Pledge of allegiance

imported post

This has nothing to do with guns, but I am posting it here anyway because I feel it is impotent.

My son just joined the cub scouts and at the beginning of every meeting they say the pledge of allegiance. I have three problems with it. The first is that I don't think that a seven year old should be Pledging to anything, he is just to young to truly understand what a pledge is even when it is explained to him. The second is " and to the Republic for which it stands", the republic for which it stands is a mockery of the republic of the Constitution(hiring a speed reader to read legislation that will destroy this country because they are to lazy to do there job is one example that pisses me off to no end). The third reason I don't think he should be reciting it is because it seems like it is just part of the indoctrination to believe the the government is good and infallible.

I plan to talk to the den leader at the next meeting to discuss my concerns over this. Does anyone else have the same thoughts about your children reciting the pledgeof allegiance? Or do you all think it is better just to go along to get along?

imported post

When will he be capable of understanding the Pledge or any pledge? Has he been Baptized/Confirmed and learned the Nicene Creed, I thought that BSA had to be christian? He will have to memorize the multiplication tables that adults don't understand and protest the necessity.

Perhaps the Pledge pledges allegiance to the Republic standing when the Pledge was conceived and to which I, anyway, would return? We get the government that we deserve and so will he.

Sheeple go along to get along. If the BSA isn't teaching age appropriate patriotism then it needs to be torn down and rebuilt. If the BSA isn't overtly christian then get him out!

imported post

Hillmann wrote:

This has nothing to do with guns, but I am posting it here anyway because I feel it is impotent.

My son just joined the cub scouts and at the beginning of every meeting they say the pledge of allegiance. I have three problems with it. The first is that I don't think that a seven year old should be Pledging to anything, he is just to young to truly understand what a pledge is even when it is explained to him. The second is " and to the Republic for which it stands", the republic for which it stands is a mockery of the republic of the Constitution(hiring a speed reader to read legislation that will destroy this country because they are to lazy to do there job is one example that pisses me off to no end). The third reason I don't think he should be reciting it is because it seems like it is just part of the indoctrination to believe the the government is good and infallible.

I plan to talk to the den leader at the next meeting to discuss my concerns over this. Does anyone else have the same thoughts about your children reciting the pledgeof allegiance? Or do you all think it is better just to go along to get along?

Click to expand...

Before every neighborhood meeting, we also recite the Pledge of Allegiance. I like it so much, I was going to bring up a small flag ceremony at next years highway cleanup. Not sure the rest would be interested, but I thought it would be cool.

This pledge is ours, not the governments. I do stand for America, and the Republic for witch the flag stands for (the idea of it). The fact that some in our government do not support the ideas that made America, have no bearing on this. I do not pledge anything to them, other then to keep an eye on them, and try to stop them from crushing the rights of "we, the people". The pledge is just my way of letting them know that my eyes are on them, and that if needed, that I will defend our rights.

Sit your kid down, and talk to him about how you feel about this. I bet he is smarter then you think. I bet he understands once he has a good talking to.

imported post

Doug Huffman wrote:

Perhaps the Pledge pledges allegiance to the Republic standing when the Pledge was conceived and to which I, anyway, would return? We get the government that we deserve and so will he.

Click to expand...

I dissagree.

After posting I looked it up on the net and the more I read the more I dislike the Pledge.

imported post

Hillman. Is your son baptized? confirmed? Has he been indoctrinated into a religion before he understands what baptism is? What christianity is all about? Has his religion been determined for him by adults or is he free to choose the one he prefers? has he been confirmed and had his religious beliefs dedicated to a specific form of religion before he really understands the options? Is he in cub scouts because he wants to be in cub scouts and understands what scouting is all about or is he in cub scouts because his parents think it is a good thing for him. Now before you shout "but that's different" and jump all over me think a while. It isn't all that different from your statement that he shouldn't have to recite the pledge of allegiance because he isn't old enough to understand what it means. He should be allowed to recite it and if he finds it not to his liking decide not to recite it. He shouldnot refuse to recite it because his dad doesn't like it. Unfortunately we adults do not give children enough credit for having intelligence and powers of reason of their own, instead we too often try to mold them into effigies of our philosophy and ideologies.

imported post

So because the Nazis used our original flag salute for their generic salute, that puts the Pledge in the wrong? Much the same way that the swastica, a symbol older than many Egyptian symbols and with a generically good connotation, was turned into the universal symbol of hate and racism.

imported post

Doug Huffman wrote:

When will he be capable of understanding the Pledge or any pledge?  Has he been Baptized/Confirmed and learned the Nicene Creed, I thought that BSA had to be christian?  He will have to memorize the multiplication tables that adults don't understand and protest the necessity.

Perhaps the Pledge pledges allegiance to the Republic standing when the Pledge was conceived and to which I, anyway, would return?  We get the government that we deserve and so will he.

Sheeple go along to get along.  If the BSA isn't teaching age appropriate patriotism then it needs to be torn down and rebuilt.   If the BSA isn't overtly christian then get him out!

Click to expand...

Well said. My thoughts too.

imported post

The Pledge is just a set of ideas.

They can be twisted, undermined, used for thought control.

Heh, heh, heh. But, being that it is just ideas, you can steal it back.

Its just a matter of educating your son to really understandit.


[align=left]Too bad for the thought-controllers, if any,if they forgot to define which republic they meant--the one guaranteed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, or some socialist construct.[/align]
[align=left]The ideas of good citizenship taught in Scouting can always be corrupted, just like any other good idea. But since it is just an idea, it is easy to uncorrupt it. This is why nasty suppressive government always seizes control of the press and media. Because its too easy to uncorrupt their ideas.[/align]
[align=left]We can easily redefine the Pledge to embody all that is good, virtuous, and right about this great country no matter what anybody tries to do with it.[/align]
[align=left]Spend some time with your son on the various points in the Pledge. Also, comedian Red Skelton did a video piece on it. Its available on the web.[/align]
[align=left]--Eagle Scout[/align]

[align=left][/align]

imported post

Lammie wrote:

Hillman. Is your son baptized? confirmed?

Click to expand...

No for the very reason that I feel it is something he should choose

Click to expand...

Has he been indoctrinated into a religion before he understands what baptism is? What christianity is all about? Has his religion been determined for him by adults or is he free to choose the one he prefers? has he been confirmed and had his religious beliefs dedicated to a specific form of religion before he really understands the options?

Click to expand...

If he has questions about religen I answer them as best I can. I am a christian but do not attend church regulary.

Click to expand...

Is he in cub scouts because he wants to be in cub scouts and understands what scouting is all about or is he in cub scouts because his parents think it is a good thing for him.

Click to expand...

He asked if he could join cub scouts and I let him

Click to expand...

Now before you shout "but that's different" and jump all over me think a while. It isn't all that different from your statement that he shouldn't have to recite the pledge of allegiance because he isn't old enough to understand what it means. He should be allowed to recite it and if he finds it not to his liking decide not to recite it. He shouldnot refuse to recite it because his dad doesn't like it. Unfortunately we adults do not give children enough credit for having intelligence and powers of reason of their own, instead we too often try to mold them into effigies of our philosophy and ideologies.

Click to expand...

imported post

Agent1187 wrote:

So because the Nazis used our original flag salute for their generic salute, that puts the Pledge in the wrong? Much the same way that the swastica, a symbol older than many Egyptian symbols and with a generically good connotation, was turned into the universal symbol of hate and racism.

Click to expand...

Yes the picture I posted was inappropriate but do a search for arguments against the pledge and you will see its socialist origins.

imported post

Don't let your mind be so open that your brains (can) fall out. That's one of the good - off label - uses of a tin foil hat, plugging up the too open mind.

imported post

Easy, pull your kids from scouts. As a Cubmaster I would not want your influence in my pack anyway.

I can go on the web and download crap about everything.

Jesus had sex with a whore.

Do I believe that? No.
Is it out there? Yes.

Please, I like the above open brain comment.

imported post

The Pledge of Allegiance was written by Francis Julius Bellamy, a known Christian socialist, hence the term "indivisible".

imported post

BSA does not require adherence to Christianity. They promote faith, in a non-denominational fashion.

http://www.scouting.org/Visitor/WhyScouting/FaithTraditions.aspx

Let's not get too off-track here.

imported post

They now promote faith, in a non-denominational fashion.

Why I am a conservative. I like the old values.

In re indivisible; I remember the United States of America.

imported post

We should remember not that we are united, but whatwe areunited by; our constitution,our federal government?Depending on the answer, there arepotentialbenefitsto being divisible.

imported post

I am an Eagle Scout, and a father of two Cub Scouts. I feel that the Pledge of Allegiance is, among other things, a way to help instill some of the core ideals and values of our country into the lives of our young people so that when they grow up to adulthood they can better understand their role as citizens, as well as their responsibility to be involved in keeping our country free. It helps them to feel that our country was, is, and can continue to be a great nation. Not to do so would result, I feel, in future generations taking their liberties for granted, or worse, to not value them at all and to give them away for the false promise of convenience and security.

Do you teach your boy to be safe around firearms? I hope all would do so, because we know that activelyinstillinggun safetyintothem prevents many unfortunate deaths. Likewise, I feel that to drill a sense of citizenship and belonging into our young people's liveswill helpto keep them safe from those who would lead them very gently down a path to oppression.

It frustrates me to see that so many people throughout the world automatically equate our federal government with our country and our flag. Pledging allegiance to the flag, a symbol of our freedoms and values, is not the same as pledging fealty to a central government.

To me, my country is a combination of the people, the land, our freedoms, our way of life, our diverse ideologies, and our laws. Personally, I feel that the federal government is failing in many ways in it's responsibility to help preserve our freedoms, but that doesn't diminish my love for my country. Pledging allegiance to our flag helps motivate me to do what I can to fix what falls short.

This country was great, andI feel itessentially still is. It can continue to be so tomorrow and, well, forever, IF we pass on the values and ideals that we love on to our kids. If we fail to do this, then the country's days are definitely numbered, and it will crumble from the inside.

-- Michael

imported post

Doug Huffman wrote:

They now promote faith, in a non-denominational fashion.

Why I am a conservative. I like the old values.

In re indivisible; I remember the United States of America.

Click to expand...

62% BSA chartered units are sponsored by churches. One listed church is LDS.

imported post

warthog wrote:

Pledging allegiance to the flag, a symbol of our freedoms and values, is not the same as pledging fealty to a central government.

Click to expand...

it also says,"and to the republic, for which it stands"

That repulic that you are pledging your allegiance to is the same republic that is the reason that we have a federal debt of $38,000 per person in the US and shows no sign of stopping. The same republic that want's to pass a 10 trillion health care bill but is to lazy to read it so they hire a speed reader to tell them what is in it. The same republic that want's to pass cap and trade legleslation to fight global warming yet at the same time ordered almost a dozen new airliners for their personal field trips(fact finding). The same republic which violates the constitituion every chance it gets.

imported post

8 years ago, I swore an oath to defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic. Swearing and pledging is one and the same. Would you have a 7 year old swear the same oath I did?

I would keep him in the Scouts, but let him know that he does not have to say the Pledge. I am still uncomfortable saying the Pledge during baseball games, etc. I too do not differentiate from the "flag" and our "government." One represents the other.

Give the Scout leader a heads up that you don't want your son pledging anything just yet. And if he gives you grief, pull your kid. You don't need someone else telling you how to raise your kids. But I'm with you Hillman.