National Forest/National Park differences?

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TexasNative wrote:

P.S. And sorry for being so hard on you, Dave, but you know how important citations are 'round these parts!

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It would take a lot more than that to hurt my feelings, so it's no problem. And for how much I jump on people to follow the forum rules for citation, it's only fair that people keep me on track as well.

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Tomahawk wrote:

Virginia law leaves carry rules for Natl. Forests to the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries (DGIF). DGIF rules prohibit carry except cc with permit.

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This jogs my memory now... I've OC'd at Burke Lake Park, but went to CC when my wife, daughter and I took the rowboat out on the lake.

If my memory serves me correct, Burke Lake Park is a FFX Co. Park and the lake is under the purview of the DGIF.

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NoVA York wrote:

Tomahawk wrote:

Virginia law leaves carry rules for Natl. Forests to the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries (DGIF). DGIF rulesprohibit carry exceptcc with permit.

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This jogs my memory now... I've OC'd at Burke Lake Park, but went to CC when my wife, daughter and I took the rowboat out on the lake.

If my memory serves me correct, Burke Lake Park is a FFX Co. Park and the lake is under the purview of the DGIF.

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correct. Burke Lake Park is FFX Co,
From their site:

The Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries owns the lake, 50 ft. wide perimeter of the shoreline, and the Fish and Game Parking lot.

As part of an agreement, the FCPA and Burke Lake Park are designated stewards of the lake.

ETA: I've OC'd in a few of the facilities in front of park employees, FCPD, as well as DGIF Conservation Officers with no problems.

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Virginia law leaves carry rules for Natl. Forests to the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries (DGIF). DGIF rulesprohibit carry exceptcc with permit.

http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/hunting/regulations/publiclands.asp#nationalforests

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Very informative thread !

Thanks to Tomahawk for the cite ... but now, I'm confused :?.

I thought VA's preemption eliminated these sorts of "patchwork quilt" restrictions (and legal minefields) within our state?

It was the DGIF site 2nd paragraph which really caught my attention:

It shall be unlawful to possess or transport a loaded firearm in or on any vehicle at any time on National Forest lands or Department-owned lands. (see exception for CHP holders)

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Does preemption only apply to agencies/counties/municipalities below the "state level" ... and state agencies still have the authority to restrict ???

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Just talkin' out my butt because I don't know for sure, but I think the answer to your point is somewhat in dispute. I seem to recall that our most recent Attorney General (McDonnell) issued an opinion that the Department of Conservation and Recreation has no authority to prohibit the open carrying of firearms in State Parks. I would think that the same reasoning would apply to the Department of Inland Game and Fisheries as well, but that's not a given.

Ah, here's (PDF) the AG opinion on the State Parks question. Regardless of all that, though, one would need to be willing to be the "test case" to open carry in State Parks or National Forests because the prohibitions are still in place.

~ Boyd

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Thanks for the reply and the McDonnell opinion (which provides it's own wealth of citations)

Three passages seem particularly germane to this "DGIF Question":

A person’s right to carry a firearm openly is considered universal within the Commonwealth, subject to definite and limited restrictions upon certain locations and classifications of individuals.

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There is no basis for an agency regulation where the legislature plainly, broadly, and comprehensively has addressed the same object.

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and

It is within the sole discretion of the General Assembly to limit the carrying of firearms in parks beyond that restricted by § 18.2-287.4.

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Mt Vernon .40 wrote:

Thanks for the reply and the McDonnell opinion (which provides it's own wealth of citations)

Three passages seem particularly germane to this "DGIF Question":

A person’s right to carry a firearm openly is considered universal within the Commonwealth, subject to definite and limited restrictions upon certain locations and classifications of individuals.

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There is no basis for an agency regulation where the legislature plainly, broadly, and comprehensively has addressed the same object.

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and

It is within the sole discretion of the General Assembly to limit the carrying of firearms in parks beyond that restricted by § 18.2-287.4.

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So based on reading that cite (18.2-287.4), how again can the DGIF pass / enforce those regulations? The sole discretion carry limits lies with the GA; not delegated to the DGIF.

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That AG opinion was written specifically re: DCR and state parks.

It basically stated that firearms control wasn't part of DCR's charter and therefore they couldn't just "wing it" themselves.

Whether DGIF has something additional in their charter which could be construed to allow them to restrict firearms is unknown to me.

However, given the "intent and spirit" of the GA when preemption was passed, it might be that DGIF simply has some old regulations still on the books which might need some "cleaning-up" to be in-compliance with "post-preemption" climate.

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An AG opinion is powerful, but it's not a law. OC in state parks at your own risk. I'll pass.

As for DGIF and preemption, preemption does not apply to the state code and administrative code.

This DGIF crap is something I've been trying to get a handle on for a long time. It's rediculous that we can OC in downtown Arlington but not in the middle of GW Natl. Forest 20 miles from the nearest town.

For whatever reason this issue has not recieved the full weight of Virginia's defense rights activists, probably because there are bigger fish to fry, and the fact that even among gunowners the prohibition on OC isn't very well-known. How many of you have OC'd in the woods and didn't know you were in violation of some silly reg? (Don't anwer that!)

I've never heard of anyone getting into trouble for OC'ing in the Natl. Forests, but that's not the point. As long as that reg exists we have to work to get rid of it and make OC as protected as CC for hikers and other outdoorsmen. If you've ever tried to CC while hiking on a warm day with shorts and a T-shirt while wearing a 40 lb pack on your pack you know how stupid this rule is.

I went to a DGIF hearing a couple of years ago to speak about this issue. PVC and one other VCDL member were there. The rest of the room was filled with country folk who were speaking about some new rule concerning deer hunting with dogs or some bullcrap. And I mean ALOT of guys, had to be well over a hundred!

Very few of whom seemed to give a crap about anything other than hunting.

And that's why we are stuck with these stupid regulations. Imagine if we could mobilize those kinds of numbers to show up and let DGIF know the rule's got to go. We even have an AG opinion to back us up.

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Tomahawk wrote:

... This DGIF crap is something I've been trying to get a handle on for a long time ...

... I went to a DGIF hearing a couple of years ago to speak about this issue. PVC and one other VCDL member were there ...

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Thanks for the confirmation that this rule REALLY is on the books.

And I suspect you're right about the "bigger fish" rationale as to why it's still there.

Once the firearms ban is formally lifted on NPS land this-coming February, that's one less reason DGIF can use as rationale to keep this rule on their books.

I find DGIFs "No loaded weapons in vehicles at any time (CHPs excepted)" provision particularly troubling given that National Forests often represent huge swaths of land criss-crossed by numerous public roads and highways w/o any such restrictions.

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I'm going to take a friend from Fairfax to the Bull Run Regional Park to shoot some trap this weekend, and I was wondering if anyone knew about their OC policy on VA Regional Parklands...

I have a NC CHP (which is recognized in VA). Can I only CC, or is OC alright, since I have the concealed permit?

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Dreamer wrote:

I'm going to take a friend from Fairfax to the Bull Run Regional Park to shoot some trap this weekend, and I was wondering if anyone knew about their OC policy on VA Regional Parklands...

I have a NC CHP (which is recognized in VA). Can I only CC, or is OC alright, since I have the concealed permit?

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It's owned/run by the Northern Virginia Regional Park Authority which is a conglomerate of local governments and is therefore preempted under 15.2-915 . OC is OK.