National Park Service whines new law allows Open Carry of weapons

FMCDH · Oct 23, 2009

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Superlite27 wrote:

Death Valley, which is in Nevada and California. Each state might have a different law regarding firearms and those would be reflected in park regulations.

Click to expand...

So how does this work? I can legally carry in Nevada. I can't in California.

It's a National Park within both states. Is there a dividing line in the park thatI can't cross? It's all one park, right?

So, if I enter the park in Nevada, I'm legal. As I travel westward, I will encounter where the border of California used to be. It is now a "National" park.

Are they going to put up a fence with gun buster signs? It then becomes divided into state sections.....effectively NO LONGER a"National" park. It is now a "state" park.

I can carry in the entire park, correct? Or can I?

I'm going to write some e-mails.

1. It would depend on the state parks laws for that state which that portion of the national park resides in. Both stateshappen to allow carry in state parks. For the case of Nevada and California, both states are OC states. California allows loaded OC in rural (un-incorporated)areas only, but Nevada allows any kind of OCjust about anywhere. Both states allow OCwithout a permit/license provided you follow their individual firearms laws (i.e. no mags that hold more than 10 round in California, etc.)

2. None that will be obvious or marked. Yes, its all still one park.

3. The border still exists and the border will probablyNOT be marked in the mass majority of areas.

4. No on the signs, and no, it will still be a national park with separate legal jurisdictions for each stateand county if it doesn't fall under federal jurisdiction.

5. Yes, depending on what you carry and how.

6. Good luck. Know the laws before you go. http://www.handgunlaw.us/

Sonora Rebel · Oct 23, 2009

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I've been traversing a National Park 'open 'heeled' for the past 5 years. I know I'm not the only one... OC or CC, Fed law or no Fed law. It's the only way in or out of here. (County Road) This CC only stuff is nuts. What... the animals will cower in fear like the 'sheeple' do? :uhoh:

XD Owner · Oct 23, 2009

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So, Agents of the Federal Government can enforce California state law in California? Do they get extra training on California state law if they transfer from a Federal National Park job in Wyoming to one in California?

Or can they detain you and call for California Highway Patrol or local county sheriffs to pick you up on a local violation?

I say let's work on a National Open and Conceal Carry Law. What makes Retired Law Enforcement, for example,MORE privileged than non-retired, non-Federal law Enforcement United States Citizens? The answer is 18 USC 926b and 926c.

Needs to be amended so it says Concealed Handgun Permit holders can carry as long as they have a valid permit from one of the states.

Keep chipping away at the infringements people!

Doug Huffman · Oct 23, 2009

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XD Owner wrote:

Needs to be amended so it says Concealed Handgun Permit holders can carry as long as they have a valid permit from one of the states.

Keep chipping away at the infringements people!

Like permitted CCW. the NRA sinecure?

Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth.

Tomahawk · Oct 23, 2009

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XD Owner wrote:

I say let's work on a National Open and Conceal Carry Law. What makes Retired Law Enforcement, for example,MORE privileged than non-retired, non-Federal law Enforcement United States Citizens?

I say let's repeal the law for LEOs and let the states work it out. Asking for federal gun legislation is like asking Dr. Kevorkian for medical advice.

About this business of "what about a park that straddles state lines?", well, what about it? There is a state line. If you cross it, you must obey the laws of the state you are in. If you can't figure out what state you're in, you got no business out in the woods. It's no different than being in any other rural area where there are no signs indicating the state line.

Agents of the federal government enforcing state law? Nothing new there, either. They are LEOs, they need to learn the laws that apply to their jurisdiction. If that includes state firearms codes, than stop whining, do your job, and learn it.

I have a feeling that there will be a few encounters in which they have to be set straight, just like so many small town PDs have had to learn about new gun laws.

Alexcabbie · Oct 23, 2009

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Now motorists who OC on the Virginia side of the Moat will be able to OC while traversing the GW Parkway, except where the Parkway crosses the "Boundary Channel" and runs thru DC for about a mile. AND there's a little trick in that Southbound in the AM, all the exits to get off before you cross into DC are closed going into Virginia. (Basically you need to get off at the Rt. 50/Roosevelt Bridge exit toward Virginia and take 50 West to Washington Blvd to 395. and go north to the Airport exit and pick up the Parkway there. Northbound exit to Southbound 395 to 110 West and exit at Rosslyn and follow the signs to the Parkway.) Miss one exit and you are a felon. Good luck.

XD Owner · Oct 24, 2009

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Mr. Huffman,

I agree with your goal, but like someone once said, the journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step, hence my call to keep "chipping away" at the infringements.

When we have a Federal law saying states must acceptgun permits from all states, then we move to the next step, like repealing the prohibition of lawful carriage of guns in post offices andfederally funded universities, etc. Then someday, maybe ten, twenty, fifty years from now, a law can be passed saying states cannot prohibit non-prohibited persons from possessing, transporting, sellingfirearms, ammunition, etc. Call it National Firearms Pre-Emption. This will require more court battles such as winning McDonald vs. Chicago. (NRA vs. Chicago is pending a petition for certiorari.) Get 2A incorporated against the states, and keep on fighting the gun banners.

The Wolfhound · Oct 24, 2009

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Well in that future world "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". Oh wait we have that now. How did we get in this mess to begin with? The 2nd Ammendment does not have the restriction of "Congress shall not.....". The right is not to be infringed, by anyone, any level of government, ever, period . Keep standing up and push to remove any jugde of legislator who fails to get the concept.

Mike · Oct 24, 2009

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XD Owner wrote:

So, Agents of the Federal Government can enforce California state law in California?

yes of course - assimilated crimes act.

Nutczak · Oct 24, 2009

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toting firearms openly will be allowed, , visitors would be able to pack heat

could brandish rifles and sidearms.

poachers wandering the woods with impunity.

“If, in Wyoming, it says you can walk down the street with a firearm strapped to your waist

. “Parks are some of the safest places in the country. people could be walking around possibly carrying a rifle,” Faehner said. “That changes the dynamics of the park experience.”

increase in violent crimes in parks, Faehner said he’s worried about wildlife.

“It’s going to be very interesting to see how it all plays out in terms of poaching,” he said. “I think there are individuals who could be getting a lot closer to wildlife.”

“Having a firearm gives some people a false sense of security,” but there are going to be some people who push the envelope.”

concerned for human safety and wildlife protection

I am sure you noticed I put certain words and phrases in boldface type.

the things I highlighted seem to all come from the "Liberal anti-gun/anti-freedom thesaurus" that obviously get handed out freely to all reporters and most government employee's.

or do they research these terms online, so they can use them and the rhetoric in the most threatening manner.

The only phrase they forgot to use out of their liberal playbook is "We are doing this to protect the children!"

I am right down the road from a national forest, good thing they do not try and ban firearms there, because that is where I do a good amount of hunting!!

edited for spelling

Tomahawk · Oct 24, 2009

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Nutczak wrote:

the "Liberal anti-gun/anti-freedom thesaurus"

You know, we should write one of those, make it in pdf format so it can be printed out. Would be kind of funny.

rpyne · Oct 26, 2009

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IDAHO COWBOY wrote:

If you’re in Yellowstone, you have to know whether you’re standing in Wyoming, Idaho or Montana,” he said. “Please, please, please, if you’re going to travel with a firearm, know the laws. Know what you should be doing and what you can’t do. That way you won’t be disappointed.”

All three states allow open carry. If you follow Montana's restrictions on where carry is legal and if you are concealing, make sure you have a permit recognized by Wyoming and you are good to go for the whole park.

paramedic70002 · Oct 30, 2009

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An added snag...

Does a National Park recognize the state's general laws or it's park laws in relation to lawful carry?

rpyne · Oct 30, 2009

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Here is the actual text of the operative portion as it was signed in to law:

(b) Protecting the Right of Individuals To Bear arms in Units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System- The Secretary of the Interior shall not promulgate or enforce any regulation that prohibits an individual from possessing a firearm including an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System if--

(1) the individual is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm; and

(2) the possession of the firearm is in compliance with the law of the State in which the unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System is located.

Note that it only deals with possession, not use, of firearms. It does not directly allow firearms, it prohibits creating or enforcing rules that prohibit possession.

Too bad it wasn't written to apply to all federal lands and facilities.

If anyone wants to read the entire bill, it can be found at http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-627

CJ · Oct 30, 2009

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Superlite27 wrote:

Death Valley, which is in Nevada and California. Each state might have a different law regarding firearms and those would be reflected in park regulations.

Click to expand...

So how does this work? I can legally carry in Nevada. I can't in California.

It's a National Park within both states. Is there a dividing line in the park thatI can't cross? It's all one park, right?

So, if I enter the park in Nevada, I'm legal. As I travel westward, I will encounter where the border of California used to be. It is now a "National" park.

Are they going to put up a fence with gun buster signs? It then becomes divided into state sections.....effectively NO LONGER a"National" park. It is now a "state" park.

I can carry in the entire park, correct? Or can I?

I'm going to write some e-mails.

The parts in CA will be under CA laws.

CA allows (loaded)open carry in certain rural areas. I'm not sure if Death Valley fits or not though. Their law is quite restrictive and really limits where it's possible, as might be expected...though you could fall back on the unloaded open carry if necessary...

Mike · Oct 30, 2009

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paramedic70002 wrote:

An added snag...

Does a National Park recognize the state's general laws or it's park laws in relation to lawful carry?

if the state bans carry in a national park, then banned - if merely banned in state parks, then no, not banned in fed parks.

Sonora Rebel · Oct 30, 2009

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Much doubtful you'd have any kind of LEO encounter in Death Valley... the Hoover Wilderness or any number of 'middle of nowhere' places unless you prefer the 'campground' scene. Dudley Doorite stays close to the coffee 'n donuts.

Statesman · Oct 30, 2009

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However, Skaggs said some rules do differ in the park compared to the rest of the state.

“They cannot use it or display it in a threatening manner, and they cannot discharge it unless their personal safety is in question,” she said.

HUH? Is she saying it's ok to display it in a threatening manner and discharge a gun in the rest of the state ?!

possumboy · Oct 30, 2009

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The Wolfhound wrote:

Virginia is an open carry friendly state, I wonder what this bodes for Shenandoah National Park. Heh, heh, heh....... Stand by for more whining when our "betters" figure this one out

Virginia still requires CC in State Parks. That is something that is being worked out.

The AG issued an opinion (http://www.oag.state.va.us/OPINIONS/2008opns/08-043-Cuccinelli.pdf) that states he believes the Park cannot enforce it.

I cannot find the reference right now, but I believe Gov. Kaine then issued a memo stating that they were to enforce the ban on OC.

darthmord · Oct 30, 2009

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possumboy wrote:

The Wolfhound wrote:

Virginia is an open carry friendly state, I wonder what this bodes for Shenandoah National Park. Heh, heh, heh....... Stand by for more whining when our "betters" figure this one out

Click to expand...

Virginia still requires CC in State Parks. That is something that is being worked out.

The AG issued an opinion (http://www.oag.state.va.us/OPINIONS/2008opns/08-043-Cuccinelli.pdf) that states he believes the Park cannot enforce it.

I cannot find the reference right now, but I believe Gov. Kaine then issued a memo stating that they were to enforce the ban on OC.

Back in mid-late July 09, I posted a picture of the signage used at Smith Mountain Lake (VA State Park) that said carry of firearms was prohibited except for those with a Concealed Handgun Permit.

It made **NO** mention of mode of carry.

National Park Service whines new law allows Open Carry of weapons

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