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Thread: National Forest/National Park differences?

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    http://www.innvirginia.com/listings/...-virginia.html

    I am thinking of spending a weekend there, if'n they are accomodating towards gun carryin' folk. As you can see though, to even get to the place you have to drive (very briefly) through a national forest:

    http://maps.google.com/maps?q=191+Chinquapin+Drive+Waynesboro,+Virginia+2 2980&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=Chinquapin+Dr,+Sherando,+VA+22 952&gl=us&ei=b5HeSoaDMcfR8QaY67Rk&sa=X &oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1&a mp;ved=0CAwQ8gEwAA

    I am thinking that should my girlfriend and I end up doing any of their hike/lunch activities we'd more than likely end up in the Jefferson National Forest.

    I doubt very seriously we would even encounter anyone of LE authority to question the legality of it... but it's nice to be within the law and have your bases covered. :P

    I recall reading that carry is okay in national forests but is not in national parks for the moment. A quick google search shows that I am more than likely correct in my recollection. Can anyone shed some light on it?

    Also, this is a long shot, has anyone been to the Iris Inn Bed & Breakfast in Waynesboro while carrying?

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    Concealed carry w/ CHP is the only way to carry a firearm loaded (excluding hunting) in a national forest. No open carry.

    National parks is no carry period, open or concealed.

    ____

    As for driving "through" the forest, I don't know if the road itself is considered the forest, or if the boundaries begin at the edge of the shoulder of the road. I would think that as long as you aren't on a "forest road" you should be OK as long as you're following VA law. I'm not a lawyer, this is just my opinion.

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    nova wrote:
    Concealed carry w/ CHP is the only way to carry a firearm loaded (excluding hunting) in a national forest. No open carry.
    That's not quite true. During hunting season (Most of fall and winter) OC is fine. Get a National Forest stamp and you're OK.

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    nova wrote:
    National parks is no carry period, open or concealed.
    Thanks to Senator Coburn (R-OK), the amendment on H.R. 627 will lift the NPS ban in 4 months (Feb. 2010) so that carry in *most* National Parks will be okay (so long as state law doesn't restrict it, like visiting the Statue of Liberty in NYC.)

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    peter nap wrote:
    nova wrote:
    Concealed carry w/ CHP is the only way to carry a firearm loaded (excluding hunting) in a national forest. No open carry.
    That's not quite true. During hunting season (Most of fall and winter) OC is fine. Get a National Forest stamp and you're OK.
    Notice I said "excluding hunting".

    I consider getting a special forest stamp being related to hunting.

    In other words you can't simply enter the national forest while OCing like you can CC w/ permit.

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    I don't mean to threadjack, but is OC allowed at Bull Run Regional Park? I'm planning on going hiking there this weekend. I read online that you can only possess a firearm in a Northern Virginia Regional Park if it is dismantled or contained in a closed case (unless you are at the range obviously).

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    hunter45 wrote:
    I don't mean to threadjack, but is OC allowed at Bull Run Regional Park? I'm planning on going hiking there this weekend. I read online that you can only possess a firearm in a Northern Virginia Regional Park if it is dismantled or contained in a closed case (unless you are at the range obviously).
    where online did you read that? I've OC'd at Occoquan Regional Park right past an FCPD officer sitting in his unmarked crown vic, he actually drove off before I made it to my truck so apparently he didn't care (which is good )

    Also I've OC'd at Fountainhead Regional Park with no issues.

    Regional parks are jointly operated by a few NoVA counties so they can't legally prohibit lawful carry of firearms, just like Fairfax County parks, or Fairfax City parks, cannot either.

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    nova wrote:
    Concealed carry w/ CHP is the only way to carry a firearm loaded (excluding hunting) in a national forest. No open carry.
    Cite?

    The U.S. Forest Service assimilates state law, so carrying in a national forest is the same as carrying elsewhere in Virginia. Does Virginia a law requiring concealed carry with CHP in forests?

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    nova wrote:
    hunter45 wrote:
    I don't mean to threadjack, but is OC allowed at Bull Run Regional Park? I'm planning on going hiking there this weekend. I read online that you can only possess a firearm in a Northern Virginia Regional Park if it is dismantled or contained in a closed case (unless you are at the range obviously).
    where online did you read that? I've OC'd at Occoquan Regional Park right past an FCPD officer sitting in his unmarked crown vic, he actually drove off before I made it to my truck so apparently he didn't care (which is good )

    Also I've OC'd at Fountainhead Regional Park with no issues.

    Regional parks are jointly operated by a few NoVA counties so they can't legally prohibit lawful carry of firearms, just like Fairfax County parks, or Fairfax City parks, cannot either.
    I read it here http://george.loper.org/archives/2002/Oct/092.html . But that is from 2002.

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    KBCraig wrote:
    nova wrote:
    Concealed carry w/ CHP is the only way to carry a firearm loaded (excluding hunting) in a national forest. No open carry.
    Cite?

    The U.S. Forest Service assimilates state law, so carrying in a national forest is the same as carrying elsewhere in Virginia. Does Virginia a law requiring concealed carry with CHP in forests?
    It's what I've been told over and over on this site.

    And it says it right here on the national forest site:

    http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/mnf/general_...20NF_Lands.pdf




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    hunter45 wrote:
    nova wrote:
    hunter45 wrote:
    I don't mean to threadjack, but is OC allowed at Bull Run Regional Park? I'm planning on going hiking there this weekend. I read online that you can only possess a firearm in a Northern Virginia Regional Park if it is dismantled or contained in a closed case (unless you are at the range obviously).
    where online did you read that? I've OC'd at Occoquan Regional Park right past an FCPD officer sitting in his unmarked crown vic, he actually drove off before I made it to my truck so apparently he didn't care (which is good )

    Also I've OC'd at Fountainhead Regional Park with no issues.

    Regional parks are jointly operated by a few NoVA counties so they can't legally prohibit lawful carry of firearms, just like Fairfax County parks, or Fairfax City parks, cannot either.
    I read it here http://george.loper.org/archives/2002/Oct/092.html . But that is from 2002.
    Preemption in 2004 got rid of all the grandfathered bun bans. That was around the same time Fairfax County was forced to drop their waiting period for handguns I believe.

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    nova wrote:
    KBCraig wrote:
    nova wrote:
    Concealed carry w/ CHP is the only way to carry a firearm loaded (excluding hunting) in a national forest. No open carry.
    Cite?

    The U.S. Forest Service assimilates state law, so carrying in a national forest is the same as carrying elsewhere in Virginia. Does Virginia a law requiring concealed carry with CHP in forests?
    It's what I've been told over and over on this site.

    And it says it right here on the national forest site:

    http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/mnf/general_...20NF_Lands.pdf
    That's only talking about hunting.

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    KBCraig wrote:
    nova wrote:
    KBCraig wrote:
    nova wrote:
    Concealed carry w/ CHP is the only way to carry a firearm loaded (excluding hunting) in a national forest. No open carry.
    Cite?

    The U.S. Forest Service assimilates state law, so carrying in a national forest is the same as carrying elsewhere in Virginia. Does Virginia a law requiring concealed carry with CHP in forests?
    It's what I've been told over and over on this site.

    And it says it right here on the national forest site:

    http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/mnf/general_...20NF_Lands.pdf
    That's only talking about hunting.
    I don't think it is, it only says "in order to allow for hunting..." it does not say 'exemption for hunting'.

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    It's apparently legal to open carry in Gifford Pinchot National Forest:

    It is legal to openly carry a firearm in most areas of most National Forests. It can be an issue if a weapon is carried in a concealed manner in which case the wearer/owner needs to have a legitimate concealed weapon permit for that privilege. It is important you know what is the requirement for the area you are using since any one of the circumstances noted above may apply.
    The folks at Tonto National Forest also seem to think there's no federal restriction on carrying firearms in National Forests:

    The possession and unconcealed carry of a firearm on the national forest is not restricted by federal law or Forest Service regulations with the exception of “prohibited possessors,” such as convicted felons (see 18 USC 922g (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...Cite:+18USC922) and ARS 13-3101 (http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument....mp;DocType=ARS) ). State laws regarding the concealed carry of firearms and the carrying of weapons within or on a motor vehicle apply to all National Forest System lands.
    Likewise, the Bighorn National Forest web site says that it's okay to carry a gun there, with no specific mention of open or concealed carry:

    May I carry a gun on national forest land?

    Yes, you may. The laws and regulations concerning firearms for Wyoming also apply on national forest land. Please note these exceptions:

    * Fireworks and explosives are prohibited in the National Forests.

    * Firing a gun is not allowed: in or within 150 yards of a residence, building; campsite, developed recreation site, or occupied area; across or on a road or body of water; in any circumstance whereby any person may be injured or property damaged.
    I could go on, but you get the picture. I've never heard it stated anywhere that open carry is prohibited in National Forests, other than your claims, Dave. There's certainly no citation I've ever seen or can find myself that supports your position, but as you can see, I can provide multiple cites that say that it's okay.

    So Dave, please provide a cite for your position, or stop making the claim. It sounds like you're talking about Virginia State Parks, but as far as I can tell, there's no federal restriction on open carrying in National Forests, and no distinction in federal law or regulation between concealed and open carry.

    Sorry to sound harsh, but you've repeated this claim several times without supporting it with a citation, and I'm pretty sure you're incorrect.

    ~ Boyd

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    nova wrote:
    hunter45 wrote:
    nova wrote:
    hunter45 wrote:
    I don't mean to threadjack, but is OC allowed at Bull Run Regional Park? I'm planning on going hiking there this weekend. I read online that you can only possess a firearm in a Northern Virginia Regional Park if it is dismantled or contained in a closed case (unless you are at the range obviously).
    where online did you read that? I've OC'd at Occoquan Regional Park right past an FCPD officer sitting in his unmarked crown vic, he actually drove off before I made it to my truck so apparently he didn't care (which is good )

    Also I've OC'd at Fountainhead Regional Park with no issues.

    Regional parks are jointly operated by a few NoVA counties so they can't legally prohibit lawful carry of firearms, just like Fairfax County parks, or Fairfax City parks, cannot either.
    I read it here http://george.loper.org/archives/2002/Oct/092.html . But that is from 2002.
    Preemption in 2004 got rid of all the grandfathered bun bans. That was around the same time Fairfax County was forced to drop their waiting period for handguns I believe.
    Why in the world would they want to ban buns?

    :what:

    We're certainly looking forward to February around here, though!!!

    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    The possession and unconcealed carry of a firearm on the national forest is not restricted by federal law or Forest Service regulations with the exception of “prohibited possessors,” such as convicted felons (see 18 USC 922g and ARS 13-3101).

    State laws regarding the concealed carry of firearms and the carrying of weapons within or on a motor vehicle apply to all National Forest System lands.

    http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/tonto/LawEnf...Qs/index.shtml

    National Parks, February, amen to that, brother! I can't wait to be able to drive on the GW Parkway and not be considered a felon.

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    KBCraig wrote:
    nova wrote:
    Concealed carry w/ CHP is the only way to carry a firearm loaded (excluding hunting) in a national forest. No open carry.
    Cite?

    The U.S. Forest Service assimilates state law, so carrying in a national forest is the same as carrying elsewhere in Virginia. Does Virginia a law requiring concealed carry with CHP in forests?
    Virginia law leaves carry rules for Natl. Forests to the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries (DGIF). DGIF rulesprohibit carry exceptcc with permit.

    http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/hunting...ationalforests

    Regulations Specific to National Forest and Game Department Lands
    It shall be unlawful to have in possession a bow, crossbow, or any firearm which is not unloaded and cased or dismantled on all National Forest lands statewide, or on Department-owned lands and on lands managed by the Department under cooperative agreement in counties west of the Blue Ridge Mountains except during the period when it is lawful to take bear, deer, grouse, pheasant, quail, rabbit, raccoon, squirrel, turkey or waterfowl on these lands; and on Department-owned lands and on lands managed by the Department under cooperative agreement in counties east of the Blue Ridge Mountains except during the period when it is lawful to take bear, deer, grouse, pheasant, quail, rabbit, raccoon, squirrel, turkey, waterfowl or migratory game birds on these lands. (See exception for valid concealed handgun permit holders.)

    It shall be unlawful to possess or transport a loaded firearm in or on any vehicle at any time on National Forest lands or Department-owned lands. (See exception for valid concealed handgun permit holders.)

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    KBCraig wrote:
    nova wrote:
    Concealed carry w/ CHP is the only way to carry a firearm loaded (excluding hunting) in a national forest. No open carry.
    Cite?

    The U.S. Forest Service assimilates state law, so carrying in a national forest is the same as carrying elsewhere in Virginia. Does Virginia a law requiring concealed carry with CHP in forests?
    Virginia law leaves carry rules for Natl. Forests to the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries (DGIF). DGIF rulesprohibit carry exceptcc with permit.

    http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/hunting...ationalforests

    Regulations Specific to National Forest and Game Department Lands
    It shall be unlawful to have in possession a bow, crossbow, or any firearm which is not unloaded and cased or dismantled on all National Forest lands statewide, or on Department-owned lands and on lands managed by the Department under cooperative agreement in counties west of the Blue Ridge Mountains except during the period when it is lawful to take bear, deer, grouse, pheasant, quail, rabbit, raccoon, squirrel, turkey or waterfowl on these lands; and on Department-owned lands and on lands managed by the Department under cooperative agreement in counties east of the Blue Ridge Mountains except during the period when it is lawful to take bear, deer, grouse, pheasant, quail, rabbit, raccoon, squirrel, turkey, waterfowl or migratory game birds on these lands. (See exception for valid concealed handgun permit holders.)

    It shall be unlawful to possess or transport a loaded firearm in or on any vehicle at any time on National Forest lands or Department-owned lands. (See exception for valid concealed handgun permit holders.)
    Thanks for the cite...I knew I wasn't crazy!

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    Thanks for the citation, Tomahawk. I didn't think Dave was crazy, either, but yours is the first cite I've seen over several discussions of the topic.

    Into the bookmark folder it goes!

    ~ Boyd

    P.S. And sorry for being so hard on you, Dave, but you know how important citations are 'round these parts!

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    Thanks for the helpful info guys.

    -Curtis

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    TexasNative wrote:

    P.S. And sorry for being so hard on you, Dave, but you know how important citations are 'round these parts!
    It would take a lot more than that to hurt my feelings, so it's no problem. And for how much I jump on people to follow the forum rules for citation, it's only fair that people keep me on track as well.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    Virginia law leaves carry rules for Natl. Forests to the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries (DGIF). DGIF rules*prohibit carry except*cc with permit.
    This jogs my memory now... I've OC'd at Burke Lake Park, but went to CC when my wife, daughter and I took the rowboat out on the lake.

    If my memory serves me correct, Burke Lake Park is a FFX Co. Park and the lake is under the purview of the DGIF.

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    NoVA York wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    Virginia law leaves carry rules for Natl. Forests to the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries (DGIF). DGIF rulesprohibit carry exceptcc with permit.
    This jogs my memory now... I've OC'd at Burke Lake Park, but went to CC when my wife, daughter and I took the rowboat out on the lake.

    If my memory serves me correct, Burke Lake Park is a FFX Co. Park and the lake is under the purview of the DGIF.
    correct. Burke Lake Park is FFX Co,
    From their site:

    The Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries owns the lake, 50 ft. wide perimeter of the shoreline, and the Fish and Game Parking lot.

    As part of an agreement, the FCPA and Burke Lake Park are designated stewards of the lake.

    ETA: I've OC'd in a few of the facilities in front of park employees, FCPD, as well as DGIF Conservation Officers with no problems.

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    Virginia law leaves carry rules for Natl. Forests to the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries (DGIF). DGIF rulesprohibit carry exceptcc with permit.

    http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/hunting...ationalforests
    Very informative thread !

    Thanks to Tomahawk for the cite ... but now, I'm confused :?.

    I thought VA's preemption eliminated these sorts of "patchwork quilt" restrictions (and legal minefields) within our state?

    It was the DGIF site 2nd paragraph which really caught my attention:
    It shall be unlawful to possess or transport a loaded firearm in or on any vehicle at any time on National Forest lands or Department-owned lands. (see exception for CHP holders)
    Does preemption only apply to agencies/counties/municipalities below the "state level" ... and state agencies still have the authority to restrict ???



  25. #25
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    Just talkin' out my butt because I don't know for sure, but I think the answer to your point is somewhat in dispute. I seem to recall that our most recent Attorney General (McDonnell) issued an opinion that the Department of Conservation and Recreation has no authority to prohibit the open carrying of firearms in State Parks. I would think that the same reasoning would apply to the Department of Inland Game and Fisheries as well, but that's not a given.

    Ah, here's (PDF) the AG opinion on the State Parks question. Regardless of all that, though, one would need to be willing to be the "test case" to open carry in State Parks or National Forests because the prohibitions are still in place.

    ~ Boyd

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