have a vest on when getting shot or not have a vest on while getting shot.

    It doesn't hurt to have extra protection. Its up to the user to decide if he/she wants to put this one every day though. The best part of my day is taking this thing off!!
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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    jeremy05 wrote:
    when it comes down to it, would you rather have a vest on when getting shot or not have a vest on while getting shot.

    It doesn't hurt to have extra protection. Its up to the user to decide if he/she wants to put this one every day though. The best part of my day is taking this thing off!!
    Yeah they are Hot!! But I am with you any extra protection is a good thing.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    autosurgeon wrote:
    jeremy05 wrote:
    when it comes down to it, would you rather have a vest on when getting shot or not have a vest on while getting shot.

    It doesn't hurt to have extra protection. Its up to the user to decide if he/she wants to put this one every day though. The best part of my day is taking this thing off!!
    Yeah they are Hot!! But I am with you any extra protection is a good thing.
    Ive been thinking of buying that dragon skin just for the fact that its lighter and more flexible and not as hot, but that **** is way expensive!
    Freedom isn't free, but this is America! We will find a way to outsource it and save some money - Jeremy

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Yeah I saw that the other day... and was interested until I saw the price.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    autosurgeon wrote:No we were not. However, it did stop weak handgun rounds. It was seeing what a rifle or shotgun would do that convinced me that I'd want a plate vest. It was also equally unreassuring to see it get kicked around pretty hard by pistols.

    That clay beautifully shows why I think kevlar is a false sense of security. If you get shot by a substantial handgun round while wearing kevlar, it's like getting kicked in the chest really really hard. Could be incapacitating. And it's not like the attacker won't be shooting at you some more. But a rifle plate, at least by my estimations as someone who has been beat on while wearing a sparring vest, would spread the impact better, not to mention stop more substantial bullets.

    It's kind of like how I carry a .45 over something smaller. I believe in using the most effective tool for the job. Nothing against anyone who feels differently, just my opinions.
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    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
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    Michigander wrote:
    autosurgeon wrote:No we were not. However, it did stop weak handgun rounds. It was seeing what a rifle or shotgun would do that convinced me that I'd want a plate vest. It was also equally unreassuring to see it get kicked around pretty hard by pistols.

    That clay beautifully shows why I think kevlar is a false sense of security. If you get shot by a substantial handgun round while wearing kevlar, it's like getting kicked in the chest really really hard. Could be incapacitating. And it's not like the attacker won't be shooting at you some more. But a rifle plate, at least by my estimations as someone who has been beat on while wearing a sparring vest, would spread the impact better, not to mention stop more substantial bullets.

    It's kind of like how I carry a .45 over something smaller. I believe in using the most effective tool for the job. Nothing against anyone who feels differently, just my opinions.
    Well, that's the "side effect" of not having a bullet rip through you. All that energy has to dissipate somehow. The vest allows that energy to be distributed over a larger area. It'll hurt, it'll bruise you up, it'll knock the wind out of you, but you'll still be alive.
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    Michigander wrote:
    autosurgeon wrote:No we were not. However, it did stop weak handgun rounds. It was seeing what a rifle or shotgun would do that convinced me that I'd want a plate vest. It was also equally unreassuring to see it get kicked around pretty hard by pistols.

    That clay beautifully shows why I think kevlar is a false sense of security. If you get shot by a substantial handgun round while wearing kevlar, it's like getting kicked in the chest really really hard. Could be incapacitating. And it's not like the attacker won't be shooting at you some more. But a rifle plate, at least by my estimations as someone who has been beat on while wearing a sparring vest, would spread the impact better, not to mention stop more substantial bullets.

    It's kind of like how I carry a .45 over something smaller. I believe in using the most effective tool for the job. Nothing against anyone who feels differently, just my opinions.
    It can not hit you any harder than the recoil of the handgun. That's physics. They say it's like getting hit with a 90 mph fast ball. Talking handguns here, not anything larger.

    For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Venator wrote:
    Michigander wrote:
    autosurgeon wrote:No we were not. However, it did stop weak handgun rounds. It was seeing what a rifle or shotgun would do that convinced me that I'd want a plate vest. It was also equally unreassuring to see it get kicked around pretty hard by pistols.

    That clay beautifully shows why I think kevlar is a false sense of security. If you get shot by a substantial handgun round while wearing kevlar, it's like getting kicked in the chest really really hard. Could be incapacitating. And it's not like the attacker won't be shooting at you some more. But a rifle plate, at least by my estimations as someone who has been beat on while wearing a sparring vest, would spread the impact better, not to mention stop more substantial bullets.

    It's kind of like how I carry a .45 over something smaller. I believe in using the most effective tool for the job. Nothing against anyone who feels differently, just my opinions.
    It can not hit you any harder than the recoil of the handgun. That's physics. They say it's like getting hit with a 90 mph fast ball. Talking handguns here, not anything larger.

    For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
    Yep good ol physics!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    It hadn't even crossed my mind that you could possibly not be allowed to wear body armor. Sure, I can see someone could get the idea that if you are wearing body armor and carrying a gun you might be going to start some trouble, but of course we know that's not true at all. Is it actually illegal anywhere? How could they require a seatbelt for protection and outlaw a vest for protection? What's next... not allowed to wear sunblock? No hotpads when getting the roast out of the oven? Only outlaws can wear bike helmets?

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Venator wrote:
    It can not hit you any harder than the recoil of the handgun. That's physics. They say it's like getting hit with a 90 mph fast ball. Talking handguns here, not anything larger.

    For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
    Yes, very true about the laws of physics. But keep in mind that there are other ways the tremendous pressure from a cartridge ignition are dissipated.

    The bulk of the pressure that is expended blows itself off out the muzzle. A blast from a handgun pressed right up to a surface for example will really make a mess of things. Shotgun to the face suicide is the best example. In no way shape or form do you absorb that much energy when you shoot clays.

    The gas pressure is blown off out the barrel, and some of the recoil is absorbed by the action if we're talking about a semi automatic firearm. The shooter merely has to control the muzzle flip and recoil of what's left.
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    Venator wrote:
    Michigander wrote:
    autosurgeon wrote:No we were not. However, it did stop weak handgun rounds. It was seeing what a rifle or shotgun would do that convinced me that I'd want a plate vest. It was also equally unreassuring to see it get kicked around pretty hard by pistols.

    That clay beautifully shows why I think kevlar is a false sense of security. If you get shot by a substantial handgun round while wearing kevlar, it's like getting kicked in the chest really really hard. Could be incapacitating. And it's not like the attacker won't be shooting at you some more. But a rifle plate, at least by my estimations as someone who has been beat on while wearing a sparring vest, would spread the impact better, not to mention stop more substantial bullets.

    It's kind of like how I carry a .45 over something smaller. I believe in using the most effective tool for the job. Nothing against anyone who feels differently, just my opinions.
    It can not hit you any harder than the recoil of the handgun. That's physics. They say it's like getting hit with a 90 mph fast ball. Talking handguns here, not anything larger.

    For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
    .45 ACP exerts roughly 450 lb-ft of energy in that little 1/2" wide area at close range. That's not equal to the recoil.

    However, that IS equal to what you'd feel in the vest. However, vests are designed to spread that energy out.

    -Richard-

  20. #20
    Regular Member SlowDog's Avatar
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    As being someone who was shot while wearing a vest.I can tell you this. If I wasn't wearing it I'd be dead. I was hit 3 times from distance in the back with 7.62x39. All three rounds passed through vest but didn't go any further then rib cage. Slowed them down enough they stopped just inside ribs. And I actually don't recall any felt kenetic energy. It didn't hurt right away either. But after I was out of surgery I had what could only be discribed as a bruise that went from my right hip to top of shoulder...that friggin hurt more. I was stiff for over a month and couldn't be touched on it.....btw...a friend in my unit was hit with a .45 close range in the vest. Broke 3 ribs. So the theory of physics and felt recoil and kinetic energy recieved is something I have seen debunked with my own eyes......just sayin....
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    What kind of vest was it slowdog?

    With the Kevlar vest we shot up, x39 FMJ and HP went through it like a hot soldering iron through Tupperware. That was supposed to be the strongest possible kevlar vest on the market. So I'm guessing maybe it was something more substantial than stand alone kevlar?
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    Regular Member SlowDog's Avatar
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    I was what wearing was available in 1984-85. Like I said it was from a distance which helped greatly. It was kevlar. There wasn't anything else available to us at the time. They are hot to wear. Back then they were heavy too but you get used to wearing them. Also, I have heard reports from people I am still in contact with in the military....Dragon Skin failed the tests by the Army & Marines. Might need to check those facts but it is what I was told a while back and this person would know.I don't know if it was rifle or pistol rounds that defeated the Dragon Skin.
    Only two have offered their lives for you. A Soldier and Jesus....

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    With the distance, and perhaps a HP bullet that maybe wasn't even steel jacketed, I suppose that makes sense. It's a slower rifle round to begin with. Only about 2300 FPS.

    Any idea what kind of ammo you were hit with?

    About that dragon skin, I've always been skeptical of how it's made, because it seems that if you got a bullet between one of the plates, it would fail. No body armor is perfect as a head shot clearly proves, but I think I'd definitely prefer plate armor. I'm especially disgusted by dragon skin's policy of sales to police and military only. I'm not a practicing militia member, but this country was after all founded on the idea that the militia is the single most important aspect of security that could possibly exist. Restricted sales like that that aren't even based on some unconstitutional law are despicable and worthy of a boycott.
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    Regular Member SlowDog's Avatar
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    I was typical FMJ fodder found in the bannana republics of the time. I was talking with a CSM <Command Sergeant Major>friend of mine who just returned from duty and said that the wonderful world of CNN put out how our troops are wearing body armor and how only head shots and under arm shots would be of serious concern. Wanna guess where the insurgents started shooting our guys immediately after that? As far as I am concerned the Communist News Network should lose their license for putting our men & woman in such peril....just my opinion.....
    Only two have offered their lives for you. A Soldier and Jesus....

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Ok, so ....

    It's legal to carry AK underfolders and AR15 pistols.

    It's legal to wear body armor.

    It's legal to carry into police stations.



    :shock:

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