Body Armor & Carrying

Michigander · Oct 20, 2009

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What kind of vest was it slowdog?

With the Kevlar vest we shot up, x39 FMJ and HP went through it like a hot soldering iron through Tupperware. That was supposed to be the strongest possible kevlar vest on the market. So I'm guessing maybe it was something more substantial than stand alone kevlar?

SlowDog · Oct 20, 2009

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I was what wearing was available in 1984-85. Like I said it was from a distance which helped greatly. It was kevlar. There wasn't anything else available to us at the time. They are hot to wear. Back then they were heavy too but you get used to wearing them. Also, I have heard reports from people I am still in contact with in the military....Dragon Skin failed the tests by the Army & Marines. Might need to check those facts but it is what I was told a while back and this person would know.I don't know if it was rifle or pistol rounds that defeated the Dragon Skin.

Michigander · Oct 20, 2009

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With the distance, and perhaps a HP bullet that maybe wasn't even steel jacketed, I suppose that makes sense. It's a slower rifle round to begin with. Only about 2300 FPS.

Any idea what kind of ammo you were hit with?

About that dragon skin, I've always been skeptical of how it's made, because it seems that if you got a bullet between one of the plates, it would fail. No body armor is perfect as a head shot clearly proves, but I think I'd definitely prefer plate armor. I'm especially disgusted by dragon skin's policy of sales to police and military only. I'm not a practicing militia member, but this country was after all founded on the idea that the militia is the single most important aspect of security that could possibly exist. Restricted sales like that that aren't even based on some unconstitutional law are despicable and worthy of a boycott.

SlowDog · Oct 20, 2009

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I was typical FMJ fodder found in the bannana republics of the time. I was talking with a CSM <Command Sergeant Major>friend of mine who just returned from duty and said that the wonderful world of CNN put out how our troops are wearing body armor and how only head shots and under arm shots would be of serious concern. Wanna guess where the insurgents started shooting our guys immediately after that? As far as I am concerned the Communist News Network should lose their license for putting our men & woman in such peril....just my opinion.....

dougwg · Oct 20, 2009

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Ok, so ....

It's legal to carry AK underfolders and AR15 pistols.

It's legal to wear body armor.

It's legal to carry into police stations.

:shock:

EM87 · Oct 20, 2009

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dougwg wrote:

Ok, so ....

It's legal to carry AK underfolders and AR15 pistols.

It's legal to wear body armor.

It's legal to carry into police stations.

:shock:

But do all three at once and I'm sure you'd have a problem... heh.

jeremy05 · Oct 20, 2009

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Michigander wrote

About that dragon skin, I've always been skeptical of how it's made, because it seems that if you got a bullet between one of the plates, it would fail. No body armor is perfect as a head shot clearly proves, but I think I'd definitely prefer plate armor. I'm especially disgusted by dragon skin's policy of sales to police and military only. I'm not a practicing militia member, but this country was after all founded on the idea that the militia is the single most important aspect of security that could possibly exist. Restricted sales like that that aren't even based on some unconstitutional law are despicable and worthy of a boycott.

Dragon skin out performs all body armor in PRIVATE testing. Its not even in the same league as normal body armor. From what I hear is it did fail the military testing due to unknown BS reasons, such as the price. I dont know how true, nor from what I read the military will not say how it failed the tests or how it was tested.

What impressed me most with the dragon skin was its ablity to disperse the energy of a round through the vest and not take the blunt force of a round.

Venator · Oct 20, 2009

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SlowDog wrote:

As being someone who was shot while wearing a vest.I can tell you this. If I wasn't wearing it I'd be dead. I was hit 3 times from distance in the back with 7.62x39. All three rounds passed through vest but didn't go any further then rib cage. Slowed them down enough they stopped just inside ribs. And I actually don't recall any felt kenetic energy. It didn't hurt right away either. But after I was out of surgery I had what could only be discribed as a bruise that went from my right hip to top of shoulder...that friggin hurt more. I was stiff for over a month and couldn't be touched on it.....btw...a friend in my unit was hit with a .45 close range in the vest. Broke 3 ribs. So the theory of physics and felt recoil and kinetic energy recieved is something I have seen debunked with my own eyes......just sayin....

To para-phrase Scotty of Star Trek fame. Ya kin not change the laws of physics.

What is perceived by a person would vary so it's not a constant. What feels like a tap to one may feel like a jolt to someone else. The laws of physics mostly are constant, (although somemeasurements in space suggest that perhaps they can be variable), but generally here on earth they are as good as constant.

springerdave · Oct 20, 2009

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Michigander wrote:

Venator wrote:

It can not hit you any harder than the recoil of the handgun. That's physics. They say it's like getting hit with a 90 mph fast ball. Talking handguns here, not anything larger.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Click to expand...

Yes, very true about the laws of physics. But keep in mind that there are other ways the tremendous pressure from a cartridge ignition are dissipated.

The bulk of the pressure that is expended blows itself off out the muzzle. A blast from a handgun pressed right up to a surface for example will really make a mess of things. Shotgun to the face suicide is the best example. In no way shape or form do you absorb that much energy when you shoot clays.

The gas pressure is blown off out the barrel, and some of the recoil is absorbed by the action if we're talking about a semi automatic firearm. The shooter merely has to control the muzzle flip and recoil of what's left.

You must also factor the in the mass of the gun as it surly absorbs a portion of felt recoil.springerdave.

Evil Creamsicle · Oct 20, 2009

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Michigander wrote:

What kind of vest was it slowdog?

With the Kevlar vest we shot up, x39 FMJ and HP went through it like a hot soldering iron through Tupperware. That was supposed to be the strongest possible kevlar vest on the market. So I'm guessing maybe it was something more substantial than stand alone kevlar?

You also have to keep in mind that at that point the integrity of that vest was already compromised. The vest you were shooting at had already stopped a shotgun slug or two when the x39 rounds were fired at it, it was not a clean vest, and it had nothing but plywood for a backstop.

Jeremy05 said:

Dragon skin out performs all body armor in PRIVATE testing. Its not even in the same league as normal body armor. From what I hear is it did fail the military testing due to unknown BS reasons, such as the price. I dont know how true, nor from what I read the military will not say how it failed the tests or how it was tested.

Are you sure? I personally know someone who was in Iraq with Marine Recon, they said that, although the regular grunts get the Kevlar, that his unit and other specialized units like it were issued Dragon Skin. Although... I suppose he could have been one of the 'test subjects'. Anyway, he has been shot while wearing it and swears by the stuff.

Another friend was in Somalia, and was wearing Kevlar armor, when shot in the back by x39 three times, almost killed him. He got discharged after that. Although... he also mentioned that he thinks the armor was already 'used' when it was issued to him.

Just some things to think about.

Evil Creamsicle · Oct 20, 2009

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springerdave wrote:

Michigander wrote:

Venator wrote:

It can not hit you any harder than the recoil of the handgun. That's physics. They say it's like getting hit with a 90 mph fast ball. Talking handguns here, not anything larger.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Click to expand...

Yes, very true about the laws of physics. But keep in mind that there are other ways the tremendous pressure from a cartridge ignition are dissipated.

The bulk of the pressure that is expended blows itself off out the muzzle. A blast from a handgun pressed right up to a surface for example will really make a mess of things. Shotgun to the face suicide is the best example. In no way shape or form do you absorb that much energy when you shoot clays.

The gas pressure is blown off out the barrel, and some of the recoil is absorbed by the action if we're talking about a semi automatic firearm. The shooter merely has to control the muzzle flip and recoil of what's left.

You must also factor the in the mass of the gun as it surly absorbs a portion of felt recoil.springerdave.

Click to expand...

not only that, but the mass of the gun and the person holding it, plus the friction that person is provided by having their feet planted on the earth, whereas the same amount of force on the other end is propelling merely a few hundred grain projectile, with the only friction force being the drag of the barrel rifling, and after that, the air that it passes through.

Veritas · Oct 20, 2009

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SlowDog wrote:

As being someone who was shot while wearing a vest.I can tell you this. If I wasn't wearing it I'd be dead. I was hit 3 times from distance in the back with 7.62x39. All three rounds passed through vest but didn't go any further then rib cage. Slowed them down enough they stopped just inside ribs. And I actually don't recall any felt kenetic energy. It didn't hurt right away either. But after I was out of surgery I had what could only be discribed as a bruise that went from my right hip to top of shoulder...that friggin hurt more. I was stiff for over a month and couldn't be touched on it.....btw...a friend in my unit was hit with a .45 close range in the vest. Broke 3 ribs. So the theory of physics and felt recoil and kinetic energy recieved is something I have seen debunked with my own eyes......just sayin....

First, thank you to you and your friend for taking a bullet(s). Secondly, sorry to hear it. And third, thanks for sharing. I've always been curious about what it's like to be shot... but never asked anyone because it strikes me as being a pretty rude thing to do.

Veritas · Oct 20, 2009

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Evil Creamsicle wrote:

not only that, but the mass of the gun and the person holding it, plus the friction that person is provided by having their feet planted on the earth, whereas the same amount of force on the other end is propelling merely a few hundred grain projectile, with the only friction force being the drag of the barrel rifling, and after that, the air that it passes through.

I assume distance would play a role, too. Getting back to Newtons Law, an object in motion stays in motion unless stopped by another object. Wind resistance/air slows a bullet traveling a distance and lessons the blow.

Michigander · Oct 20, 2009

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Veritas wrote:

I've always been curious about what it's like to be shot... but never asked anyone because it strikes me as being a pretty rude thing to do.

Eh, not that rude.

In my experience, I felt nothing at first. I don't believe that was from adrenalin or shock, because I was calm and relaxed at that point. I think it was just that it happened so fast, and the bullet went through so cleanly, that my brain wasn't even able to interpret what had happened. I had to stop and check to see if I'd actually been hit. I froze, because I knew I could do serious damage if I had been hit. And indeed, I got hit right by my knee.

For the rest of the day, into the next morning when I went into surgery and got ****** up on dilauded, it felt like I had a C clamp compressed fairly tightly around my leg. The pain was about 2 out of 10, never more. The hardest thing in that particular situation was the nauseated swirl my brain was in after they pumped me full of drugs.

The worst part about survivable gun shot wounds is the months and months of recovery. But even with a more painful gun shot than the one I experienced, I've never found anyone who thought they hurt nearly as much as the short term effects of pepper spray, or worse, high voltage shocks.

Hope that helps.

Veritas · Oct 20, 2009

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Michigander wrote:

Veritas wrote:

I've always been curious about what it's like to be shot... but never asked anyone because it strikes me as being a pretty rude thing to do.

Click to expand...

Eh, not that rude.

In my experience, I felt nothing at first. I don't believe that was from adrenalin or shock, because I was calm and relaxed at that point. I think it was just that it happened so fast, and the bullet went through so cleanly, that my brain wasn't even able to interpret what had happened. I had to stop and check to see if I'd actually been hit. I froze, because I knew I could do serious damage if I had been hit. And indeed, I got hit right by my knee.

For the rest of the day, into the next morning when I went into surgery and got @#$%ed up on dilauded, it felt like I had a C clamp compressed fairly tightly around my leg. The pain was about 2 out of 10, never more. The hardest thing in that particular situation was the nauseated swirl my brain was in after they pumped me full of drugs.

The worst part about survivable gun shot wounds is the months and months of recovery. But even with a more painful gun shot than the one I experienced, I've never found anyone who thought they hurt nearly as much as the short term effects of pepper spray, or worse, high voltage shocks.

Hope that helps.

It helps, thanks.

SlowDog · Oct 20, 2009

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For quite a while I never talked about it. Now that a few decades have gone by it is almost like a dream.....sounds crazy but it is what it is. The first time I was hit I took a deflection into the throat.I was so stunned I didn't know or feel anything. I was laying on my back seeing red. Was my own blood. That one still bothers me today cuzz when I get a sore throat I tend to lose my voice. Like Michigander said...the recovery suxx....you forget and try to move or bump into it and you remember real quick!!

Venator · Oct 21, 2009

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Veritas wrote:

Evil Creamsicle wrote:

not only that, but the mass of the gun and the person holding it, plus the friction that person is provided by having their feet planted on the earth, whereas the same amount of force on the other end is propelling merely a few hundred grain projectile, with the only friction force being the drag of the barrel rifling, and after that, the air that it passes through.

Click to expand...

I assume distance would play a role, too. Getting back to Newtons Law, an object in motion stays in motion unless stopped by another object. Wind resistance/air slows a bullet traveling a distance and lessons the blow.

Don't forget about that pesky gravity.

Kimberguy · Oct 21, 2009

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jeremy05 wrote:

Michigander wrote

About that dragon skin, I've always been skeptical of how it's made, because it seems that if you got a bullet between one of the plates, it would fail. No body armor is perfect as a head shot clearly proves, but I think I'd definitely prefer plate armor. I'm especially disgusted by dragon skin's policy of sales to police and military only. I'm not a practicing militia member, but this country was after all founded on the idea that the militia is the single most important aspect of security that could possibly exist. Restricted sales like that that aren't even based on some unconstitutional law are despicable and worthy of a boycott.

Click to expand...

Dragon skin out performs all body armor in PRIVATE testing. Its not even in the same league as normal body armor. From what I hear is it did fail the military testing due to unknown BS reasons, such as the price. I dont know how true, nor from what I read the military will not say how it failed the tests or how it was tested.

What impressed me most with the dragon skin was its ablity to disperse the energy of a round through the vest and not take the blunt force of a round.

Dragon skin failed Army and Marine Testing due to extreme heat and extreme cold testing, it failed both. In extreme heat, whatever it was that held the disks together would soften, and allow the disks to become dislodged inside the vest. In extreme cold the same part became brittle having the same affects as extreme heat.

Body Armor & Carrying

Michigander

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SlowDog

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Michigander

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SlowDog

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dougwg

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EM87

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jeremy05

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Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter

springerdave

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Evil Creamsicle

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Evil Creamsicle

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Veritas

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Veritas

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Michigander

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Veritas

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SlowDog

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Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter

Kimberguy

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